East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[43066]

We can of course hope that EMR are using the maximum capacity round the diversion, but when the ECML diverts via Lincoln we see the same thing, restrictions on tickets.

Part of the problem is that the diversion is lengthy and slow, also that EMR’s intercity fleet is thinly stretched and inadequate in terms of capacity on “normal” weekends.

There are also (AIUI) more weekends nowadays where trains will end up rammed with sports fans due to promotion/relegation of various football teams, so it’s a bit of a perfect storm. The 810s will improve things but complete fleet replacement is likely still a couple of years away.

Where trains are shown as "Sold Out" on websites it is normally possible to buy a walk-up ticket from ticket offices.

Indeed. There’s nothing to suggest that isn’t the case here. As a passenger I’d much rather know in advance which trains are likely to be the worst affected by crowding, though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would this go about happening if the 170s don’t have reservation systems and the fleet is so inconsistent I’m not sure that all of them have paper holders either?

If you make reservation fully compulsory then you don't need to mark them. Eurostar for instance don't.

Unfortunately the railway has already sought to abuse the compulsory reservation flag to mean "don't sell a ticket without a reservation" rather than fixing it properly, and as a result nobody will believe them and there will be problems.

Indeed. There’s nothing to suggest that isn’t the case here. As a passenger I’d much rather know in advance which trains are likely to be the worst affected by crowding, though!

Several European railways do this by publishing crowding/expected crowding icons on their planners.

 

[43066]

If you make reservation fully compulsory then you don't need to mark them. Eurostar for instance don't.

Unfortunately the railway has already sought to abuse the compulsory reservation flag to mean "don't sell a ticket without a reservation" rather than fixing it properly, and as a result nobody will believe them and there will be problems.

Very few people (least of all the industry’s pay masters) seriously think we should have compulsory reservations as a general rule on the UK railway.

In circumstances such as the weekend being discussed I don’t really see any objection to showing certain trains as “sold out”. If you turn up with an open ticket you can try your luck, but, if you find yourself being denied travel due to overcrowding, you can hardly complain. Most sensible people with tickets valid on multiple services will naturally try to avoid these trains.

 

[liamf656]

Several European railways do this by publishing crowding/expected crowding icons on their planners.

EMR do this with their “seat finder” tool however I fear it’s out of date, and quite a few intercity trains are missing from the page

 

[Mikey C]

But from a passenger perspective, does "sold out" mean that you won't get a seat, or that you won't even get on?

 

[BJames]

But from a passenger perspective, does "sold out" mean that you won't get a seat, or that you won't even get on?

On EMR I am taking it to mean all the reserved seats are taken - not aware of plans to physically prevent people from boarding (although if queuing systems are being put in place at St Pancras it could potentially be a bit of a challenge...?) - there are always a number of unreserved seats (and 180-run services do not issue reserved seats at all).

 

[Gaelan]

In circumstances such as the weekend being discussed I don’t really see any objection to showing certain trains as “sold out”. If you turn up with an open ticket you can try your luck, but, if you find yourself being denied travel due to overcrowding, you can hardly complain. Most sensible people with tickets valid on multiple services will naturally try to avoid these trains.

It seems to me that the most reasonable solution to trains with no reservations available is to quote the walk-up price, with a prominent warning along the lines of "This train is likely to be very busy. You will not have a reserved seat and may need to stand." Hopefully that will successfully dissuade anyone who doesn't have a very good reason to be on that specific train (say, they have a tight schedule and it's the only one that works), without needing people to understand intricacies of the ticketing system if they do have a good reason.

Of course, some care would also need to be taken to only show this message when it's true, and not (for example) when advances aren't on sale yet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, some care would also need to be taken to only show this message when it's true, and not (for example) when advances aren't on sale yet!

Now social distancing is long done with, it appears this feature is mostly being done to allow trains to be placed on sale when the TOC is ready, e.g. when they're sure there won't be engineering works affecting them. This used to draw a lot of complaint* so is a "benign" use of the feature. Unfortunately the feature doesn't allow differentiation between "we won't let you on without a reservation", "we don't want to open this train for sale yet because we might change its timings" and "we want to limit the number of tickets sold with a contract to travel on this train", three totally different things. This is really quite unhelpful and puts people off when they see "sold out" meaning "not on sale yet". And if they plan to use it to mean "no reservation means you won't get on" on any services, then they're going to have issues.

