East West Rail - possible future service patterns?

[Bletchleyite]

There's been a bit of a digression on one of the EWR non-speculative threads so I thought I would set this up to contain it.

Obviously the proposed service plan is the self-contained 2 Oxford-MKC and 1 Oxford-Bedford (subject to work on the Marston Vale). Plus possibly at some point 1 Aylesbury-MKC.

But what else might be feasible? One suggestion would be extending GWR's Oxford-Bristol back to MKC to relieve XC?

Similarly, what diversions might be viable? Could XC for instance divert, on occasions, via MKC and Oxford?

 

[Robin Edwards]

What about new routes for unit drags to-from Wolverton? Any thoughts?

 

[Manutd1999]

Extending the 2ph MKC-Oxford trains to Swindon, with 1ph then continuing further to Bristol in place of the GWR service, would be ideal in terms of connections. Pathing along the mainline would be difficult though

 

[FlyingPotato]

I would enjoy it if one of the Milton Keynes to Oxford trains was extended towards Reading.

I feel like for me at least it would become an alternative to XC for journeys north as I would change to AWC trains. I think some others might do the same if it was properly advertised with a good connection time.

As well it would mean that the two large outside London employment hubs were connected

 

[HST43257]

I’d absolutely like to see services to Reading and Bristol. It was a pleasant surprise to see that Reading to Milton Keynes on a direct train via Oxford would still be decently quicker than a car, and much quicker at busy times. Milton Keynes not being on the EWR route itself is an irritating situation, as it basically means the service has to be split between MKC and Bedford/Cambridge. If you have hourly services from each of Bristol and Reading, they either only run to MKC or Cambridge, or if they’re split there’s an uneven frequency to each I’d imagine (eg 90/30 splits to Cambridge rather than 60/60). One option would be to run everything towards Cambridge with LNWR services connecting in at Bletchley for MKC, but how much would the people of Bristol, Swindon and Reading entertain this before jumping in their cars? Especially when the times of trains from Bletchley to MKC are 7 and 23 mins apart, though the EWR services pathed in from December cover this gap nicely admittedly.

There’s other questions as well.

Does everything stop at Oxford Parkway, Winslow and Cambourne?
Should there be a MKC to Cambridge service or rely on connections at Bletchley?
What about local Marston Vale stations? What about Wixams?
Future links onto the mainlines WCML/MML/ECML?

 

[Mgameing123]

I’d absolutely like to see services to Reading and Bristol. It was a pleasant surprise to see that Reading to Milton Keynes on a direct train via Oxford would still be decently quicker than a car, and much quicker at busy times. Milton Keynes not being on the EWR route itself is an irritating situation, as it basically means the service has to be split between MKC and Bedford/Cambridge. If you have hourly services from each of Bristol and Reading, they either only run to MKC or Cambridge, or if they’re split there’s an uneven frequency to each I’d imagine (eg 90/30 splits to Cambridge rather than 60/60). One option would be to run everything towards Cambridge with LNWR services connecting in at Bletchley for MKC, but how much would the people of Bristol, Swindon and Reading entertain this before jumping in their cars? Especially when the times of trains from Bletchley to MKC are 7 and 23 mins apart!

They could run a Bletchley - MKC shuttle? But yeah Milton Keynes simply wasn’t a thing back when Varsity Line was a thing and the current sections being reopened is basically the former Varsity Line section between Bedford and Oxford.

 

[cle]

If there are going to be 4tph max Oxford-Bletchley, that's what we have to work with.

The basic assumption was 2tph MKC for opening, and then 2tph to Bedford which might one day go to Cambridge. Marston would have its stopper still.

My suggestion was to have 1tph Oxford-MKC and 1tph Bedford-MKC, those at even intervals and calls - and then 1tph Bristol-MKC in an alt pattern only calling Bicester between Oxford and MKC.

Would Winslow having only 1tph to MKC be an issue? I think not, because tons more from Bletchley, and many will be heading to London from there instead.

Reading would be ideal, although supposedly full - taking on the Didcot stopper has been suggested too. Although eventually that should be reconnected to London when wired.

One day Cowley might feature too, it's certainly somewhere else to 'send' a train from Oxford, if it happens. Tons of options in future.

North, I think Northampton could be an option, as could a Corby frequency (once Leicester wired) - again, tons to consider.

