East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Kingham West]

Presumably waiting for publication of T and W Order, later this month, little to say till this point .

 

[richieb1971]

It's been a few months since anyone updated this. Seems a long time considering it's a massive project. I want to actually ride this ox cam service in my life time. What is t and w?

 

[BluePenguin]

Yes the thread has been extremely quiet. There is nothing really to say at the moment is there? Until trains start to run through the tunnels there won't be any/much progress to report on and discuss.

As it stands Heathrow - Paddington has now been re-branded as TFL Rail but still using the same Heathrow Connect trains. Nothing is running to Reading yet although it could and should be by now seeing as the infrastructure already exists.

Shenfield - Liverpool Street has also been re-branded as TFL Rail but is now using the new trains.

Both of these routes are still running on the conventional lines as you can tell. So basically not a lot has changed and will not change until the tunnels open for service.

I am very excited about Crossrail too. Particularly the seemlees connections to Thameslink. No more using the Central line either

 

[jimm]

Wrong thread - richieb is excited about the prospect of riding on a train from Oxford to Cambridge via Milton Keynes and Bedford, which is what the East West Rail Link project is.

 

[The Planner]

It's been a few months since anyone updated this. Seems a long time considering it's a massive project. I want to actually ride this ox cam service in my life time. What is t and w?

Transport and Works Act Order. The plan is still Dec 2021 for Oxford to Bletchley, providing Bletchley flyover isn't in a bad state as hoped.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

T & W is the Transport and Works parliamentary process that gives major projects like East-West Rail planning approval to proceed.
It takes a long time to conduct the formal consultation and produce recommendations for the Sec of State to approve (or not).
It's also where the objectors make their last ditch objections known, with Network Rail producing hopefully acceptable solutions.
We await the T&W report on the Bicester-Bletchley construction phase, and how any work will be funded.
Also complicated by HS2 construction in the area (already approved by its own Act of Parliament).

 

[snowball]

T & W is the Transport and Works parliamentary process that gives major projects like East-West Rail planning approval to proceed.

Parliament is (usually?) not involved.

 

[Dunnyrail]

The combined Mayor for Peterborough and Cambs has been agitating about moving this line forwards for a while now in the local Chip Wrappers, but nothing is in my view likely till probably 2030 if at all.

Judging by some if the recent touted nonsence by some high up moron about building new track where satisfactory exists and still runs (Bletchley - Bedford) typical provarication of project manouver prompted by DoR in my view.

Oh yes though the expressway road will be built probably by 2023 or earlier! Everyone is salviating about this new road and it will probably at a stroke when built in their eyes negate the need for East West to be completed other than that already under way Aylesbury - Bletchley.

 

[jimm]

"Satisfactory" track?

Bletchley-Bedford isn't remotely fit be used as a 100mph main line railway. Nor is it a case between Bicester and Bletchley of simply laying new track on the existing formation, which some people seem to think. Some embankments and cutting sides are likely to need a fair degree of expensive strengthening to make them fit for use again.

If you are are in any doubt about the scale of what might be needed, I suggest you look out some before and after pictures of the Oxford-Bicester line, which looks like a brand new railway as a result of all the work that was needed to make it fit for the services using it now, as opposed to the Oxford-Bicester dmu shuttle and the the odd freight train that used to run there. The top speed permitted was 40 or 45mph.

The embankments on the Chiltern main line needed lots of work to enable them first to take double track again, then to allow trains to run at 100mph over them. Several locations on the Cotswold Line needed similar work in 2009-11 when redoubling took place there.

 

[snowball]

Oh yes though the expressway road will be built probably by 2023 or earlier!

Not a chance. There is no route yet. There is not even a decision on what corridor the route will be in.

 

[Non Multi]

The equivalent thread on rmweb has plenty of pictures of the truly appalling condition of the 'mothballed' railway alignment during last winter, it was flooded in places. A ground survey road railer truck was pictured moving along the freight line at Quainton Road last May.

 

[D1009]

Is this thread dead? Nobody talking anymore?

Probably not much to say about it at the moment because the railway industry has already held up the white flag regarding delivery of projects far more advanced.

 

[Dunnyrail]

"Satisfactory" track?

