East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[si404]

I guess there’s always the possibility that a future new A1 will cross the east/west route without a junction. I think that’s being hypothesised on the “Sabre” roads forum...

I must have missed that post on SABRE - and what its suggesting is something so laughably outrageous (given we're talking about an off-line motorway/expressway unlikely to have many junctions not having a junction with another expressway, despite it being the only major road it crosses), there would have been kick back. Wait, found it - it was in the tinfoil conspiracy strand of that thread.

Having a three-level roundabout at Black Cat, rather than other options that were perhaps more strategic in where the free-flow goes (ie Bedford-North as well as Bedford-Cambridge), might suggest that they hope that the Tempsford/Sandy development will be large, and the traffic at Black Cat would need something to help stop jams from the south. Which is relevant to E-W Rail, as it suggests that Tempsford might be a worthwhile station to build and serve, suggesting certain options over others.

 

[camflyer]

A pedant writes: first roundabout is Buckden, then Black Cat. Black Cat is planned to get grade separation as part of the A428 dualling.

The bit round Sandy and Biggleswade, though...

Woops - your pedantry is quite right. I don't use that part of the A1 very often so while I knew there were some roundabouts still on that stretch I thought the Black Cat was the most northerly.

 

[CdBrux]

http://www.englandseconomicheartlan...of England strategic study stage 3 report.pdf

May not be the latest report available. The very last para mentions EWR thus retaining some sort of link to the thread:

The planned route for East West rail will intersect the study area in the vicinity of Sandy. The Oxford to Cambridge Expressway, if delivered, could intersect the A1 at a
similar location. Potential and planned improvements to east west connectivity within
the study area raise important strategic questions about the level and location of future growth

 

[camflyer]

"Potential and planned improvements to east west connectivity within the study area raise important strategic questions about the level and location of future growth

Of course we will never get an answer to those "important strategic questions" as we are incapable of joined up thinking when it comes to road, rail and urban planning.

 

[martinr1]

May I suggest that this thread be split into actual physical works being undertaken and a separate thread for all the background information?

 

[CdBrux]

are any physical works already taking place?

 

[work-traveller]

are any physical works already taking place?

Not much so far, but in summary:

• Removal of existing track between Gavry Junction (Bicester) and Claydon Junction (Calvert) [complete]
• Installation of new OLE support structures on WCML to allow temporary lowering of OLE on WCML [complete]
• Installation of environmental mitigation sites [in progress]
• Lowering of OLE on WCML under Bletchley Flyover [later this year]
• Removal of existing track between west Bletchley and east side of Bletchley Flyover, to fcilitate Flyover works [later this year]
• Contruction compounds established and off-line highway improvements installed [later this year]

 

[DaveN]

http://www.englandseconomicheartland.com/Documents/A1 East of England strategic study stage 3 report.pdf

May not be the latest report available. The very last para mentions EWR thus retaining some sort of link to the thread:

This is obviously a little out of date now. The authors didn't realise that the A1 to Caxton Gibbet improvements are the Oxford to Cambridge expressway.
Clearly if there was an intention to build the "offline" motorway A1 in the 2020s, then they would do little to the Black Cat as part of the expressway work - waiting for its replacement with the new motorway.

Should routes B, C, D or E get chosen for East West Rail, having the detail of what is happening at the Black Cat now is useful. The updated plans for the A1(M) will then need to take the railway into consideration.

Of course if route A gets chosen, then the railway remains south of the expressway throughout. The updated plans for the A1(M) would then need to take the railway into account west of Sandy.

 

[si404]

Clearly if there was an intention to build the "offline" motorway A1 in the 2020s, then they would do little to the Black Cat as part of the expressway work - waiting for its replacement with the new motorway.

Nonsense - not only is there the period between the two schemes, but if the plan is to have a linear conurbation of 80-100k people along the A1 from Buckden to Biggleswade, then the A1 would remain a busy road, even if it is merely of local significance, due to being the main distributor of that urban area - the main way to/from the Strategic Road Network, and between the different towns of the area.

That they are building a 3-level junction at Black Cat suggests that there will be a lot of housebuilding on the A1 corridor - which in turn suggests that Tempsford is worth serving with E-W Rail.

