East Midlands Railway - being a pain over Delay Repay

[BluePenguin]

Good evening,

I have received an email back from EMR regarding my recent delay repay claim and I am not pleased. They have asked for a defaced/torn photo of the ticket in question. I do not have the ticket anymore. Not once in all my years of travelling and submitting claims have I ever been asked to submit this before. I believe it to be a ridiculous expectation, especially as the barriers at the destination usually swallow the ticket. None of the other TOCS seem to require this. I believe EMR are trying to get out of paying what they owe, which is wrong.

Surely they must still accept my claim? I have 10 days to respond apparently.

Thank you in advance for any help

 

[Bletchleyite]

About half the TOCs seem to ask that the uploaded photo is defaced (it seems to be an Abellio thing). This is always made clear in the instructions for the ones that do (e.g. LNR/WMT).

I think you'll have to take this one on the chin for not having read it properly when you submitted your claim.

Add to that - all sites ask that you retain the physlcal ticket until the claim has been approved because they reserve the right to ask for it to be posted, if I recall.

Edit: hang on, are you saying TOCs don't ask for any photo of the ticket for a claim? This is wrong unless it's an e-ticket (as they can cancel that electronically to prevent it being submitted for refund or re-used*). When making a claim on a paper ticket all TOCs require a photo to be submitted; the Abellio TOCs like it defaced, others seemingly not. When intending to claim, you need to pass the barriers by way of the staff stating that you need to keep the ticket for a Delay Repay claim and this will not be refused, it'll probably be the 10th time that day at least they have had such a request and it's hardly new.

* Though in my experience at least some TOCs ask for a PDF of the e-ticket to be attached.

 

[BluePenguin]

What if the Off Peak Return is still in use for a break of journey?

I did read website at the time. Having made several claims over the years this has never been an issue before. This seems to be yet another reason to dislike Abellio

I will make a complaint and in future hold onto tickets until the claim has gone through. They should really put signs up at stations warning people.

Edit - No I am not saying that. I did submit a photo of the ticket. They didn’t accept it because it wasn’t torn in half or scribbled on. I am saying I have never been asked to do this before.

 

[Nova1]

Strangely I have submitted delay repay (West Midlands Railway) on paper tickets several times and always received a warning about "next time the ticket needs to be defaced" but it's been accepted.

Seems weird having to deface the ticket (especially when they are dated singles that can only be used on one day).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if the Off Peak Return is still in use for a break of journey?

You claim only once the journey is fully complete.

I did read website at the time. Having made several claims over the years this has never been an issue before. This seems to be yet another reason to dislike Abellio

I have never made a Delay Repay claim with any TOC for a paper ticket without being required to send a photograph of it.

I will make a complaint and in future hold onto tickets until the claim has gone through. They should really put signs up at stations warning people.

Why would anyone think they could claim for something without having evidence to support their claim?

 

[Gloster]

As I will be restarting travelling soon, this has prompted me to look into Delay Repay, starting with South Western Railway. When they refer to a scan of the ticket accompanying a postal claim, which is how I would have to do it, do they accept simple photocopies?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strangely I have submitted delay repay (West Midlands Railway) on paper tickets several times and always received a warning about "next time the ticket needs to be defaced" but it's been accepted.

Seems weird having to deface the ticket (especially when they are dated singles that can only be used on one day).

The defacing thing is a bit odd, yes, but the OP seems to be suggesting they didn't think they needed to submit it at all, which is a bit bizarre, as all TOCs require submission of a photograph of the ticket when claiming Delay Repay on a paper ticket.

As I will be restarting travelling soon, this has prompted me to look into Delay Repay, starting with South Western Railway. When they refer to a scan of the ticket accompanying a postal claim, which is how I would have to do it, do they accept simple photocopies?

When I last posted one in (which is a long time ago, why do that costing you about 70p when you can do it electronically costing £0?) I sent the actual ticket and kept a photocopy.

 

[BluePenguin]

Look please:

I have received an email back from EMR regarding my recent delay repay claim and I am not pleased. They have asked for a defaced/torn photo of the ticket in question

It goes without saying that I did submit a photo of the ticket which is very clearly implied.

I have never made a Delay Repay claim with any TOC for a paper ticket without being required to send a photograph of it.

