East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[tspaul26]

its what they said on bbc three counties news in the afternoon on tuesday.

Who said what?

 

[zwk500]

Who said what?

Richard Fuller MP's speech from the Westminster Hall debate from Hansard (selected quotes):

Richard Fuller

The hon. Lady is absolutely right, and that is why I circulated a letter, which all parties have signed, calling for exactly that: a greener alternative that focuses on sustainable growth and the work-life patterns that people want, not a 19th-century solution that is supposed to unlock growth on an unproven model.

One could sense the political support ebbing away from East West Rail as the announcement was made.
[...]
The Minister will know that we had elections recently, and that they have brought political change. [...] Does the Minister appreciate the current scale of interest in alternatives to the project, given these political changes?
[...]
The route chosen by East West Rail is so full of twists and turns, and ups and downs, that it surely competes with what is probably our country’s bendiest road, the B3081 at Cann Common in Dorset—I am not sure whether the Minister knew that—which “twists and turns more than many an Alpine climb.”

Those words could be applied to the route chosen by East West Rail. Back in the Victorian age, when Governments and others knew how to build railways, they chose a straighter, less hilly route.*[See footnote]

One of the principals behind the campaign, BFARe, Bedford For a Re Consultation, wrote to tell me:
[...]
I will spend some time on the cost-benefit analysis, because I think it is an open secret that nobody thinks that East West Rail is financially viable.
[...]
We all know the real reason behind all of this: it is about housing. A constituent wrote to me saying:

“From the economic and technical report, it is clear that Bedford is viewed as simply a cheaper housing estate separate from where all the jobs are expected to be—in and around Cambridge. So what’s in this for Bedford?”

* - I do find this statement hilarious in the context of Bedford being on the Midland Main Line, let alone the history of early railways deliberately taking much windier routes.

And to end, a Coup de Grace of total contempt for the truth:

I am not a nimby on housing

It is fair to say Mr Fuller's public position is far from supportive of EWR.

 

[tspaul26]

Richard Fuller MP's speech from the Westminster Hall debate from Hansard (selected quotes):

* - I do find this statement hilarious in the context of Bedford being on the Midland Main Line, let alone the history of early railways deliberately taking much windier routes.

And to end, a Coup de Grace of total contempt for the truth:


It is fair to say Mr Fuller's public position is far from supportive of EWR.

I’ve read the Hansard record of that debate.

I was asking about the statement made earlier in the thread that the MPs for Bedford and Cambridge oppose the selected route alignment between Bedford and Cambridge, but no one has provided any evidence to support that.

On the contrary, the Hansard comments indicate that neither of them opposes the alignment. To the extent that the Bedford MP has objections these relate to the proposed extra tracks on the Midland Mainline (with associated residential demolition), but not the selected alignment along that route.

 

[zwk500]

I’ve read the Hansard record of that debate.

I was asking about the statement made earlier in the thread that the MPs for Bedford and Cambridge oppose the selected route alignment between Bedford and Cambridge, but no one has provided any evidence to support that.

On the contrary, the Hansard comments indicate that neither of them opposes the alignment. To the extent that the Bedford MP has objections these relate to the proposed extra tracks on the Midland Mainline (with associated residential demolition), but not the selected alignment along that route.

It's not an unreasonable inference from Fuller's comments that at least one Bedford MP opposes the alignment between Bedford and Cambridge, with his criticism that it's too twisty and hilly and should be straighter. Although I agree that his primary concern is (understandably) Bedford itself.

 

[Edvid]

Just to reiterate, Fuller's constituency is North East Bedfordshire (which includes smaller settlements in the borough of Bedford - Clapham, for instance - but not Bedford town itself).

With regard to Bedford (town/constituency) specifically I presume tspaul26 means Mohammad Yasin.

 

[tspaul26]

Just to reiterate, Fuller's constituency is North East Bedfordshire (which includes smaller settlements in the borough of Bedford - Clapham, for instance - but not Bedford town itself).

With regard to Bedford (town/constituency) specifically I presume tspaul26 means Mohammad Yasin.

