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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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The Planner

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At the Public Inquiry last year I argued that the new high level platforms should be reversible so that trains on MV could reverse and go to MKC. (I know P5 has that capability but it needs more than one platform to be workable) Only needs a couple of points and a handful of signals. Much cheaper than a new chord. But NR wouldn't have it. It wasn't in DfT's spec and would add to cost so ruled out. Very short sighted.
Trains from Bicester can go back to Bicester from Bletchley P7 as that will be a signaled route. You can do that move you are suggesting on the flyover, but only as a shunt from P8 to P7. You would need an extra route from MV6 signal at Fenny Stratford to go bi-di into P7 on the flyover to reverse.
 
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edwin_m

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At the Public Inquiry last year I argued that the new high level platforms should be reversible so that trains on MV could reverse and go to MKC. (I know P5 has that capability but it needs more than one platform to be workable) Only needs a couple of points and a handful of signals. Much cheaper than a new chord. But NR wouldn't have it. It wasn't in DfT's spec and would add to cost so ruled out. Very short sighted.
Not sure what MV is but I presume you are referring to a train between MK and Bedford. There would probably be a concern about the gradient on the new platforms, as standards prefer less than 1 in 500 for places where crew have to leave the train. I think an exception could be made subject to risk assessment. But as P5 could be used today, and P6 could probably be made reversible if really necessary, there is a reasonably practicable alternative that eliminates the risk.
 

The Planner

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Not sure what MV is but I presume you are referring to a train between MK and Bedford. There would probably be a concern about the gradient on the new platforms, as standards prefer less than 1 in 500 for places where crew have to leave the train. I think an exception could be made subject to risk assessment. But as P5 could be used today, and P6 could probably be made reversible if really necessary, there is a reasonably practicable alternative that eliminates the risk.
MV = Marston Vale. The high level platforms will be on a 1 in 261 gradient looking at the signalling plans.
 

MarkRedon

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Can we sum this up as meaning that DarloRich (and many others) can have a usable direct MKC service all for a set of points, some no doubt fiendishly-complicated signalling adjustments and the driver having to change ends? This reminds me very much of the Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Westgate operation with its complex interaction with the mainline though Westgate. Would there be a similar performance penalty, and is that a price worth paying for multiple new journey possibilities?
 

swt_passenger

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Can we sum this up as meaning that DarloRich (and many others) can have a usable direct MKC service all for a set of points, some no doubt fiendishly-complicated signalling adjustments and the driver having to change ends?
I don’t think you can say that, because whatever was to happen at Bletchley there would presumably still be no terminating platform capacity at Milton Keynes...
 

MarkRedon

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The underused MKC platform 2A will not suffice? But yes, I worry about what will happen when East-West gets busy and there's a train stuck at Bletchley HL awaiting a path to a platform at MKC when the next Cambridge service is waiting to enter the station.

How much performance risk is allowed so as to avoid having to build a difficult / impossible chord?
 

CW2

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Surely trains from Marston Vale would go to MK first, reverse, then call at Bletchley HL platforms on their way to Oxford / Aylesbury (and vice versa)?
 

The Planner

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The underused MKC platform 2A will not suffice? But yes, I worry about what will happen when East-West gets busy and there's a train stuck at Bletchley HL awaiting a path to a platform at MKC when the next Cambridge service is waiting to enter the station.

How much performance risk is allowed so as to avoid having to build a difficult / impossible chord?
Why would the train sit in the platform? you send it off down to Denbigh Hall South Jn to wait a WCML slot and the following Cambridge goes into the station.
 

cle

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Another side platform at MKC skewed a little south might do the job, if 2A isn't enough. I can't see more than 2tph to MV, plus the regional EWR services. Reversing would allow Cambridge services as well as locals, if there was demand. I see MKC as having demand more from the Oxford direction, and as a WCML hub.

From Cambridge, you'd be better off grabbing the WCML via London, and HS2 might be an option by then. Or Nuneaton.
 

Class 170101

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Surely trains from Marston Vale would go to MK first, reverse, then call at Bletchley HL platforms on their way to Oxford / Aylesbury (and vice versa)?

No they would pass through Bletchley Station twice of they did that.
 

Midnight Sun

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I would guess Cambridge is the main attraction, as a major employment centre with a housing shortage, so the Bedford-Cambridge section would get very little use until completed in full.
Milton Keynes is also a major employment centre, So you have flow in both directions at peak times. Few people get on or off in Bedford, most travel through.

This morning in Bedford bus station was chaos with the 905 departing before the X5 arrived and the same with the 905 arriving after the X5 departed. Leaving people hanging a round for nearly half a hour for the next one. Which made people late for work. The new round the houses route for the 905 takes longer and does not serve Madingley Road park & ride as it did before. Many people used to get off here to work across the road. People that I work with were more than a hour late in to work due to this new service and the need to get another bus from Parker's Place to Madingley Road. Few people left the bus at the college or the Science Park. I find out tomorrow what things were like on the return journey. I think that many will return to using their cars.