Obviously I needed to submit a photo of the ticket which I did, they did not accept the photo because it was not scribbled on

but the OP seems to be suggesting they didn't think they needed to submit it at all, which is a bit bizarre, as all TOCs require submission of a photograph of the ticket when claiming Delay Repay on a paper ticket.

Please don’t put words in my mouth, I’m not suggesting I don’t think anything had to be submitted. The form itself requires a photo of the ticket to be submitted, which you know that I know.

Right, for the avoidance of any doubt.
- I filled all of my details correctly with the time, date and explanation of my journey.

- I submitted a photo of the outward and return tickets on the table clearly showing the details.
- I do not have these tickets anymore.
- I received an email asking me to send another photo of the tickets either torn up or scribbled on.
- I cannot do this because of the above

All I am concerned about is why Abellio have taken it upon themselves to introduce this fancy bizarre condition that no other TOCs have ever bothered me with before. I thought the delay repay conditions had been finally harmonised although clearly not

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, thanks for the clarification. The reason for me having misinterpreted you, to be fair, is because you were speaking about barriers retaining the ticket, which would stop you submitting any photo of it, and you can't submit until you've completed your journey as you can't know until then for certain what level of compensation will be due (unless you've already tipped over 2 hours I suppose).

I would appeal to their better judgement by explaining that you no longer have them. If they accept that, great. If they don't, the lesson is to read the Delay Repay submission form before submitting as in my experience it's clear enough on the Abellio ones.

 

[BluePenguin]

Thank you for your reply, I will see if I can appeal to their better judgement else try going down the formal complaint route.

Are Abellio allowed to create their own conditions in this way? I will definitely be very careful in future and will hold onto my tickets until the money is in my account

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you for your reply, I will see if I can appeal to their better judgement else try going down the formal complaint route.

Are Abellio allowed to create their own conditions in this way? I will definitely be very careful in future and will hold onto my tickets until the money is in my account

I believe the process for Delay Repay is down to the TOC, yes, provided there is a process.

Personally I always keep the physical ticket pinned to my notice board in the kitchen until the money hits my bank account (this also serves as a reminder to chase it if for any reason it isn't paid). Some would suggest going even further than that (there's a thread on DR fraud investigations somewhere that goes into this).

 

[Qwerty133]

Thank you for your reply, I will see if I can appeal to their better judgement else try going down the formal complaint route.

Are Abellio allowed to create their own conditions in this way? I will definitely be very careful in future and will hold onto my tickets until the money is in my account

The requirement to deface a ticket in order to claim delay repay is almost certainly not a Abellio creation. I am pretty sure that Arriva Crosscountry used to ask for tickets to be cut in half long before Abellio had been awarded any solo franchises in the UK.

 

[Skymonster]

With a photo editing program and a bit of care a digital image of a ticket can be convincingly defaced (although torn would be more of a challenge) - in fact, I seem to recall someone on here saying they’d done just such a few weeks ago.

 

[Watershed]

EMR's Passenger's Charter - which defines how the legal entitlement to Delay Repay arises - does not state anything about having to deface the ticket to make a claim. In fact it almost contradicts this, stating you need a "legible photo image". Other industries or TOCs might consider a defaced ticket illegible and thus ineligible for compensation!

Whilst of course you're going to have a much easier time if you do deface your ticket as they request, they cannot deny your claim for not having defaced your ticket. You should appeal the rejection, asking them to point out where in the Passenger's Charter this requirement is stated (hint: it's not).

In my experience they tend to relent after this, but it's an unnecessary and unjustified inconvenience to have to go through.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just Photoshop the original image to put a big scribble on it. You can do it on MS Paint. Life is too short to care too much about stuff like this.

 

[LowLevel]

If it's declined put in an appeal explaining that you don't have the ticket, and for the first instance they should pay anyway. If that doesn't work email customer relations with the case reference.

 

[skyhigh]

Good evening,

I have received an email back from EMR regarding my recent delay repay claim and I am not pleased. They have asked for a defaced/torn photo of the ticket in question. I do not have the ticket anymore. Not once in all my years of travelling and submitting claims have I ever been asked to submit this before. I believe it to be a ridiculous expectation, especially as the barriers at the destination usually swallow the ticket. None of the other TOCS seem to require this. I believe EMR are trying to get out of paying what they owe, which is wrong.