Exactly. I am not aware that Yasin (the MP for Bedford) has ever expressed any opposition to the route alignment between Bedford and Cambridge - only specific infrastructure interventions along the Midland Mainline.

The same goes for the Cambridge MP, Zeichner.

 

[CdBrux]

Exactly. I am not aware that Yasin (the MP for Bedford) has ever expressed any opposition to the route alignment between Bedford and Cambridge - only specific infrastructure interventions along the Midland Mainline.

The same goes for the Cambridge MP, Zeichner.

considering the route between the towns doesn't affect their constituencies is maybe less surprising they wouldn't comment on it

 

[Class 170101]

I guess no consideration to building a low level station underneath the existing station at Bedford (Midland)?

 

[zwk500]

I guess no consideration to building a low level station underneath the existing station at Bedford (Midland)?

There's no way you'd get EWR into low-level platforms because of the gradients, river and sidings.

 

[Redbus74]

Who said what?

Just listened back to it,
It was on BBC three countries radio JVS show 1pm news if you want yo listen can get it on BBC sounds.

Says the Beds NE MP, Bedford MP and I think it said Cambridge MP are all now strongly against it. There words.

 

[tspaul26]

Says the Beds NE MP, Bedford MP and I think it said Cambridge MP are all now strongly against it.

There is still nothing to corroborate the claim that these two MPs oppose the route alignment between Bedford and Cambridge, then.

 

[Redbus74]

There is still nothing to corroborate the claim that these two MPs oppose the route alignment between Bedford and Cambridge, then.

Omg
I'm just repeating what was said on the news !

 

[Magdalia]

I wanted to wait until I had got time to read the Westminster Hall debate before commenting.

The prime purpose of such debates is to give MPs with a constituency interest the opportunity to set out their positions on the issue for debate, so that they can then be reported in the media. Here are some quotes from the debate, the bold is mine.

Let's start with the contribution of Daniel Zeichner MP from Cambridge, who said:

That brings me to my main point. As I have said, I understand the concerns about the route. First, I am glad that the southern route has been settled on near Cambridge, because overall that seems to be the most sensible. However, the reason for my unswerving support for the project is that I believe that the environmental and economic benefits will be significant. Environmentally, we know that we have to move people off roads. It may be that the world is changing, but I think—and the evidence is rising on this—that people will want to get back to face-to-face contact.

and

I believe that East West Rail can help to unlock the physical constraints that are currently a real challenge, and help us to get the people we need to remain in our world leadership position. There is strong support for the line from the local authorities and the business community; indeed, I was struck by a recent briefing from the business-led organisation Cambridge Ahead, because this was one of its top priorities. I know that when Government support seemed to be wobbling a while ago—I think we heard a characterisation of that earlier—the University of Cambridge was among the organisations that were particularly concerned about the prospect of the line not going ahead. I am glad that the wobbling seems to have settled, that we have a Minister who is firm in his intentions, and that the current version of this Government seem to understand the significance of the project.

I end where I began: there will always be arguments over routes and local impact, but I urge people to step back, look at the bigger picture and get this electrified railway in place.

I think it is hard to interpret any of that as opposition to EWR in principle, or to the route alignment.

Now let's look at the contribution of Mohammad Yasin, MP for Bedford. What he says is:

I do not believe that any people along the proposed East West Rail route are impacted as negatively as my constituents. It is for them that I stand in opposition to the route alignment that was confirmed at the end of May. The proposed six-track route will impact at least 66 properties in Bedford, including the demolition of 37 residential properties based on reasonable worst-case railway corridor width and potentially more demolitions as part of the station redevelopment. I am a big supporter of green public transport, so I supported the East West Rail route in principle to bring much needed connectivity and growth opportunities to Bedford, but I have always opposed a route that requires the demolition of homes.

and

I have always maintained that East West Rail should be electrified or carbon free from day one, and I am disappointed that the Government have not committed to low or zero-emissions rail. It is outrageous that they are even thinking about a new rail project that is not powered by green technology. I hope the Minister will commit today to a green East West Rail, which will be vital if the Government have any chance of meeting their net zero targets.