 

[doa46231]

Travelling from Milton Keynes to Oxford on an X5 coach the other day, I wondered if it was worth proceeding with the EW project at all.
As originally proposed as a fast cross-country electrified line suitable for inter-city type trains and also freight, it had some purpose.
As a DMU local service it seems unnecessary.
In the coach I had a comfortable seat, ample leg room, a good view out and no bombadment with warnings and messages.
The ride was smooth and fairly quiet, certainly as good as a DMU.
It also serves the centre of the towns and cities which a railway will not.
The EW rail has been descoped as to make it hardly worth the effort.
It misses out the most important settlement on the whole line, Milton Keynes, a growing city of 1/4 million people.
Serving Bedford is also problematic.
Where are all the pasengers going to come from?
There seems to be a touching faith in the prospect of thousands of folk in Cambridge wanting to be in Oxford and vice-versa.
I doubt if the Bedford to Cambridge bit will ever be built, and even if it is there will already be a motorway linking all parts with electric coaches rivalling any journey times a local railway service caan produce.
Just rebuild the Bicester and Aylesbury to MK bit and ditch the rest!

 

[Bald Rick]

Where are all the pasengers going to come from?

The million houses that are proposed to be built on the corridor over the next half century.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

What is the BCR for this scheme?

 

[DarloRich]

Travelling from Milton Keynes to Oxford on an X5 coach the other day, I wondered if it was worth proceeding with the EW project at all.
As originally proposed as a fast cross-country electrified line suitable for inter-city type trains and also freight, it had some purpose.
As a DMU local service it seems unnecessary.
In the coach I had a comfortable seat, ample leg room, a good view out and no bombadment with warnings and messages.
The ride was smooth and fairly quiet, certainly as good as a DMU.
It also serves the centre of the towns and cities which a railway will not.
The EW rail has been descoped as to make it hardly worth the effort.
It misses out the most important settlement on the whole line, Milton Keynes, a growing city of 1/4 million people.
Serving Bedford is also problematic.
Where are all the pasengers going to come from?
There seems to be a touching faith in the prospect of thousands of folk in Cambridge wanting to be in Oxford and vice-versa.
I doubt if the Bedford to Cambridge bit will ever be built, and even if it is there will already be a motorway linking all parts with electric coaches rivalling any journey times a local railway service caan produce.
Just rebuild the Bicester and Aylesbury to MK bit and ditch the rest!

If you used the X5 and cant see where the passengers are going to come from i worry. A case of looking but not seeing! That is before we consider how many houses are planned for the length of the line.

It also isnt just a DMU local service. I am not sure you understand the proposed service patterns.

E -W doesn't miss out MK at all. MK is a central part of the proposed service.

How has E -W been descoped so much that it isnt worth bothering about?

What is the BCR for this scheme?

lots

 

[Bletchleyite]

E -W doesn't miss out MK at all. MK is a central part of the proposed service.

Yes and no - no MK to Bedford service is proposed, which will mean Stagecoach continue to do well on that section, though I could see the Bicester-MK section getting dropped unless Buckingham alone provides enough custom to keep it going.

I personally think the lack of MKC to/from Bedford, even with a reverse, is nuts.

 

[doa46231]

Just because a lot of houses are due to be built, heaven knows when and where, does not mean the occupants will travel by train.
The railway, if ever completed, may still not be convenient for those people.
And what would they use the railway for?
Cambridge and Oxford are centres of employment but the venues are diverse so commuting by train is not suitable.
MK has employment opportunites but the trains from the east wont go there!.
I wonder who does understand E-W rail?
The X5 runs every half hour and is rarely full in my experience, and it is more convenient for the towns and cities than the railway will be.
People in the new houses will still find the coach service more useful than trains.
The build up of population will be very slow, 50 years was suggested, so who will use the railway in the meantime?
In that timescale, most cars will be electric and many semi-autonomous, as will be the coaches.
Unless the trains are a darn sight more comfortable than they are now, which is unlikely, who is going to desert their comfortable, economic and reliable cars for a
smelly, noisy, uncomfortable DMU. And dont forget, they'll have 6 lane motorway to use, free of charge.
No, westwards direct to MK will probably be well used, but eastwards it will be a white elephant.
The Beds-Bletchley line gives us a clue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Beds-Bletchley line gives us a clue.