It now takes an 1 hour and ten minuites from Bedford to Cambridge to cover 31 miles. The distance from Milton Keynes to Cambridge is 47 miles by road or 39 miles as the crows flys. With the need to change buses, it now take over two hours from Cambridge to Milton Keynes by bus. Cut the journey time by rail by the new link to less than a hour you have a ready market for passengers.
 

edwin_m

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Milton Keynes is also a major employment centre, So you have flow in both directions at peak times. Few people get on or off in Bedford, most travel through.
My post you quoted was in response to a suggestion that the railway might go no further east than an ECML interchange. You appear to have mixed it up with (arguably off-topic) discussion about the bus.
 

BrianW

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A bus full of passengers an hour is hardly railway territory.
This now being the year 2020, I thought that showing the original posting of this thread above might be putting matters even further into perspective.
My post you quoted was in response to a suggestion that the railway might go no further east than an ECML interchange. You appear to have mixed it up with (arguably off-topic) discussion about the bus.
Taken together, these tell us 'something' about origins, destinations, flow patterns at present. Slowing up on projects is entirely understandable just now with great uncertainty about 'returns' of passengers, whether commuters, shoppers, tourists, students, and of revenues, incl freight; let alone government 'support' for 'investment'.
 

Midnight Sun

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My post you quoted was in response to a suggestion that the railway might go no further east than an ECML interchange. You appear to have mixed it up with (arguably off-topic) discussion about the bus.
I did not say that the railway should not go any further east than the ECML. What I said was that the Eastern section be built in two sections with the Bedford-ECML section built first followed by the much harder to build ECML-Cambridge section. The X5 bus is very much interlinked with the EastWest Route. Which shows curret traffic flows.
 

edwin_m

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Taken together, these tell us 'something' about origins, destinations, flow patterns at present.
I did not say that the railway should not go any further east than the ECML. What I said was that the Eastern section be built in two sections with the Bedford-ECML section built first followed by the much harder to build ECML-Cambridge section. The X5 bus is very much interlinked with the EastWest Route. Which shows curret traffic flows.
I think the bus service say relatively little about how many people will use the train between MK and further east, simply because it's unlikely that the train will get any nearer to MK than Bletchley.

The route might open as far as the ECML as part of a phased opening, though this might require terminating facilities there that wouldn't be used much once the rest of the route opened. However if ECML-Cambridge is more difficult then work on it should be started first, to allow the whole route to open at about the same time. My feeling is that a route ending at the ECML will carry very few people.
 

richieb1971

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Since HS2 was on the news yesterday about the build starting, is EWR on track as I read earlier in the thread there is some order to which things will be built?
 

hwl

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Since HS2 was on the news yesterday about the build starting, is EWR on track as I read earlier in the thread there is some order to which things will be built?
Bicester - Calvert needs to be done by October 2021 (from memory...)
 

davetheguard

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This is probably a silly question, and the answer is probably somewhere within the previous 138 pages, & counting, of this thread. But I'm going to ask it anyway.

I've seen the pictures on here of the demolition of Bletchley flyover over the tracks of the WCML. Are the contractors on site purely working there to demolish the old viaduct, or does their contract also include the building of the replacement spans? If not, has a separate contract for this work already been let, and if so when will we see work on the new spans start?
 

hwl

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This is probably a silly question, and the answer is probably somewhere within the previous 138 pages, & counting, of this thread. But I'm going to ask it anyway.

I've seen the pictures on here of the demolition of Bletchley flyover over the tracks of the WCML. Are the contractors on site purely working there to demolish the old viaduct, or does their contract also include the building of the replacement spans? If not, has a separate contract for this work already been let, and if so when will we see work on the new spans start?
The physical demolition contracts are separate to the new build.
Limited piling has already started for the replacement, the construction compound & access to the east is largely complete (access from Water Eaton Road), the new OHLE masts are already in. The new structure is a giant box similar to the Bermondsey diveunder so 2 giant walls to the East and West of the WCML will be the first above ground sign.
Still plenty of demolition to go as the focus has been on the decks so far, the rest is smaller and lighter at least.
 

edwin_m

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Depends on the argument on who is building the overbridge over HS2, can't remember if that is solved yet.
Before they start large volumes of HS2 construction work, I presume they'll need rail access to the Calvert railhead and future maintenance depot which itself is probably one of the first things they build. That needs EWR pretty much complete from at least one of Bletchley, Bicester (including the overbridge) or Aylesbury (which they're realigning a large section of so could be the last of all).
 