I read that as support for East West Rail, but opposition to 6 tracks north of Bedford, and the demolition of homes.

 

[richieb1971]

I read that as support for East West Rail, but opposition to 6 tracks north of Bedford, and the demolition of homes.

Yes, because although the bigger picture is that we get EWR in place, there is not a good reason to knock down 3 bridges, redevelop a whole station and build 6 tracks north of Bedford to create footfall in Bedford Town centre. Which is currently a ghost town of bookies, 1 or 2 pubs, Specsavers and a CEX. There just isn't anything exclusive to Bedford that stands out. Not to mention Bedfordians with cars are not that keen to go into the town centre. My friend used to run the oldest shop in town and he closed it because there just wasn't the footfall. On EWR you have Oxford (I went there a few weeks ago for the first time, very nice), Cambridge (very nice), Milton Keynes (very nice), Bicester Village (Very nice)... Bedford (not so nice). The majority of Bedfordians aren't even in the loop because they have zero interest in railways. When the works begin that will wake them up. What most Bedfordians want is a road system that flows which it doesn't very well. We don't have a ring road and the bridges that cross the railway are trunk routes that everyone uses regularly.

 

[Magdalia]

create footfall in Bedford Town centre. Which is currently a ghost town of bookies, 1 or 2 pubs, Specsavers and a CEX. There just isn't anything exclusive to Bedford that stands out. Not to mention Bedfordians with cars are not that keen to go into the town centre. My friend used to run the oldest shop in town and he closed it because there just wasn't the footfall.

Most of my experience of Bedford town centre is from a long time ago. I have done the walk between the bus station and Midland railway station many times. My recollection is that it relied heavily on Debenhams and BHS as "anchor tenants", so I'm not surprised by what you say about its current retail offer. But with a rising population it really should be doing better. Bedford needs to see EWR as an opportunity for regeneration, not as a threat. Bedford's proximity to Cambridge, once EWR is running, will be a huge advantage that it needs to make the most of. There will be businesses, wanting to be close to Cambridge and Oxford, but not wanting to pay Cambridge and Oxford costs, where Bedford is going to be an ideal location.

a product nobody wants except the government and EWR.

This is not correct. Cambridge wants EWR. Big businesses in Cambridge, who pay lots of taxes, want EWR. And Cambridge University wants EWR. Hundreds of years of experience are that what Cambridge University wants Cambridge University gets. The same probably applies in Oxford.

Not a twisting, turning, minimum benefit railway.

The twisting and turning maximise the benefits. It isn't possible to come through the Biomedical Campus, Cambourne and Bedford in anything near to a straight line, and all of those are needed to maximise the benefits.

 

[tspaul26]

Yes, because although the bigger picture is that we get EWR in place, there is not a good reason to knock down 3 bridges, redevelop a whole station and build 6 tracks north of Bedford to create footfall in Bedford Town centre.

Fine, we’ll do all that in order to secure the other benefits for other places and hang Bedford town centre. Bedfordians will just have to make the best of it.

Unless you can come up with a better solution, although I recall that you didn’t really succeed in that endeavour a few months ago.

 

[zwk500]

Most of my experience of Bedford town centre is from a long time ago. I have done the walk between the bus station and Midland railway station many times. My recollection is that it relied heavily on Debenhams and BHS as "anchor tenants", so I'm not surprised by what you say about its current retail offer. But with a rising population it really should be doing better. Bedford needs to see EWR as an opportunity for regeneration, not as a threat. Bedford's proximity to Cambridge, once EWR is running, will be a huge advantage that it needs to make the most of. There will be businesses, wanting to be close to Cambridge and Oxford, but not wanting to pay Cambridge and Oxford costs, where Bedford is going to be an ideal location.

I haven't been to Bedford for a while but there are pockets of nice places alongside the shabbier ends. EWR potentially brings many more customers to live in Bedford, which will be good for shops and restaurants.

This is not correct. Cambridge wants EWR. Big businesses in Cambridge, who pay lots of taxes, want EWR. And Cambridge University wants EWR. Hundreds of years of experience are that what Cambridge University wants Cambridge University gets. The same probably applies in Oxford.

