East-West Rail (EWR) countdown to entry into service

[Sun Chariot]

Well, for what it's worth, the EWR line from MP 29m15c just east of Oxford Canal Jn, to Bletchley

Ah, you've solved a question in my mind. My photos (link post #35) include two shots looking due east from Launton former crossing; and MP 17 is visible to the left (north side) of the 168s and the 800.

I had mulled which way the mileposts counted up and from where they start. Clearly, they count up from East to West.
Where is MP 0 ? Denbigh Hall South Jcn?

 

[Nicholas43]

I tried explaining to my wife, the origins of "Varsity". When I said "Uni-varsity" in a very plummy voice, she looked blank.

She was right, of course. In the 1960s, when there were trains on both branch lines, Bletchley to Oxford, and Bletchley to Bedford and Cambridge, nobody called them "the" "Varsity" line. Indeed, no-one, except rugby oafs, spoke of a "Varsity" at all.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @Nicholas43 - I was reading your other interesting thread from last year:

The name "varsity line"

Discussion of the former LNWR lines (plural) from Bletchley to Cambridge, and Bletchley to Oxford, has for some years claimed that they were collectively known as "the Varsity line". I was at one of the universities in the 1960s, and unwisely had a girlfriend in the other. It was indeed possible...

www.railforums.co.uk

I lived in Bicester from 1991 to 1993 and I recall a local press (Bicester Advertiser) article's use of "Varsity Line" in referring to the overall route.

 

[12LDA28C]

You will be able to make a journey like this: Oxford - Bletchley - Euston. Reasonably obvious I would have thought?

You don’t say?! My query was more with the ‘branch line’ and ‘absurd marketing hype’ quote, surely that was obvious.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Today's paths fed into RTT:
5Q40 Paddington - MKC - Euston (arr 10:58)
3Q50 Euston (dep 11:19) - MKC - North Pole
5Q46 Euston (dep 11:48) - MKC - Paddington

Realtime Trains | Departures from Winslow between 0600 and 2000 on 30/10/2024

Train information at Winslow between 0600 and 2000 on 30/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

(12:00) 3Q50 has run and 5Q46 path has not been used.

 

[Class15]

You don’t say?! My query was more with the ‘branch line’ and ‘absurd marketing hype’ quote, surely that was obvious.

For a line that has 1 reopened station plus one extension of an existing station, I would say there has been ‘absurd marketing hype’. And it is a ‘branch line’, for now at least, with it being just Oxford - MKC.

 

[paok]

Today's paths fed into RTT:
5Q40 Paddington - MKC - Euston (arr 10:58)
3Q50 Euston (dep 11:19) - MKC - North Pole
5Q46 Euston (dep 11:48) - MKC - Paddington

Realtime Trains | Departures from Winslow between 0600 and 2000 on 30/10/2024

Train information at Winslow between 0600 and 2000 on 30/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I presume  either 3Q50  or 5Q46 will run, but not both?

Looks like 5Q40 was pathed as Class 80x then changes to Class 350 EMU at Milton Keynes??

 

[12LDA28C]

Looks like 5Q40 was pathed as Class 80x then changes to Class 350 EMU at Milton Keynes??

Nothing unusual about that.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Looks like 5Q40 was pathed as Class 80x then changes to Class 350 EMU at Milton Keynes??

It reflects the 800 running on diesel until MKC and then on 25kv AC MKC to Euston.

 

[zwk500]

It reflects the 800 running on diesel until MKC and then on 25kv AV MKC to Euston.

I expect it reflects the lack of SRTs for 800 on any mode for that section.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I expect it reflects the lack of SRTs for 800 on any mode for that section.

True!

 

[zwk500]

True!

For anything not in the normal timetable, changing the model train used for the timings en-route is very standard practice as getting new SRTs at short notice is difficult to impossible, and using a comparable timing load is part of the skill of a planner.

It is not feasible to have a full database of runtimes for every train on every route in the country making every possible moves, so there will always be gaps. Eventually NR intend to transition to process that is capable of calculating the runtimes as the schedule is planned and amended (as has already happened in other countries) but the data quality and quantity required (both train and infrastructure) is some way off that being rolled out nationally.

 

[The Planner]

It is not feasible to have a full database of runtimes for every train on every route in the country making every possible moves, so there will always be gaps. Eventually NR intend to transition to process that is capable of calculating the runtimes as the schedule is planned and amended (as has already happened in other countries) but the data quality and quantity required (both train and infrastructure) is some way off that being rolled out nationally.

They said that in 2010.....

