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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

route:oxford

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You wouldn't have to change if the idea that is still kicking about to add a XC type train along E-W that uses the WCML to Manchester comes off.

This is true.

I wonder if the fares will be realigned as we approach opening. £166.20 "Anytime" return from Oxford to Manchester versus £215.00 "Anytime" MK to Manchester.

Or perhaps there will be any permitted and route:banbury
 
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70014IronDuke

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I suspect the opposite - I think there will be a fairly considerable flow of passengers embracing the route to the WCML.

For example, for individuals travelling to Manchester from Oxford. They will have the choice of the direct train which currently takes around 2h56m. Alternatively, they will be able to take the train to MK and pick up a service which takes 1h40m. As long as the service from Oxford to Milton Keynes takes less than 1h15m (I'm sure it'll be closer to 30 minutes) and is a good connection - then it'll also be the route promoted on the on-line planners.
....

Fair points. I hadn't realised XC was so (relatively) slow. It will be interesting how this pans out in 10 years time and more.
 

richieb1971

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Going back to Bedford.

If the Oxford Bedford service is a huge success then any plans to divert from Bedford Midland will probably be re-evaluated at that time.

The two viable options obviously don't have BDM in the picture at the moment.

I am not even sure if BDM can handle a 4 car unit in the bay platform so that leaves P1 and P2. Although there is a siding north of the station which could be utilized if necessary.

There was some talk a few years ago of remodelling BDM but it never happened. I've even heard of a new platform going through the ticket office.
 

mr_jrt

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I was under the impression it was getting a new platform, presumably to either keep EWR segregated from Thameslink or to handle Thameslink terminators when the slow lines are (re)extended to Corby...
 

richieb1971

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I was under the impression it was getting a new platform, presumably to either keep EWR segregated from Thameslink or to handle Thameslink terminators when the slow lines are (re)extended to Corby...

Well the bay platform was supposed to be extended into the ticket office and probably attached to the north end siding. There really isn't anywhere else to put a platform.

And yes, its much better to segregate the services from Thameslink.
 

HowardGWR

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yes, I had not thought that if you want to change in the Bletchley area, you have to do it from MK, because that's where the fasts stop. I was never advocating that the Aylesburys should not go to MK.

What's the time penalty, do we reckon, of EW trains going to and reversing at MK?

If this is the idea, what's the point of the high level platforms at Bletchley?
 

mr_jrt

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Well the bay platform was supposed to be extended into the ticket office and probably attached to the north end siding. There really isn't anywhere else to put a platform.

And yes, its much better to segregate the services from Thameslink.

I don't know the station well, so forgive me, but when I was musing on this a while back I couldn't help but notice the large amount of space behind the fast northbound platform, and as you know, the southbound fast doesn't have a platform, so southbound fast services have to either skip the station, or transfer onto the slows north of Bedford.

With that in mind, would it be possible to realign the fast lines around the current fast platform to create an island? I appreciate that there's little need now, but if EWR services prove popular it would improve the usefulness of the interchange. If all of the Bedford terminating services are projected to Corby (removing the need for terminal platforms) then you could give EWR platforms 1&2 on the eastern island, Thameslink 3&4 on the central island, and the fasts 5&6 on a western island. Probably only useful if EWR routed around the north of Bedford though, (or took on Corby duties en route to Peterborough via that Manton chord option).
 

All Line Rover

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This is true.

I wonder if the fares will be realigned as we approach opening. £166.20 "Anytime" return from Oxford to Manchester versus £215.00 "Anytime" MK to Manchester.

Or perhaps there will be any permitted and route:banbury

Nobody - nobody - should be purchasing that £215 ticket. There are no evening peak restrictions in either direction, so the appropriate fare is a £107.50 Anytime Single combined with a £32.20 Off Peak Saver Half. Around £140 return.