MK definitely wants EWR as well.

The twisting and turning maximise the benefits.

It's also much straighter than most comparable railways, especially those on the continent.

 

[richieb1971]

According to politicians Bedford is crippled by house building already. With Richard Fuller quoting we have 4x the national average of house building with over bloated schools and a hospital which has too big of a capture area now.

Besides, my argument was for a route to the south of Bedford which would please the mercy calls of people in Bedford that don't want the disruption the chosen route and works will cause. If EWR is about housing, there is no room between midland Road and the high street to build any housing there. Wixams on the other hand wants a station, has house building and it's in a growing area similar to places like Tempsford. Somebody up top might want the railway to go through Bedford Station but the majority of people who live in Bedford want the project to be built as passively as possible. I could not imagine this route would be chosen. If you go to the beginning of this thread you might even see people laughing off less disruption than the planned consultation suggests.

If Bedford is some sort of epicenter of business, commerce and looks like Disney land in 20 years time I'll take EWR through my street. Bedfordians want the benefits without the disruption. A few will be heavily targeted by the route but the masses would prefer the railway a bit further from the high street which has more lights than people on most evenings.

 

[Magdalia]

It's also much straighter than most comparable railways, especially those on the continent.

And not significantly less straight then any other rail route to/from Cambridge, apart from Ely/Kings Lynn. Neither of the routes to London, or any of the routes to Peterborough, Norwich or Ipswich are direct.

a hospital which has too big of a capture area now

Which is why it is a good idea for Bedford to have good access to regional specialist hospitals, which are, er, located on the Cambridge Biomedical Campus.

 

[zwk500]

According to politicians Bedford is crippled by house building already. With Richard Fuller quoting we have 4x the national average of house building with over bloated schools and a hospital which has too big of a capture area now.

Arguing that we shouldn't invest in infrastructure now because we failed to invest in infrastructure before is a bad argument to a terrible socio economic situation.

 

[Redbus74]

Yes, because although the bigger picture is that we get EWR in place, there is not a good reason to knock down 3 bridges, redevelop a whole station and build 6 tracks north of Bedford to create footfall in Bedford Town centre. Which is currently a ghost town of bookies, 1 or 2 pubs, Specsavers and a CEX. There just isn't anything exclusive to Bedford that stands out. Not to mention Bedfordians with cars are not that keen to go into the town centre. My friend used to run the oldest shop in town and he closed it because there just wasn't the footfall. On EWR you have Oxford (I went there a few weeks ago for the first time, very nice), Cambridge (very nice), Milton Keynes (very nice), Bicester Village (Very nice)... Bedford (not so nice). The majority of Bedfordians aren't even in the loop because they have zero interest in railways. When the works begin that will wake them up. What most Bedfordians want is a road system that flows which it doesn't very well. We don't have a ring road and the bridges that cross the railway are trunk routes that everyone uses regularly.

Yes obviously no reason for anyone outside of bedford to go to the town centre, but as you said (and i did visit bedford for the first time in a while recently and) it has gone downhill rapidly.

People of Bedford im sure would be very happy to be able to get a train direct to places like Oxford and Cambridge, especially not being the best places to drive to or park either.

 

[12LDA28C]

Bedfordians want the benefits without the disruption.

Of course they do. Wouldn't anyone? Unfortunately things don't work like that. Omelettes and eggs spring to mind.

 

[zwk500]

Of course they do. Wouldn't anyone? Unfortunately things don't work like that. Omelettes and eggs spring to mind.

Oh for a like button!

 

[richieb1971]

Of course they do. Wouldn't anyone? Unfortunately things don't work like that. Omelettes and eggs spring to mind.

Oh for a like button!