* Both because people got cross at the times changing, often very unfavourably, and because they'd buy an Anytime Single at some horrible rate and then later find a £20 Advance pops up. Both of those were very bad publicity for the railway.

 

[dosxuk]

But from a passenger perspective, does "sold out" mean that you won't get a seat, or that you won't even get on?

With EMR at St Pancras - it depends. If things are disrupted, even having a reservation is no guarantee of being allowed to board your intended service - you're quite likely to turn up to the station in good time, to find the area beyond the gates is full of people for other / open services and that you're not allowed through until the train is announced, and then be told that the train is full before you get to it and have to wait for the next one.

Expect a scrum, expect loads of angry people and expect that you'll just be happy to be getting out of there on whatever train you can eventually fit on. Or find an alternative way of travelling.

 

[Mikey C]

With EMR at St Pancras - it depends. If things are disrupted, even having a reservation is no guarantee of being allowed to board your intended service - you're quite likely to turn up to the station in good time, to find the area beyond the gates is full of people for other / open services and that you're not allowed through until the train is announced, and then be told that the train is full before you get to it and have to wait for the next one.

Expect a scrum, expect loads of angry people and expect that you'll just be happy to be getting out of there on whatever train you can eventually fit on. Or find an alternative way of travelling.

STP can be a nightmare, but for someone able bodied wanting to go say from Leicester to Nottingham, they'd be happy to stand for the journey rather than wait if they could squeeze onboard.

 

[43066]

It seems to me that the most reasonable solution to trains with no reservations available is to quote the walk-up price, with a prominent warning along the lines of "This train is likely to be very busy. You will not have a reserved seat and may need to stand."

The problem with this is that there’s a non negligible chance that they won’t be able to travel on that service at all, and people who had been perfectly willing to stand would feel mislead if they were refused boarding. Hence the stronger “sold out” is more appropriate.

 

[Failed Unit]

EMR do this with their “seat finder” tool however I fear it’s out of date, and quite a few intercity trains are missing from the page

It is out of date. Many trains on Grimsby - Leicester are now 3 cars. But still shown as 2 on the tool.

 

[Gaelan]

The problem with this is that there’s a non negligible chance that they won’t be able to travel on that service at all, and people who had been perfectly willing to stand would feel mislead if they were refused boarding. Hence the stronger “sold out” is more appropriate.

That’s a good point. I guess you could make the wording “may need to stand or travel on a later service”?

I recognize that there’s a desire to direct passengers to less-busy services. Reasonably so! But I’d like to think it’s possible to do so while still accurately informing people as to their options, trusting them to make reasonable decisions, and not requiring people to have a detailed knowledge of train ticketing.

 

[43066]

That’s a good point. I guess you could make the wording “may need to stand or travel on a later service”?

I recognize that there’s a desire to direct passengers to less-busy services. Reasonably so! But I’d like to think it’s possible to do so while still accurately informing people as to their options, trusting them to make reasonable decisions, and not requiring people to have a detailed knowledge of train ticketing.

Yes indeed. It’s a tricky balancing act, and I’m glad I’m not responsible for getting it right!

 

[185143]

If you make reservation fully compulsory then you don't need to mark them. Eurostar for instance don't.

Unfortunately the railway has already sought to abuse the compulsory reservation flag to mean "don't sell a ticket without a reservation" rather than fixing it properly, and as a result nobody will believe them and there will be problems.



Several European railways do this by publishing crowding/expected crowding icons on their planners.

Neither do Caledonian Sleeper, FWIW.

Or any airline ever.

 

[miklcct]

What has happened at St Pancras today? There is crowd control again and I'm stuck now, and I am regretting making the journey.

What I did was that I brought my bike to park at St Pancras and changed to the tube without it afterwards for a cross to Victoria. I thought doing that because only one train every 30 minutes calls at Cricklewood and I can get off and ride home from West Hampstead in case I get a fast train.