With CrossCountry the same approach cannot be taken as the Anytime Single fares tend to be only slightly higher than the Off Peak Return fares (which are in turn only £1 higher than the Off Peak Single fares), but as travel on CrossCountry is essentially a series of local journeys (as reflected in the journey time and the on-board facilities), and tickets can be purchased as such, this is not a problem.
 

The Ham

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yes, I had not thought that if you want to change in the Bletchley area, you have to do it from MK, because that's where the fasts stop. I was never advocating that the Aylesburys should not go to MK.

What's the time penalty, do we reckon, of EW trains going to and reversing at MK?

If this is the idea, what's the point of the high level platforms at Bletchley?

E-W have talked about a XC type service, in which case we could see direct semi fast Oxford - MK services. If it reached the penultimate station shortly after one of the stoppers to Bedford and went somewhere useful after MK (Birmingham, Manchester or the like) then I would guess that people wouldn't mind changing off a stopping service.

That would then mean that with one change to get into the XC type service and possibly one other change to get to their final station that it would be quite an attractive service.
 

HowardGWR

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E-W have talked about a XC type service, in which case we could see direct semi fast Oxford - MK services. If it reached the penultimate station shortly after one of the stoppers to Bedford and went somewhere useful after MK (Birmingham, Manchester or the like) then I would guess that people wouldn't mind changing off a stopping service.

That would then mean that with one change to get into the XC type service and possibly one other change to get to their final station that it would be quite an attractive service.

I can't follow this, could you spell it out please? See my highlighted bits of your post? I don't understand the reference to XC in this context either. Sorry to be so dim.
 

The Ham

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I can't follow this, could you spell it out please? See my highlighted bits of your post? I don't understand the reference to XC in this context either. Sorry to be so dim.

XC type service is a service which runs a long distance with a semi fast stopping pattern and doesn't go to London. In the case of E-W it would likely call at Oxford, one other station and then Milton Keynes.

For argument's sake let's say it calls at Winslow, it would do so just after a stopper service (say 10 minutes after) so as to provide an interchange from the other stations between Oxford and Milton Keynes. The stopping service would then continue onto Bedford, clearing out of the way before the faster service heading towards Milton Keynes catches it up.

One possible option suggested by others was something like Bristol to Manchester, as although it would be slower for passengers from Bristol going to Manchester it would provide better interchanges to a lot of places than is currently the case. It could run Bristol, Swindon, Didcot, Oxford, Winslow, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stoke on Trent, Stockport, Manchester.
 

HowardGWR

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XC type service is a service which runs a long distance with a semi fast stopping pattern and doesn't go to London. In the case of E-W it would likely call at Oxford, one other station and then Milton Keynes.

For argument's sake let's say it calls at Winslow, it would do so just after a stopper service (say 10 minutes after) so as to provide an interchange from the other stations between Oxford and Milton Keynes. The stopping service would then continue onto Bedford, clearing out of the way before the faster service heading towards Milton Keynes catches it up.

One possible option suggested by others was something like Bristol to Manchester, as although it would be slower for passengers from Bristol going to Manchester it would provide better interchanges to a lot of places than is currently the case. It could run Bristol, Swindon, Didcot, Oxford, Winslow, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stoke on Trent, Stockport, Manchester.

Yes, thanks, now explained, it conforms exactly with how I see EW being of great benefit. I know many here like to see more 'through' services, but like happens in other EU countries, I believe a fast and frequent interlacing service of faster trains with stoppers, is a way forward for more grabbing of road to rail, certainly from buses such as X5, although it could have a good connection role with rail, if it calls at places in between the larger centres, where rail does not go. For this reason, I ponder on the future of Bletchley to Bedford stoppers, where it would appear that the bus could be a better feeder.

Incidentally, I am not hung up on 'XC' as a separate concept (thus not to London) of services. The Exeter to Waterloo trajectory would lend itself very well to this interlacing of fast and slow, where, after doubling, trains from Exeter to Salisbury, all stations, would feed into fast services at Yeovil or Salisbury.
 

swt_passenger

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yes, I had not thought that if you want to change in the Bletchley area, you have to do it from MK, because that's where the fasts stop. I was never advocating that the Aylesburys should not go to MK.