Bletchley-Bedford isn't remotely fit be used as a 100mph main line railway. Nor is it a case between Bicester and Bletchley of simply laying new track on the existing formation, which some people seem to think. Some embankments and cutting sides are likely to need a fair degree of expensive strengthening to make them fit for use again.

If you are are in any doubt about the scale of what might be needed, I suggest you look out some before and after pictures of the Oxford-Bicester line, which looks like a brand new railway as a result of all the work that was needed to make it fit for the services using it now, as opposed to the Oxford-Bicester dmu shuttle and the the odd freight train that used to run there. The top speed permitted was 40 or 45mph.

The embankments on the Chiltern main line needed lots of work to enable them first to take double track again, then to allow trains to run at 100mph over them. Several locations on the Cotswold Line needed similar work in 2009-11 when redoubling took place there.

I quite accept that and the work on the route from Bicester to Oxford does indeed show that it can be done with the 'Chiltern Railways' attitude mode on. I was meaning that there is already a Railway in place and that in tems of Trackbed is perfectly adequate and upgradeable with Chiltern Style upgrades. Ok? So I feel the need to build a new Alignment between Bletchley/MK to Bedford is irrelevant and time wasting tacktics. If indeed as Politicians keep saying that we need growth and better communications for work access the start on the East West needs to get miving now not prevarication. Just Look how quickly the early Railway Pioneers built some large projects, in less time than it takes these days to Consult never mind even getting tithe stage of consulting!

Not a chance. There is no route yet. There is not even a decision on what corridor the route will be in.

Well at least some good news in one front!

 

[DarloRich]

Just Look how quickly the early Railway Pioneers built some large projects

That was in the 1840's. We live in a different world now.

I was meaning that there is already a Railway in place and that in tems of Trackbed is perfectly adequate and upgradeable with Chiltern Style upgrades.

Correct. There is a railway in place between Bletchley and Bedford. It is a 60 mph maximum railway. it is a railway line bisected every 2 inches by level crossings. What it isnt is a 100mph railway. It needs rebuilding to a suitable standard. It needs numerous crossings closed and roads redirected. I suspect it will need a complete resignalling. it needs electrifying.

There most certainly is NOT a suitable trackbed & track between Swanbourne and Bicester.

So I feel the need to build a new Alignment between Bletchley/MK to Bedford is irrelevant and time wasting tacktics

No one is talking, seriously, about this at all.

Probably not much to say about it at the moment because the railway industry has already held up the white flag regarding delivery of projects far more advanced.

No idea what is involved in delivering a railway project in the 21st century fragmented railway world. None at all.

 

[Rob F]

No idea what is involved in delivering a railway project in the 21st century fragmented railway world. None at all.

Sadly, a lot of the time it seems that neither do the people who are actually trying to do it.

 

[snowball]

No one is talking, seriously, about this at all.

Rob Brighouse, chairman of East-West Rail, has been reported as suggesting it, as discussed upthread.

 

[DarloRich]

Rob Brighouse, chairman of East-West Rail, has been reported as suggesting it, as discussed upthread.

The important word is seriously. This idea simply isnt realistic imo and I suspect it is being looked at to discount it and keep an important & vocal stakeholder happy. Doing that simply adds to the timeline.

 

[jyte]

People often don't realise how often obviously ridiculous options are pursued to make the chosen option look more desirable...

 

[D1009]

I'm trying to make head or tail out of all this ranting. Are we arguing that the all the options are too expensive and should not be proceeded with, whatever happens?

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Well at least some good news in one front!

How is that good news please?

 

[richieb1971]

I am not sure that 100mph running speeds takes priority over connectivity. There seems to be this unwritten rule that if the railway doesn't facilitate a 100mph potential running speed that its not worth doing at all.

I'm all for the current plans to go ahead and a 70mph running speed through the 18 miles of Marston Vale is maintained. That equates to 20+ minutes of lower speed and only creates a subtle bottleneck compared to the rest of the line.

The mothballed bit of track between Bicester and Bletchley has the benefit of being mostly straight so i'm sure with the right infrastructure in place a 100mph running speed can be made possible.

 

[Tobbes]

I'm all for the current plans to go ahead and a 70mph running speed through the 18 miles of Marston Vale is maintained. That equates to 20+ minutes of lower speed and only creates a subtle bottleneck compared to the rest of the line.