Hmm, sometimes I think some people have deflector shields against common sense. Most people in Bedford won't use the railway unless it was free. For those that do, they can get almost all the benefits from a parkway station near Wixams. On the other end of the scale you have 95% of the Bedfordian population using roads that bridge the railway every day. Those bridges will be taken out at some point and reengineered. If you take just one bridge out, the traffic has to use the other 2 bridges to head east or west. Considering the 3 bridges are bottlenecks and all have extreme high usage it seems to me that there will be a lot of congestion. Whilst this is happening it will deter even more people to come into Bedford town center because it will take longer to get there and exit via car/bus etc.

The benefit of these 3 bridges being knocked down is that Bedford (formerly Midland station) has access to the wonderful shops and business parks in Bedford, of which there are currently very few and certainly not worth travelling anywhere for. You can get better anywhere on the line. The average salary in Bedford is around £25k or thereabouts. I just don't understand why Bedford needs all this re engineering when there is nothing here in Bedford to attact to anyone.

A station built at Wixams that caters for EWR would take traffic out of Bedford and make it easier for those that do go there. Maybe if Bedford had a ring road (it doesn't) the 3 bridges wouldn't be an issue, but it is what it is. In my opinion you should do damage control BEFOREHAND, not forcibly run with something and let the consequences happen.

The Mayor Dave Hodgson has been ousted from his seat. Politically speaking any politician saying we need to take the bad tasting medicine to remedy a problem first needs to tell us what the problem is and how much gold is at the end of the rainbow. Because the current buzzwords aren't hitting home yet.

On a side note, the political forcing of our high street being one way, with widen footpaths has done nothing for Bedford. Most of the pubs and shops have closed now since that happened. The bypass that was promised ended up being a housing estate with a road running through it, its not even dual carriageway. The Riverside north shopping precinct is a shadow of what it was when opened and the promised bridge in that area didn't look anything like it was supposed to cut costs. Not everything that is promised comes true.

 

[Trainbike46]

Hmm, sometimes I think some people have deflector shields against common sense. Most people in Bedford won't use the railway unless it was free. For those that do, they can get almost all the benefits from a parkway station near Wixams. On the other end of the scale you have 95% of the Bedfordian population using roads that bridge the railway every day. Those bridges will be taken out at some point and reengineered. If you take just one bridge out, the traffic has to use the other 2 bridges to head east or west. Considering the 3 bridges are bottlenecks and all have extreme high usage it seems to me that there will be a lot of congestion. Whilst this is happening it will deter even more people to come into Bedford town center because it will take longer to get there and exit via car/bus etc.

The benefit of these 3 bridges being knocked down is that Bedford (formerly Midland station) has access to the wonderful shops and business parks in Bedford, of which there are currently very few and certainly not worth travelling anywhere for. You can get better anywhere on the line. The average salary in Bedford is around £25k or thereabouts. I just don't understand why Bedford needs all this re engineering when there is nothing here in Bedford to attact to anyone.

A station built at Wixams that caters for EWR would take traffic out of Bedford and make it easier for those that do go there. Maybe if Bedford had a ring road (it doesn't) the 3 bridges wouldn't be an issue, but it is what it is. In my opinion you should do damage control BEFOREHAND, not forcibly run with something and let the consequences happen.

The Mayor Dave Hodgson has been ousted from his seat. Politically speaking any politician saying we need to take the bad tasting medicine to remedy a problem first needs to tell us what the problem is and how much gold is at the end of the rainbow. Because the current buzzwords aren't hitting home yet.

On a side note, the political forcing of our high street being one way, with widen footpaths has done nothing for Bedford. Most of the pubs and shops have closed now since that happened. The bypass that was promised ended up being a housing estate with a road running through it, its not even dual carriageway. The Riverside north shopping precinct is a shadow of what it was when opened and the promised bridge in that area didn't look anything like it was supposed to cut costs. Not everything that is promised comes true.

Bedford had passenger number of 2.3 million entries/exits april 2021-march 2022, so I think you might be underestimating the number of people from Bedford who use the railway.