 

[zwk500]

They said that in 2010.....

Hence 'eventually' and 'some way off'....

 

[ayubdaud]

Would there not be Avanti 80x run times they can use rather than 350?

 

[The Planner]

Would there not be Avanti 80x run times they can use rather than 350?

Not if it was booked on the slows.

 

[12LDA28C]

For a line that has 1 reopened station plus one extension of an existing station, I would say there has been ‘absurd marketing hype’. And it is a ‘branch line’, for now at least, with it being just Oxford - MKC.

If you think a 100mph main line twin-track railway is a 'branch line' then you seem to have little understanding of the UK rail network. You also seem to have forgotten the other rebuilt stations at the western end of EWR as well as the brand new station that was built at Oxford Parkway which are all part of the same 'branch line', are they not?

 

[Class 170101]

I expect it reflects the lack of SRTs for 800 on any mode for that section.

They exist

Would there not be Avanti 80x run times they can use rather than 350?

Yes

Not if it was booked on the slows.

See below Class 80x timed SL.

Realtime Trains | 1F13 0820 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street | 16/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1F13 0820 departure from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street on 16/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2024 ==

Bletchley High Level has turnback facility for trains from Oxford in either platform. AIUI there is no bi-di facility to the east.

Not even to the junction where Fenny Stratford is?

Disappointing if so

 

[12LDA28C]

They exist

Yes

See below Class 80x timed SL.

Realtime Trains | 1F13 0820 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street | 16/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1F13 0820 departure from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street on 16/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2024 ==


Not even to the junction where Fenny Stratford is?

Disappointing if so

At the north end of BLU Platform 8 is a fixed red signal. A reversal is available at a crossover at Bletchley West Junction but as another poster commented, if you wanted to reverse at Bletchley from the Bedford direction you'd just do so in Platform 5 or 6.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2024 ==

Ah, you've solved a question in my mind. My photos (link post #35) include two shots looking due east from Launton former crossing; and MP 17 is visible to the left (north side) of the 168s and the 800.

I had mulled which way the mileposts counted up and from where they start. Clearly, they count up from East to West.
Where is MP 0 ? Denbigh Hall South Jcn?

MP0 is actually at the site of the former Flyover Junction (a few chains west of what is now Bletchley West Junction). Denbigh Hall South Jn is at 47m 52c.

 

[zwk500]

I had mulled which way the mileposts counted up and from where they start. Clearly, they count up from East to West.
Where is MP 0 ? Denbigh Hall South Jcn?

MP0 is actually at the site of the former Flyover Junction (a few chains west of what is now Bletchley West Junction). Denbigh Hall South Jn is at 47m 52c.

To add to this, there's technically 2 Zero MPs - The main one for EWR is at the former junction south of Bletchley where the original connection to the fast lines prior to the flyover was, and this mileage increases from East to West, despite the line direction having being down from Oxford.
The other is the one @12LDA28C mentions, at the former Flyover Junction (OXD mileage 0m66ch) that increases from West to East (i.e. In the Down direction) that forms the datum for the connections to both Fenny Stratford and Denbigh Hall South Jn.

Sectional appendix available here: https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...(South) Sectional Appendix September 2024.pdf
Extract showing mileages:

It's a shame the opportunity wasn't taken to remile the whole line - either continuing the GW mileage from Paddington via Oxford, or a new 0 at Oxford North Jn, but I guess as the old mileages existed and Oxford North Jn - Bicester Gavray Jn was in use trying to change mileages was seen as too big a job and putting in an additional change at Gavray Jn didn't make much sense.

 

[DarloRich]

Not even to the junction where Fenny Stratford is?

At the north end of BLU Platform 8 is a fixed red signal. A reversal is available at a crossover at Bletchley West Junction but as another poster commented, if you wanted to reverse at Bletchley from the Bedford direction you'd just do so in Platform 5 or 6.

There must be because to get to the depot you will have to either reverse at Fenny Stratford & P5/6 OR Reverse at Denbigh Hall & P5/6 ( and there is only one line into P5 from this direction)

 

[12LDA28C]

To add to this, there's technically 2 Zero MPs - The main one for EWR is at the former junction south of Bletchley where the original connection to the fast lines prior to the flyover was, and this mileage increases from East to West, despite the line direction having being down from Oxford.
The other is the one @12LDA28C mentions, at the former Flyover Junction (OXD mileage 0m66ch) that increases from West to East (i.e. In the Down direction) that forms the datum for the connections to both Fenny Stratford and Denbigh Hall South Jn.