It does and it doesn't. A semifast service serving MKC would no doubt carry a lot more passengers than it presently does.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes and no - no MK to Bedford service is proposed, which will mean Stagecoach continue to do well on that section, though I could see the Bicester-MK section getting dropped unless Buckingham alone provides enough custom to keep it going.

I personally think the lack of MKC to/from Bedford, even with a reverse, is nuts.

As a Vale user i don't disagree - the real test will be can the express E-W services towards Bedford, with a change at Blethcley, offer a competitive time versus the coach. it certainly offers more opportunities for passengers to stay within rail.

Just because a lot of houses are due to be built, heaven knows when and where, does not mean the occupants will travel by train.

Have you looked at the development plans? OBVIOUSLY not everyone living in those new houses is going to use the train. however with such a large number f peple to use a large number will. The railway line ( and better roads) are crucial to delivering the housing growth needed in this area

The railway, if ever completed, may still not be convenient for those people.
And what would they use the railway for?
Cambridge and Oxford are centres of employment but the venues are diverse so commuting by train is not suitable.
MK has employment opportunites but the trains from the east wont go there!.

They will with one change. The key traffic flow into MK is from the Aylesbury direction. Try driving in from that direction in the morning. That market is served. That is where vast numbers of new houses are planned.

I wonder who does understand E-W rail?

not you!

The X5 runs every half hour and is rarely full in my experience, and it is more convenient for the towns and cities than the railway will be.
People in the new houses will still find the coach service more useful than trains.
The build up of population will be very slow, 50 years was suggested, so who will use the railway in the meantime?
In that timescale, most cars will be electric and many semi-autonomous, as will be the coaches.
Unless the trains are a darn sight more comfortable than they are now, which is unlikely, who is going to desert their comfortable, economic and reliable cars for a
smelly, noisy, uncomfortable DMU. And dont forget, they'll have 6 lane motorway to use, free of charge.
No, westwards direct to MK will probably be well used, but eastwards it will be a white elephant.

This is preposterous and fantasy world stuff. It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop. if not please try and at least grasp where the houses are planned and in what number.

The Beds-Bletchley line gives us a clue.

Are you actually comparing a one train an hour rural railway serving small villages to what E-W rail is planned to be? Honestly?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

though I could see the Bicester-MK section getting dropped unless Buckingham alone provides enough custom to keep it going.

I personally think the lack of MKC to/from Bedford, even with a reverse, is nuts.

I agree with you on the last part it is nuts there is no MKC-Bedford service but I do not agree with your first part as this is the core part of the scheme!

 

[Richard Ingram]

I agree with you on the last part it is nuts there is no MKC-Bedford service but I do not agree with your first part as this is the core part of the scheme!

I thought Bletchleyite meant dropped from the X5 route, once the Western section of EW Rail was completed.

 

[doa46231]

They will with one change. The key traffic flow into MK is from the Aylesbury direction. Try driving in from that direction in the morning. That market is served. That is where vast numbers of new houses are planned.

One change: what from a train to a taxi or a bus!
Who is in fantasy land now?

his is preposterous and fantasy world stuff. It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop. if not please try and at least grasp where the houses are planned and in what number.

Dont let your arrogance lead you to insulting people who have an opposing view to you.
Have you thought you might possibly be wromg?
Of course not, people like you never do!
Dont tell me to stop. It is none of your business, and I'll write what I like.
The fact that you, particularly are riled gives me great satisfaction.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I thought Bletchleyite meant dropped from the X5 route, once the Western section of EW Rail was completed.

Sorry must read that wrong!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought Bletchleyite meant dropped from the X5 route, once the Western section of EW Rail was completed.

Yes, I did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One change: what from a train to a taxi or a bus!

Has the train service from MKC to Bletchley (and on to Euston or the Southern service) escaped your notice?

I do however think a change is a substantial barrier.

 

[muddythefish]

Just rebuild the Bicester and Aylesbury to MK bit and ditch the rest!