 

[12LDA28C]

Hmm, sometimes I think some people have deflector shields against common sense. Most people in Bedford won't use the railway unless it was free. For those that do, they can get almost all the benefits from a parkway station near Wixams. On the other end of the scale you have 95% of the Bedfordian population using roads that bridge the railway every day. Those bridges will be taken out at some point and reengineered. If you take just one bridge out, the traffic has to use the other 2 bridges to head east or west. Considering the 3 bridges are bottlenecks and all have extreme high usage it seems to me that there will be a lot of congestion. Whilst this is happening it will deter even more people to come into Bedford town center because it will take longer to get there and exit via car/bus etc.

The benefit of these 3 bridges being knocked down is that Bedford (formerly Midland station) has access to the wonderful shops and business parks in Bedford, of which there are currently very few and certainly not worth travelling anywhere for. You can get better anywhere on the line. The average salary in Bedford is around £25k or thereabouts. I just don't understand why Bedford needs all this re engineering when there is nothing here in Bedford to attact to anyone.

Here's a thought, not directly aimed at you but possibly the good people of Bedford:

Accept that infrastructure projects will happen that might not directly positively impact you or enhance your life in any way, but are being put in place to benefit others. Not everything exists purely to make your life better.

Where I live there is huge disruption to the local area being caused by the construction of HS2. It's unlikely I'll use HS2 myself and I am being negatively impacted by the roadworks, road closures and so on related to the work being carried out. However I am in favour of HS2 as I can see the wider benefits to be gained once the line is complete (if it ever gets finished).

The point is that people should stop with the NIMBYism and selfishness and see the bigger picture.

 

[Last Hurrah]

Here, Here . .

 

[Magdalia]

Of course they do. Wouldn't anyone? Unfortunately things don't work like that. Omelettes and eggs spring to mind.

I have spent the last three weeks resisting the temptation to say that!

On the other end of the scale you have 95% of the Bedfordian population using roads that bridge the railway every day.

I doubt that 95%.

And apart from Bromham Road, which bridges are going to need to be taken out?

Maybe if Bedford had a ring road (it doesn't)

But it does have the A421 bypass and the A428 bridge near Bedford Heights/Manton Lane.

The average salary in Bedford is around £25k or thereabouts.

East West Rail is Bedford's best chance of doing something about that.

I just don't understand why Bedford needs all this re engineering when there is nothing here in Bedford to attact to anyone.

East West Rail is about the future, not the present or the past. What's attractive in Bedford is a workforce that deserves better, and can get better jobs paying more money with East West Rail.

In my opinion you should do damage control BEFOREHAND, not forcibly run with something and let the consequences happen.

There is a long way to go yet, and those mitigations will be put in place. I know that Cambridge South is a much smaller scale project, and that the process will be different for East West Rail, but I recommend that you look at how Cambridge South evolved from first concept to what is actually being built, in particular the Transport and Works Act Order documentation.

first needs to tell us what the problem is and how much gold is at the end of the rainbow

The problem is lack of growth in the UK economy. The gold at the end of the rainbow is the taxes paid by successful businesses on the Cambridge Biomedical Campus, taxes paid by businesses in places with good communication with it, and taxes paid by their employees. That funds public expenditure and/or tax cuts which benefit everyone.

 

[Trainbike46]

The problem is lack of growth in the UK economy. The gold at the end of the rainbow is the taxes paid by successful businesses on the Cambridge Biomedical Campus, taxes paid by businesses in places with good communication with it, and taxes paid by their employees. That funds public expenditure and/or tax cuts which benefit everyone.

I think you're underplaying the benefits of east-west rail here, which also include: easier access to important regional hospitals in Cambridge, for staff, patients and visitors; easier access to housing for the employment hubs along the line, and easier access to many employment opportunities for the many current and future people along the line; Easier ways of visiting family and friends in different parts of the country.

Particular the hospital access is really important, and not quite captured in the (important) financial case for the project

 

[Doctor Fegg]

On a side note, the political forcing of our high street being one way, with widen footpaths has done nothing for Bedford. Most of the pubs and shops have closed now since that happened.

Correlation is not causation.

The Great British high street has been dying on its arris for years, yet it’s amazing how any improvements to reduce the dominance of the motor car are always seized upon as “this is why our shops are closing”. I suspect Mr Bezos’ big shed on the outskirts of Bedford is a more relevant factor.