What's the time penalty, do we reckon, of EW trains going to and reversing at MK?

If this is the idea, what's the point of the high level platforms at Bletchley?
They are needed so that people on trains from EWR (or Oxford) to Milton Keynes or Bedford can get off at Bletchley surely? The route taken by the existing line sweeps round in a curve on a flyover that crosses the WCML just south of the existing platforms, and it then divides towards a pair of junctions, one with the WCML slows about a mile towards Milton Keynes, and another junction with the line towards Bedford, the latter being towards Fenny Stratford.

But as I noted earlier, there are no current published plans for through services Oxford > Bletchley > Milton Keynes > Bedford. But if there were you'd still want high level platforms at Bletchley to avoid a second reversal in the low level platforms to call there. Without them a train would perhaps have to run Oxford > Bletchley (non stopping) > Milton Keynes (reverse) > Bletchley LL (reverse) > Bedford.

That move from crossing the WCML to departing towards Bedford would take about 20 mins, consisting of 5 mins each up and back down the WCML slows, and two x 5 min changing ends for the driver.

As I see it, without the HL platforms there'd be no EWR calls at Bletchley at all.
 
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HowardGWR

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They are needed so that people on trains from EWR (or Oxford) to Milton Keynes or Bedford can get off at Bletchley surely? The route taken by the existing line sweeps round in a curve on a flyover that crosses the WCML just south of the existing platforms, and it then divides towards a pair of junctions, one with the WCML slows about a mile towards Milton Keynes, and another junction with the line towards Bedford, the latter being towards Fenny Stratford.

But as I noted earlier, there are no current published plans for through services Oxford > Bletchley > Milton Keynes > Bedford. But if there were you'd still want high level platforms at Bletchley to avoid a second reversal in the low level platforms to call there. Without them a train would perhaps have to run Oxford > Bletchley (non stopping) > Milton Keynes (reverse) > Bletchley LL (reverse) > Bedford.

That move from crossing the WCML to departing towards Bedford would take about 20 mins, consisting of 5 mins each up and back down the WCML slows, and two x 5 min changing ends for the driver.

As I see it, without the HL platforms there'd be no EWR calls at Bletchley at all.
My apologies, I had forgotten there was no low level link with the WCML into Bletchley low level. :oops:

There could be of course it appears (see waste ground where there was a southern facing link at one time).

I was diverted by the comments that E W trains should call at MK and reverse. Clearly, even if they all did, some would stop at Bletchley HL - but would they all need to?
 

70014IronDuke

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My apologies, I had forgotten there was no low level link with the WCML into Bletchley low level. :oops:

There could be of course it appears (see waste ground where there was a southern facing link at one time).

I was diverted by the comments that E W trains should call at MK and reverse. Clearly, even if they all did, some would stop at Bletchley HL - but would they all need to?

Yes, there was one. When the line was open, trains from Oxford (and Banbury/Buckingham) used to join the WCML just south of the flyover, IIRC.

They used to stop in bays on the west side of the station. What is today called "The Varsity Line" (it was never called that when open, IMX) was nothing of the sort, reallly. Most services were Oxford - Bletchley and Bletchley-Bedford or Bletchley- Cambridge and vv.

EDIT - on second thoughts, maybe it was only the Banbury/Buckingham trains which used the bays. I did go to Oxford a few times, and I think we left from the main line platforms. Long time ago though :)

The flyover was built for freight traffic, not passenger usage.

The connection to the WCML must have been removed c 1970.
 
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MikePJ

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But as I noted earlier, there are no current published plans for through services Oxford > Bletchley > Milton Keynes > Bedford.
EWR's site shows a Bedford-Oxford service (calling at Bletchley but not MK) at 1tph, taking 61 minutes.

It then shows a second MK-Oxford service, also 1tph, taking 41 minutes

Both of these services may end up continuing to Reading.
 