Surely they must still accept my claim? I have 10 days to respond apparently.

Thank you in advance for any help

On the EMR claim form:

Please upload a photo of your ticket. This should be your ticket for travel and not your seat reservation or receipt. Please cut your ticket in half or deface it, unless it is still in use (i.e season ticket).

It seems fairly clear to me.

 

[Skymonster]

It doesn’t say upload a picture of the cut or defaced ticket. It says upload a photo of the ticket. Then in a subsequent sentence it says cut the ticket or deface it. It would be reasonable for the claimant to assume EMR wanted an image of the ticket, and THEN ONCE THAT‘S BEEN UPLOADED the ticket should but cut or defaced.

 

[Watershed]

On the EMR claim form:


View attachment 101581

It seems fairly clear to me.

They can't impose additional conditions or provisos on claiming Delay Repay after the contract has been made.

 

[ta-toget]

They can't impose additional conditions or provisos on claiming Delay Repay after the contract has been made.

And I note that they don't directly mention a requirement for tickets to be defaced in their Passengers' Charter, which is where the arrangements for Delay Repay are set out. They only mention that:

It will usually be quicker and easier to apply online or via the app as you will not need to post anything to us. We will need a legible photo image of your ticket.

They do also say:

There is a link on our website homepage and details of the process of how to claim.

However, I am not sure whether these further details are legally binding or not.

 

[island]

They can't impose additional conditions or provisos on claiming Delay Repay after the contract has been made.

The contract (the NRCoT) states at 33.1 that you must provide (i.e. give or send) your ticket to the TOC when making a claim.

Nothing in the contract requires the TOC to accept a copy, photograph, etc. of the ticket, so if they choose to do so, they can require the ticket to be defaced or torn if they so choose.

 

[Skymonster]

For goodness sake - 30 seconds of judicious use of a photo editor and the problem goes away

 

[zero]

For goodness sake - 30 seconds of judicious use of a photo editor and the problem goes away

Yup, I use MSPaint to draw a black line through my tickets and they have always been accepted by EMR (one time it was accepted automatically and paid out almost instantly, which I posted on another thread)

The first time I claimed from EMR I didn't do that and they wrote back saying they accepted it "on this occasion" but to deface the ticket in the future.

 

[BluePenguin]

For goodness sake - 30 seconds of judicious use of a photo editor and the problem goes away

Does it not look obvious though?

 

[ta-toget]

Does it not look obvious though?

I imagine in depends how long either you spend doing it, or they spend checking it (I doubt they spend much time checking how it was defaced). However, I can't see there being any advantage to digitally defacing it, compared to actually defacing it, though, assuming you remember to do so.

 

[D365]

Somewhat off-topic, but is it only me who keeps my tickets until I have received the expected reimbursement?

 

[Blinkbonny]

Somewhat off-topic, but is it only me who keeps my tickets until I have received the expected reimbursement?

Or is it only me that keeps all my tickets FOREVER!

 

[yorkie]

For goodness sake - 30 seconds of judicious use of a photo editor and the problem goes away

This is only the case if EMR do not realise that a photo editor has been used.

I've self-taught myself how to use Photoshop over the past ~10 years and have designed a professional logo that was used by a company for about a year and I also teach youngsters how to use Photoshop and I therefore reckon I could do a good enough job that a TOC would not be able to detect I had done this.

But out of principle I would refuse for two reasons: firstly, it is an unreasonable request and secondly, if they did detect what had happened they would continue to reject the claim and you'd no longer have the moral upper hand.

If EMR won't be reasonable, I would take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman:

Start a Complaint - Rail Ombudsman

rail ombudsman customer complaints

www.railombudsman.org

 

[Wallsendmag]

I believe defacing is to stop the ticket being submitted for a refund as well as delay repay. You’d be surprised how many ticket are.

 

[BluePenguin]

I believe defacing is to stop the ticket being submitted for a refund as well as delay repay. You’d be surprised how many ticket are.

Some people have a lot of nerve, surely they can very easily be caught doing that if the original payment method is known?