The Planner

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Before they start large volumes of HS2 construction work, I presume they'll need rail access to the Calvert railhead and future maintenance depot which itself is probably one of the first things they build. That needs EWR pretty much complete from at least one of Bletchley, Bicester (including the overbridge) or Aylesbury (which they're realigning a large section of so could be the last of all).
It is all aggregate and other fill in first apparently, you don't need a railhead for that as they can do what FCC do and just JCB it out the wagons. FCC will close for a while until their new facility is built further south and HS2 will take the waste paths for their use during that period.
 

MarkRedon

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It is all aggregate and other fill in first apparently, you don't need a railhead for that as they can do what FCC do and just JCB it out the wagons. FCC will close for a while until their new facility is built further south and HS2 will take the waste paths for their use during that period.
In case you were wondering - I was - FCC is the company which runs the Calvert waste site. Their website, which is at https://www.fccenvironment.co.uk/, claims that "FCC Environment is one of the UK’s leading waste and resource management companies."

The website is not necessarily well-maintained, with some content badly out-of-date.

I cannot locate a planning application, presumably necessary for a significant "new facility". But maybe with Boris' bonfire of planning regs, that would no longer be necessary?

I don't yet see an answer here to edwin_m's original question, which is not restricted to current waste or spoil operations.
 

swt_passenger

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In case you were wondering - I was - FCC is the company which runs the Calvert waste site. Their website, which is at https://www.fccenvironment.co.uk/, claims that "FCC Environment is one of the UK’s leading waste and resource management companies."

The website is not necessarily well-maintained, with some content badly out-of-date.

I cannot locate a planning application, presumably necessary for a significant "new facility". But maybe with Boris' bonfire of planning regs, that would no longer be necessary?
I expect re-siting the waste handling facilty won’t need a separate full planning application as it will be included in the HS2 Act?

Ah, following up, it was a TWA Order:
seems they came up with a different solution to what was allowed by the HS2 Act, using a TWA order.

But the principle is the same, it subsumes the requirement for a normal planning application to the local authority...
 
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edwin_m

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It is all aggregate and other fill in first apparently, you don't need a railhead for that as they can do what FCC do and just JCB it out the wagons. FCC will close for a while until their new facility is built further south and HS2 will take the waste paths for their use during that period.
Apologies if I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that the whole railhead was built before anything else, but they'd need a siding or two to unload trains, a run-round and, most importantly for this thread, a connection to the rest of the rail network!
 

MarkRedon

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I expect re-siting the waste handling facilty won’t need a separate full planning application as it will be included in the HS2 Act?

Ah, following up, it was a TWA Order:
seems they came up with a different solution to what was allowed by the HS2 Act, using a TWA order.

But the principle is the same, it subsumes the requirement for a normal planning application to the local authority...
Thank you very much - that is very clear insofar as the FCC operation continuation is concerned.

Apologies if I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that the whole railhead was built before anything else, but they'd need a siding or two to unload trains, a run-round and, most importantly for this thread, a connection to the rest of the rail network!

Supplementary question, then: this connection requirement will presumably continue to be met via the existing rump of the Bicester to Bletchley line during HS2 construction. Will it be necessary to retain it once HS2 (and EWR2) are in place? For comparison, the infrastructure depot at Villognon on the LGV south to Bordeaux has two-way junctions for trains north and south onto the LGV itself. The line through the depot has been extended back to a junction with the classic line between Poitiers and Angouleme.
 

edwin_m

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Supplementary question, then: this connection requirement will presumably continue to be met via the existing rump of the Bicester to Bletchley line during HS2 construction. Will it be necessary to retain it once HS2 (and EWR2) are in place? For comparison, the infrastructure depot at Villognon on the LGV south to Bordeaux has two-way junctions for trains north and south onto the LGV itself. The line through the depot has been extended back to a junction with the classic line between Poitiers and Angouleme.
I believe the intention is to retain connections to the classic network so engineering materials can be brought in at Calvert and moved along HS2 to wherever needed. It's a pretty sensible way to move bulk materials when the destination is by definition rail-connected, and it's pretty difficult to move a long welded rail any other way. With three routes in, all relatively uncongested compared with others in the area, Calvert is the ideal place for this. However I expect the total anticipated volume on completion with be much lower now they have gone for slab track so there is no ballast to replace.
 

MarkRedon

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I believe the intention is to retain connections to the classic network so engineering materials can be brought in at Calvert and moved along HS2 to wherever needed. It's a pretty sensible way to move bulk materials when the destination is by definition rail-connected, and it's pretty difficult to move a long welded rail any other way. With three routes in, all relatively uncongested compared with others in the area, Calvert is the ideal place for this. However I expect the total anticipated volume on completion with be much lower now they have gone for slab track so there is no ballast to replace.

Thank you, that sounds eminently sensible - if a little at risk from zealous value engineering!
 
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