70014IronDuke

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E-W have talked about a XC type service, in which case we could see direct semi fast Oxford - MK services. If it reached the penultimate station shortly after one of the stoppers to Bedford and went somewhere useful after MK (Birmingham, Manchester or the like) then I would guess that people wouldn't mind changing off a stopping service.

That would then mean that with one change to get into the XC type service and possibly one other change to get to their final station that it would be quite an attractive service.

Whether an XC through service is introduced or not, the new link will be fantastic for helping out in emergencies. eg, if the WCML is blocked south of Bletchley, passengers can be diverted via into Marylebone or even Paddington if capacity is there.

Likewise, if Oxford-Banbury is blocked, most passengers could travel via MK. And, depending on the stock being used (Id' guess there would be capactiy problems, as now), if the MML is blocked south of Bedford, MML passengers, or at least some, could go via Bletchley.
 

aylesbury

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A basic service of semi fasts to Bedford with the interchange at Bletchley to LM services north to Birmingham and Liverpool.I f passengers require services to the far north MK is the place and also Crewe will offer N Wales services. The London MK via Aylesbury will cater for the needs of Bucks but a station at Quainton would have been a help at least Winslow is being revived. One worrying aspect of the new build is the motorist/conservation lobby that wants the line stopped regular comments are made locally but the line will happen but not soon enough.
 

jimm

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Whether an XC through service is introduced or not, the new link will be fantastic for helping out in emergencies. eg, if the WCML is blocked south of Bletchley, passengers can be diverted via into Marylebone or even Paddington if capacity is there.

Likewise, if Oxford-Banbury is blocked, most passengers could travel via MK. And, depending on the stock being used (Id' guess there would be capactiy problems, as now), if the MML is blocked south of Bedford, MML passengers, or at least some, could go via Bletchley.

West Coast passengers might be detrained at Bletchley to be put on East West services but there is pretty much zero chance of any trains being diverted to either Marylebone or Paddington, as there just won't be the paths/platform capacity. In order for GWR HSTs to use Marylebone after Christmas, Chiltern had to reduce its service south of Banbury.

While you might be able to route some services via East West if the Oxford-Banbury-Leamington-Birmingham corridor has issues, there are other things to bear in mind, like the speed limit on use of non-tilting stock on the WCML, the time penalty and the need to maintain some sort of service to places immediately north and south of the blockage - e.g. XC is the main operator between Oxford and Banbury, so you couldn't just divert all XC trains and expect people to rely on GWR's sketchy stopping service.
 

swt_passenger

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EWR's site shows a Bedford-Oxford service (calling at Bletchley but not MK) at 1tph, taking 61 minutes.

It then shows a second MK-Oxford service, also 1tph, taking 41 minutes

Both of these services may end up continuing to Reading.

Exactly as I pointed out yesterday in post #386 then, including the same link.

Remarkable how we keep going round in circles... :D
 

richieb1971

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If only the northampton line was put into serious consideration, MK wouldn't be a problem. I know I know.. dreaming.
 

MikePJ

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Exactly as I pointed out yesterday in post #386 then, including the same link.

Remarkable how we keep going round in circles... :D

Sorry - it was only after I posted that I realised I'd misread what you'd written. I'd thought you'd said there would be no direct Oxford-Bedford service at all, rather than no service via MK.
 

richieb1971

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If Bedford Midland cannot be included on the EWR then MKC certainly cannot.

As I see it MKC is a bit big to ignore but I don't consider part of the EWR at all. The ideal is to get from Oxford to Bedford direct as possible in the 1st instance. Then to Cambridge in the 2nd instance.

I keep on saying it, if MKC is so damn big it cannot be ignored, open the Northampton to Bedford line as well. It means slow trains can take the longer route including MKC and the fast ones can stop at Bletchley and then head for Fenny.
 

The Ham

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If Bedford Midland cannot be included on the EWR then MKC certainly cannot.