And it turns out that the bike parking is so inconvenient at St Pancras that it's a complete waste of time to put my bike there, and on the return journey, the lift closer to the EMR platform is blocked due to crowd control and I have to use the one beyond the Eurostar buffer, then by the time I reached the crowd a slow Thameslink train has just gone while there is still a large crowd held outside the barrier in the Thameslink queue, which results me wasted a lot of time compared to cycling straight to West Hampstead and put my bike there, where I have 3 options to connect to the Southern service.

I have never encountered such crowd control before on days when the Thameslink core was closed. What has happened.

 

[liamf656]

What has happened at St Pancras today? There is crowd control again and I'm stuck now, and I am regretting making the journey.

All EMR services out of London were halved due to Thameslink needing the upstairs platform. As well as Sheffield playing at Wembley and the London Marathon, it was a bad mix of reasons.

There was crowd control at both London and Sheffield and EMR put on a few extra unadvertised services as well as making sure every single intercity service was 7/10 car so it seems to have been managed the best it could be

 

[TheBigD]

All of the Sheffield or Nottingham services are shown as either 5 or 7 car. No double units in operation today (Sunday).

 

[BJames]

All of the Sheffield or Nottingham services are shown as either 5 or 7 car. No double units in operation today (Sunday).

What actually is the reason that EMR are back to 5 cars today on every service? Is there some prohibiting factor to do with the fact that the Corby diversions are taking place, although I can't work out what it is? Sundays usually see multiple double units in operation, and yet the service is halved and 5/7 car, again...

 

[ChrisC]

What actually is the reason that EMR are back to 5 cars today on every service? Is there some prohibiting factor to do with the fact that the Corby diversions are taking place, although I can't work out what it is? Sundays usually see multiple double units in operation, and yet the service is halved and 5/7 car, again...

This is what concerns me regarding the future after the introduction of the bi mode 810’s. There have been lots of comments about not enough units being ordered and the fact that they are all only 5 car units. I fully understand that they have a much higher capacity than a 222 but will that be enough? It has been said that many service will run as double units but in reality that does not always happen and EMR could, as they are doing today, regularly just run 5 carriage trains instead of doubling up.

 

[43066]

There have been lots of comments about not enough units being ordered and the fact that they are all only 5 car units. I fully understand that they have a much higher capacity than a 222 but will that be enough?

Long term, almost certainly not.

 

[dosxuk]

Long term, almost certainly not.

Medium term, probably not.

 

[paddy1]

This is what concerns me regarding the future after the introduction of the bi mode 810’s. There have been lots of comments about not enough units being ordered and the fact that they are all only 5 car units. I fully understand that they have a much higher capacity than a 222 but will that be enough? It has been said that many service will run as double units but in reality that does not always happen and EMR could, as they are doing today, regularly just run 5 carriage trains instead of doubling up.

EMR could double up many London services now, but don't. They leave units lying in the sidings at Cricklewood all day solely to use during the peaks. Stagecoach did the same when they ran it as EMR; HST's and 5 and 7 car Meridians lying in the sidings at Cricklewood most of the day while passengers were crammed into 4 or 5 car Meridians off peak, as well as lots of Sunday services formed of only 4 or 5 car Meridians. I really can't see EMR suddenly wanting to double everything up just because they get new 5 car trains, when they're not doing it now with existing units that have fewer seats than the new ones.

 

[Bartsimho]

EMR could double up many London services now, but don't. They leave units lying in the sidings at Cricklewood all day solely to use during the peaks. Stagecoach did the same when they ran it as EMR; HST's and 5 and 7 car Meridians lying in the sidings at Cricklewood most of the day while passengers were crammed into 4 or 5 car Meridians off peak, as well as lots of Sunday services formed of only 4 or 5 car Meridians. I really can't see EMR suddenly wanting to double everything up just because they get new 5 car trains, when they're not doing it now with existing units that have fewer seats than the new ones.

As a potential question could they have Doubled up the services to Split them at Leicester with one going to Nottingham and one to Sheffield? Would that help with the crowding as while it would be the same capacity available it is spread into more timings which could help with queue build-up and then a crush to get onto the trains at STP?