If my maths is right, that's a difference of 4m 37s for through trains on the Marston Vale section at 70 vs 100. Politically, it seems that the key metric will be the headline Oxford-Cambs timings - under 90 mins express (Cambridge, Bedford, Bletchley, Oxford) @ 1 tph plus 1 tph (stopping all stations) would be ideal - an hour quicker than the train via London, and half an hour quicker than driving. It will need to stay time competitiive with the new motorway, too. Ideally, therefore, I'd like it all to be 100 mph (and to understand why this isn't possible/is madly expensive if not) and obviously electrified asap.

 

[richieb1971]

Only parts of the Marston Vale are 70mph possible. The bits at each end are plagued with sharp turns. The eventual run into the new bit of track heading east of Bedford might alleviate some of that if the spur coming off the vale line is pretty straight. If the priority is running times between Oxford and Cambridge, Bedford will take a much lower priority in the proceedings unless they build a flyover over the whole town.

If this railway existed today, I bet quite a few Thameslink customers would be re-routing to other railways via the east-west link.

 

[Tobbes]

Interesting, thanks Richie - would tilt make a significant difference on the Marston Vale?

I've always preferred serving Bedford from a Parkway station where the Marston Vale is crossed by the MML, with a recast MML timetable having fast trains serving this station and skipping Beford Midland Road and having to reverse. In this scenario, EWR would swing either up through the original site of Bedford St Johns and recreate the original alignment as closely as possible to Sandy (though this means bridges up and over the country park and the A421, or a bored tunnel from St Johns (original) to the other side of the A421 (c. 2km)), or, more radically in a bored tunnel for 3km on a much straighter alignment from the MML/Marston Vale interchange to surface east of the A421.

The benefit of the first would be that it would make for a simple triangular connection to Midland Road from the East, whereas the long tunnel would make that much more expensive. I guess it depends on what your priorities are, and how important Bedford Midland - Sandy - Cambs flows are expected to be - I'm assuming that they'ii be increasingly important.

 

[richieb1971]

The restriction on the vale line appears to be because of the level crossings. So tilting trains and making them go even faster would only make the railway more of a health and safety hazard.

NR want to replace all level crossings with road bridges going over the railway but this is cost prohibitive. There were murmurings of considering a new passage via MKC to Bedford and only using a partial of the vale line as this would be cheaper, but I think its still cost prohibitive.

 

[Tobbes]

Ah, thanks very much, Richie - makes sense.

 

[richieb1971]

I think the main hurdles are -

Maintaining 100mph across the whole route
Making Bedford Midland a viable station to support EMT, THL and EWR trains for the 10+ years until a parkway station is built going East.
Finding the most cost effective route going east of Bedford (I think going to Hitchin is better than Sandy since cost might stop this. Getting a route to Hitchin off the ground is better than not getting anything off the ground).

 

[jyte]

The restriction on the vale line appears to be because of the level crossings. So tilting trains and making them go even faster would only make the railway more of a health and safety hazard.

NR want to replace all level crossings with road bridges going over the railway but this is cost prohibitive. There were murmurings of considering a new passage via MKC to Bedford and only using a partial of the vale line as this would be cheaper, but I think its still cost prohibitive.

I seriously doubt that we'll have more tilting trains. I would be surprised if the replacements for the 390s can tilt, considering HS2.

 

[Tobbes]

390s will be 30 years old in the early 2030s, so it isn't beyond possibility that they could be cascaded to something like EWR (which i expect to be electrified in CP7 in time to open the whole thing as an electric railway). But the broader point is well taken.

 

[jyte]

390s will be 30 years old in the early 2030s, so it isn't beyond possibility that they could be cascaded to something like EWR (which i expect to be electrified in CP7 in time to open the whole thing as an electric railway). But the broader point is well taken.

I swear, even though I now can't find a source for it, that the 390s were only intended to run for 27 years. Of course, the 4 newer 2012 units are still young things (even if now based on a 20+ year old design) and might be sticking around a bit longer.

Who knows - tilting requires so much gauge clearance work that NR's current preferred method seems to be re-alignment, such as what's currently occurring at Market Harborough. Of course, only a decade ago NR was very anti electrification (ha!) so tilt might come back into favour.