As I see it MKC is a bit big to ignore but I don't consider part of the EWR at all. The ideal is to get from Oxford to Bedford direct as possible in the 1st instance. Then to Cambridge in the 2nd instance.

I keep on saying it, if MKC is so damn big it cannot be ignored, open the Northampton to Bedford line as well. It means slow trains can take the longer route including MKC and the fast ones can stop at Bletchley and then head for Fenny.

Although MKC isn't going to be served by true east west services the provision of the line from Aylesbury to Winslow will mean that the Aylesbury services are due to be extended to MKC. In doing so there will be direct services from Winslow and Bletchley (high level) to MKC. Therefore although it wouldn't be a direct service passengers from west of Winslow should be able with a change be able to get there.

Also add pointed out before, there could be semi fast semi long distance services which provide a direct link between Oxford and MKC.
 

The Planner

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I keep on saying it, if MKC is so damn big it cannot be ignored, open the Northampton to Bedford line as well. It means slow trains can take the longer route including MKC and the fast ones can stop at Bletchley and then head for Fenny.

As I have said in other threads, you need to have words with Northampton council over that, they have no interest in the line and have recently purchased the last bit of the disused line towards Brackmills near the station off us so they can build a road and open up the area.
 

Phil from Mon

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The Exeter to Waterloo trajectory would lend itself very well to this interlacing of fast and slow, where, after doubling, trains from Exeter to Salisbury, all stations, would feed into fast services at Yeovil or Salisbury.

Which of course is what the Southern (the real one) used to do so well, eg from Waterloo Hampton Courts 2 tph all stations to Surbiton, Portsmouth/Alton stoppers 2tph fast to Surbiton then all stations, connecting into the fasts at Woking for further afield.
 

A0

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As I have said in other threads, you need to have words with Northampton council over that, they have no interest in the line and have recently purchased the last bit of the disused line towards Brackmills near the station off us so they can build a road and open up the area.

Even if it were - it would make EWR an operational nightmare.

You'd need to reverse at Northampton.

Add to that - MKC - Northampton is about 20 mins currently - add time for turnaround and you're looking at a 30 min penalty before you start heading down to Bedford. And as other discussions on this forum concluded you'd be pushing it to get the journey time from Northampton - Bedford much under 40 minutes - the line was 22 miles and not designed for high speed running - and to run it with no stops wouldn't be justified - it would realistically need stops at Olney and Turvey.

Whereas even if you ran services up to MKC, you'd only be looking at a 20 min (5 mins each way, 10 mins turnaround) round trip Bletchley - MKC - Bletchley and probably 30 mins over to Bedford.

The only conceivable use I can see for Northampton with regard to EWR would be to extend the proposed MK - Oxford / Reading service to Northampton - which could be done for operational convenience given a unit sitting in the 'loop' platform (can't remember the number) isn't blocking a running line - whereas pretty much all of MK's platforms would block running lines.
 

Andyjs247

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Although MKC isn't going to be served by true east west services the provision of the line from Aylesbury to Winslow will mean that the Aylesbury services are due to be extended to MKC. In doing so there will be direct services from Winslow and Bletchley (high level) to MKC. Therefore although it wouldn't be a direct service passengers from west of Winslow should be able with a change be able to get there.

Also add pointed out before, there could be semi fast semi long distance services which provide a direct link between Oxford and MKC.

There is due to be 1tph from Oxford/Reading to MKC in addition to 1tph from Oxford/Reading to Bedford. Add in 1tph from Marylebone/Aylesbury to MKC and there will be 2tph Winslow-Bletchley-MKC. There is an additional 1tph path Oxford-MKC for an as yet undefined XC type fast/semi-fast service. If this were to stop elsewhere I'd suggest Bicester (due to double in size with 13000 extra houses planned by 2031) would be the priority as it would then provide 2tph between Bicester and MKC. If it stops everywhere then it's not going to be a fast service.
 