 

[InTheEastMids]

As a potential question could they have Doubled up the services to Split them at Leicester with one going to Nottingham and one to Sheffield? Would that help with the crowding as while it would be the same capacity available it is spread into more timings which could help with queue build-up and then a crush to get onto the trains at STP?

I'm not sure what this would achieve. The Sheffield & Nottingham trains are flighted together leaving St Pancras at XX02/32 to Sheffield and XX05/35 to Nottingham. So you can sort-of imagine that they are joined, just by a coupling that's about 3 minutes long!

As a reasonably regular traveller, the St Pancras issues are not - in my experience - due to enormous numbers of people (obviously Easter was exceptional)
1- that the two trains start boarding at around the same time - and when boarding starts, it's the ticket gate capacity that is the rate determining step
2- It's not possible to allow boarding to start too early because turnaround times are quite short
3- the area where people wait is quite constricted by the design of the station
4- People don't want to wait further away from the platforms (and I don't think the design of the station is particularly helpful here)

No cheap & easy solution to the issues at St Pancras, otherwise I reckon they'd have been done.

 

[BJames]

I'm not sure what this would achieve. The Sheffield & Nottingham trains are flighted together leaving St Pancras at XX02/32 to Sheffield and XX05/35 to Nottingham. So you can sort-of imagine that they are joined, just by a coupling that's about 3 minutes long!

As a reasonably regular traveller, the St Pancras issues are not - in my experience - due to enormous numbers of people (obviously Easter was exceptional)
1- that the two trains start boarding at around the same time - and when boarding starts, it's the ticket gate capacity that is the rate determining step
2- It's not possible to allow boarding to start too early because turnaround times are quite short
3- the area where people wait is quite constricted by the design of the station
4- People don't want to wait further away from the platforms (and I don't think the design of the station is particularly helpful here)

No cheap & easy solution to the issues at St Pancras, otherwise I reckon they'd have been done.

1: Absolutely agree. It is often exactly the same time as well, which, given the departure times of the Corbys at xx:15/45, means every single person waiting outside the concourse then wants to get through. I have occasionally seen staff allow the wide-aisle gate on the 'exit' side be used to clear backlog.

2: While this isn't always the case there are some particular notable issues (e.g. the arrival at 1254 for the 1305 NOT departure - the arrival is often late and on the 'A' end of the platform as well)

Re. 4 I agree, I want to be waiting nearby so I can board immediately.

I do think though that there are often enormous numbers of people - when one of the cl 180s was running round with just 4 carriages, it was regularly full & standing in shoulder peaks 10 minutes prior to departure. When there are issues over the road at King's Cross, STP becomes absolutely overwhelmed.

The above suggestion about splitting at Leicester would likely yield little benefit (as mentioned above because of the flighting) - far better to run 10 cars from the get-go on as many known crowded services as possible during the week. Weekend travel experience now suggests that weekend services really need every (available) unit out where possible.

 

[paddy1]

As a potential question could they have Doubled up the services to Split them at Leicester with one going to Nottingham and one to Sheffield? Would that help with the crowding as while it would be the same capacity available it is spread into more timings which could help with queue build-up and then a crush to get onto the trains at STP?

I think the splitting and joining at Leicester has been looked at before and they decided against it due to the extra time taken to spilt and join and the knock on effects for capacity, punctuality, reliability etc if the units to be split or joined are running late

 

[TheBigD]

As a reasonably regular traveller, the St Pancras issues are not - in my experience - due to enormous numbers of people (obviously Easter was exceptional)
1- that the two trains start boarding at around the same time - and when boarding starts, it's the ticket gate capacity that is the rate determining step
2- It's not possible to allow boarding to start too early because turnaround times are quite short
3- the area where people wait is quite constricted by the design of the station
4- People don't want to wait further away from the platforms (and I don't think the design of the station is particularly helpful here)

No cheap & easy solution to the issues at St Pancras, otherwise I reckon they'd have been done.

I'd add a few more to that list...

No segregation of arriving and departing passengers.
Halving of the service whenever Thameslink need to use St Pancras.
The lack of resilience when disruption occurs as the concourse quickly becomes overcrowded.

As for what's needed at St Pancras, perhaps a separate thread on the speculative section?