Have you thought of getting a job at the DfT? It's exactly this sort of pro-road negative rail thinking that has made rail reopenings so difficult in England.

 

[DarloRich]

One change: what from a train to a taxi or a bus!
Who is in fantasy land now?

what are you talking about?

Dont let your arrogance lead you to insulting people who have an opposing view to you.
Have you thought you might possibly be wromg?
Of course not, people like you never do!
Dont tell me to stop. It is none of your business, and I'll write what I like.
The fact that you, particularly are riled gives me great satisfaction.

Sigh. still no idea what you are on about. Your posts are a stranger to reality and based on, charitably, a poor understanding of the plans for the area served by E-W and for E-W rail in general. Every post merely confirms this. Please feel free to carry on but do try to grasp the concepts involved and please try to express your views in a cogent, mature and sensible format which might lend them some weight.

 

[cle]

I would never catch a coach in my life, same for many. Rail competes with the car.

The fact is, this is a strategic piece of infrastructure which creates a whole new regional network, a long-distance main line and all sorts of commuting opportunities around its nodes. It is also very useful for freight, for students, for leisure/shopping - and for relief of other lines.

No there aren't millions of dons going between Oxford and Cambridge, that's all symbolic, wistful bollocks. Cambridge, MK, Oxford, Reading - these are the best economies in the south (some might argue the country) which are not London. It's about jobs, getting to them, and non-London growth. And housing said new people!

 

[HowardGWR]

I would never catch a coach in my life, same for many. Rail competes with the car.

That is a subjective view and self-evidently erroneous. Why is the fact that you never take a coach in any way relevant to what others do?
People who go by coach are those without cars or non-drivers for other reasons. Rail is directly competing with coach on the routes where they both operate.

 

[Clayton]

Just because a lot of houses are due to be built, heaven knows when and where, does not mean the occupants will travel by train.
The railway, if ever completed, may still not be convenient for those people.
And what would they use the railway for?
Cambridge and Oxford are centres of employment but the venues are diverse so commuting by train is not suitable.
MK has employment opportunites but the trains from the east wont go there!.
I wonder who does understand E-W rail?
The X5 runs every half hour and is rarely full in my experience, and it is more convenient for the towns and cities than the railway will be.
People in the new houses will still find the coach service more useful than trains.
The build up of population will be very slow, 50 years was suggested, so who will use the railway in the meantime?
In that timescale, most cars will be electric and many semi-autonomous, as will be the coaches.
Unless the trains are a darn sight more comfortable than they are now, which is unlikely, who is going to desert their comfortable, economic and reliable cars for a
smelly, noisy, uncomfortable DMU. And dont forget, they'll have 6 lane motorway to use, free of charge.
No, westwards direct to MK will probably be well used, but eastwards it will be a white elephant.
The Beds-Bletchley line gives us a clue.

There is no parking in Oxford or Cambridge and soon there will be a congestion charge no doubt, plus houses are massively expensive. People will move to places with good rail connections to their work , you’ll see new patterns of movement. I don’t think a coach is attractive as it gets stuck in traffic

 

[Clayton]

One change: what from a train to a taxi or a bus!
Who is in fantasy land now?


Dont let your arrogance lead you to insulting people who have an opposing view to you.
Have you thought you might possibly be wromg?
Of course not, people like you never do!
Dont tell me to stop. It is none of your business, and I'll write what I like.
The fact that you, particularly are riled gives me great satisfaction.

What do you mean ‘people like you’? Why the desire to annoy one of the most knowledgeable and courteous people on here? Who are you anyway?

 

[cle]

That is a subjective view and self-evidently erroneous. Why is the fact that you never take a coach in any way relevant to what others do?
People who go by coach are those without cars or non-drivers for other reasons. Rail is directly competing with coach on the routes where they both operate.

I don't think you get the point. There is a market, suppressed demand some call it, which currently does not exist as the only public transport option is coach, and many would not bother. They would drive, or not make that journey at all. Rail unlocks that new/hidden demand.

Of course my own preference is subjective, that is the definition of it, if unclear? Many are the same though, and do not travel by coach. Not snobbery, but facts. Buses and coaches are an inferior experience to rail or one's own car. But EWR will open up a whole new market place, and world for these people.