Sectional appendix available here: https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs September 24/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix September 2024.pdf
Extract showing mileages: View attachment 168598

It's a shame the opportunity wasn't taken to remile the whole line - either continuing the GW mileage from Paddington via Oxford, or a new 0 at Oxford North Jn, but I guess as the old mileages existed and Oxford North Jn - Bicester Gavray Jn was in use trying to change mileages was seen as too big a job and putting in an additional change at Gavray Jn didn't make much sense.

The location at which the mileage changes (MP0BFO/MP0m66cOXD) at the former Flyover Junction gives increases in mileage in both directions. Your excerpt from the Sectional Appendix clearly shows the mileage increasing from East to West from MP0 and also from West to East from MP0.66. This MP0 is the main, or indeed only one applicable to EWR, surely?

 

[zwk500]

The location at which the mileage changes (MP0BFO/MP0m66cOXD) at the former Flyover Junction gives increases in mileage in both directions. Your excerpt from the Sectional Appendix clearly shows the mileage increasing from East to West from MP0 and also from West to East from MP0.66. This MP0 is the main, or indeed only one applicable to EWR, surely?

The OXD milepost 0 is located at the former junction on the WCML immediately south of Bletchley where the at-level connection was made on the fast line/down side with the north facing curve. Although the track no longer exists for this curve, it is this milepost that distances for Winslow, Calydon, Bicester etc are measured from - unless you are saying that the BFO MP0 defines OXD 0m66, rather than BFO MP0 being defined by being 66ch from the former OXD MP0.
If BFO MP0 was the only MP0 applicable to EWR, I'd expect the mileages to increase from 0 both sides, rather than one side start at 0.66.

 

[12LDA28C]

The OXD milepost 0 is located at the former junction on the WCML immediately south of Bletchley where the at-level connection was made on the fast line/down side with the north facing curve. Although the track no longer exists for this curve, it is this milepost that distances for Winslow, Calydon, Bicester etc are measured from - unless you are saying that the BFO MP0 defines OXD 0m66, rather than BFO MP0 being defined by being 66ch from the former OXD MP0.
If BFO MP0 was the only MP0 applicable to EWR, I'd expect the mileages to increase from 0 both sides, rather than one side start at 0.66.

According to the NR 'yellow peril' the mileages West of the former Flyover Junction do indeed appear to be taken from the 'other' (historical) MP0 that you referenced which is interesting, taking into account there's a zero MP located on the route itself. Winslow station for example is located at approximately 7 1/2 Milepost.

In what year was the former direct level connection to the Fast line which forms MP0 last in use?

 

[Sun Chariot]

In what year was the former direct level connection to the Fast line which forms MP0 last in use?

Is that the old flat junction? I remember (1980s) the bridge's stone abutment walls still existed, on either side of the road which dives under both the WCML and former flyover just to the south of Bletchley main line station.

 

[zwk500]

In what year was the former direct level connection to the Fast line which forms MP0 last in use?

On the National Library of Scotland Maps page, they have a large-scale map apparently surveyed in 1969 showing the line still extant.

Given the Flyover was not able to access either Bletchley's platforms or the carriage sidings/Depot, I'd hazard a guess that the level connection was retained for passenger services, but not sure how long it lasted after they were withdrawn in 1968. We may need a member of the Signalling Record Society to assist with the date for removal of the fast line junction.

 

[CR165022]

More Chiltern test runs this week, yesterday's were cancelled but appear to be running today with 165026 allocated.

 

[Sun Chariot]

More Chiltern test runs this week, yesterday's were cancelled but appear to be running today with 165026 allocated.

Good spot, yes - possibly driver training.
165026 used on Tuesday 26-Nov paths.
165011 used for the rest of the week.

(Edit 5-Dec)
165022 used on Monday 2-Dec paths.
165025 used for the rest of the week.

 

[CR165022]

Given that no 196s have moved yet, and 165s are doing the current test runs, is it safe to say that the WTT test paths that start in a few weeks will be run by 165s as well for the time being?

 

[DavidGrain]

Given that no 196s have moved yet, and 165s are doing the current test runs, is it safe to say that the WTT test paths that start in a few weeks will be run by 165s as well for the time being?

I think it would be safer to say that these are available paths that will run as required.
This is effectively the 'ghost' timetable for when the public service starts and you will see in the early days that many of the paths are not used.
Remember that from Oxford to Bicester Village and from Bletchley to MKC, the trains will be running on a live railway so it makes sense for them to be programmed into the timetable rather than having to set up new paths each time a train is required to run.