70014IronDuke

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West Coast passengers might be detrained at Bletchley to be put on East West services but there is pretty much zero chance of any trains being diverted to either Marylebone or Paddington, as there just won't be the paths/platform capacity. In order for GWR HSTs to use Marylebone after Christmas, Chiltern had to reduce its service south of Banbury.

While you might be able to route some services via East West if the Oxford-Banbury-Leamington-Birmingham corridor has issues, there are other things to bear in mind, like the speed limit on use of non-tilting stock on the WCML, the time penalty and the need to maintain some sort of service to places immediately north and south of the blockage - e.g. XC is the main operator between Oxford and Banbury, so you couldn't just divert all XC trains and expect people to rely on GWR's sketchy stopping service.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I never said trains could be diverted - just the passengers.

I fully realise (and lament, in an old-fogey, BR way) modern railway managements' huge difficulty, if not total unwillingness, to actually divert real trains across alternative routes.

[I think stock clearance and crew training for such eventualities should be in the franchise agreements, eg Virgin WC should be compelled to train up for, and use, the S&C for diversions when the Shap route is closed, whereas it seems it is merely an option, and they prefer to bustitute.]

But back to EW rail. Yes, I meant de-train. nonetheless, if the WCML is closed for planned PW work, once EW is up and running, specially enhanced services could be run between Marlybone and Bletchley or MK to plug that gap at weekends. Much better than buses, surely?
 

A0

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Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I never said trains could be diverted - just the passengers.

I fully realise (and lament, in an old-fogey, BR way) modern railway managements' huge difficulty, if not total unwillingness, to actually divert real trains across alternative routes.

The problem is the network is much more intensively used than it was in the 60s and 70s. Look at the GW diversions over Christmas / New Year as an example. 30 years ago Banbury - Marylebone and Exeter - Basingstoke were at best hourly services. Plenty of room for slotting in additional services. Now the picture is quite different - Chiltern and SW Trains both had to cancel services to create paths for the GW diversions to use.

The other - relevant - example that was used in the 80s - diverting WCML services via Bedford and onto St Pancras. Again, back then the MML had far less traffic of its own and St Pancras was a vast, under-used terminus. Now, there are pretty much no free slots between Bedford and London - and St Pancras is running at capacity.

That's the reality of the situation - nothing to do with 'privatisation' or 'fragmentation' of the railway - everything to do with the volume of traffic now being handled.

Some diversions are still used - e.g. on the ECML diverts happen via Lincoln and via Cambridge when necessary, but these again have to pathed around existing demand.

[I think stock clearance and crew training for such eventualities should be in the franchise agreements, eg Virgin WC should be compelled to train up for, and use, the S&C for diversions when the Shap route is closed, whereas it seems it is merely an option, and they prefer to bustitute.]

But there are two problems there - one the S&C doesn't serve the places en-route so between Preston and Carlisle, you can't serve any of the WCML's intermediate stations - one good reason to provide a coach substitute.

Secondly, the S&C has long signal blocks and therefore limited capacity. Add to that a low linespeed and you're actually adding more of a time penalty than using the coach option.

People wanting to travel from London - Scotland in those circumstances are better off travelling from Kings Cross. Ditto from the Midlands - use XC services to Edinburgh if they really don't want to use a rail replacement coach.

But back to EW rail. Yes, I meant de-train. nonetheless, if the WCML is closed for planned PW work, once EW is up and running, specially enhanced services could be run between Marlybone and Bletchley or MK to plug that gap at weekends. Much better than buses, surely?

Again - it depends. If they want to travel to the intermediate stations between MKC and London then diverting via Chiltern is no good. Similarly, the Chiltern route is generally busy (both in terms of number of people on the trains and capacity on the line). You try handling a couple of Pendo's worth of passengers onto a 3 car DMU from Aylesbury to Marylebone in addition to the people already planning to travel on that route and you've got a recipe for overcrowding and far more frustrated passengers than if you'd just put those from MK onto a coach.
 

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