Further on MML and indeed WCML also up for debate!

 

[FlyingPotato]

A useful train could be Milton Keynes to Guildford via Reading as it connects major population centers. And connects 3 major employment locations (Milton Keynes, Reading, And the Blackwater Valley)
Many companies have have either HQs regional HQs, or general offices / production sites on this route. And plus connects major Railway junctions

I know it would be difficult to path, but an hourly stopping or semi fast service could be very well used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2024 ==

Further on MML and indeed WCML also up for debate!

I saw someone mention an idea for a reading to Nottingham train on another thread, which provided south MML stations with trains to Leicester and Nottingham which they don't currently have. And also for places like Reading, Oxford and Bletchley

 

[DavidGrain]

One day Cowley might feature too, it's certainly somewhere else to 'send' a train from Oxford, if it happens.

There is a local push to reopen Oxford to Cowley and the suggestion has been that it would be a Chiltern service using the EWR trains.

 

[The Planner]

Extending the 2ph MKC-Oxford trains to Swindon, with 1ph then continuing further to Bristol in place of the GWR service, would be ideal in terms of connections. Pathing along the mainline would be difficult though

Pathing it at Oxford North will be harder.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2024 ==

If there are going to be 4tph max Oxford-Bletchley, that's what we have to work with.

The basic assumption was 2tph MKC for opening, and then 2tph to Bedford which might one day go to Cambridge. Marston would have its stopper still.

My suggestion was to have 1tph Oxford-MKC and 1tph Bedford-MKC, those at even intervals and calls - and then 1tph Bristol-MKC in an alt pattern only calling Bicester between Oxford and MKC.

Would Winslow having only 1tph to MKC be an issue? I think not, because tons more from Bletchley, and many will be heading to London from there instead.

Reading would be ideal, although supposedly full - taking on the Didcot stopper has been suggested too. Although eventually that should be reconnected to London when wired.

One day Cowley might feature too, it's certainly somewhere else to 'send' a train from Oxford, if it happens. Tons of options in future.

North, I think Northampton could be an option, as could a Corby frequency (once Leicester wired) - again, tons to consider.

Further on MML and indeed WCML also up for debate!

Winslow will get 2tph.

 

[HST43257]

Winslow will get 2tph.

Total or just MKC services? Thinking in the future when the Bedford service comes in or beyond if Cambridge actually happens

 

[12LDA28C]

If there are going to be 4tph max Oxford-Bletchley, that's what we have to work with.

The basic assumption was 2tph MKC for opening, and then 2tph to Bedford which might one day go to Cambridge. Marston would have its stopper still.

My suggestion was to have 1tph Oxford-MKC and 1tph Bedford-MKC, those at even intervals and calls - and then 1tph Bristol-MKC in an alt pattern only calling Bicester between Oxford and MKC.

Would Winslow having only 1tph to MKC be an issue? I think not, because tons more from Bletchley, and many will be heading to London from there instead.

Reading would be ideal, although supposedly full - taking on the Didcot stopper has been suggested too. Although eventually that should be reconnected to London when wired.

One day Cowley might feature too, it's certainly somewhere else to 'send' a train from Oxford, if it happens. Tons of options in future.

North, I think Northampton could be an option, as could a Corby frequency (once Leicester wired) - again, tons to consider.

Further on MML and indeed WCML also up for debate!

I don't think there's any doubt the Cowley branch will feature. It's already being planned for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2024 ==

There is a local push to reopen Oxford to Cowley and the suggestion has been that it would be a Chiltern service using the EWR trains.

See above.

 

[A S Leib]

and then 2tph to Bedford which might one day go to Cambridge

Weren't there plans / proposals for hourly Ipswich and Norwich services past Cambridge? I don't know if the latter's possible without sorting out Ely though.

 

[mwmbwls]

In part much of the final service pattern is predicated on the rebuilding of Oxford Station, is it not?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There is a local push to reopen Oxford to Cowley and the suggestion has been that it would be a Chiltern service using the EWR trains.

There have been three potential services suggested for Cowley: extending EWR, extending the Marylebones, or a new shuttle from Hanborough (but that would require redoubling Wolvercote–Hanborough and a new platform there).

 

[Magdalia]

Weren't there plans / proposals for hourly Ipswich and Norwich services past Cambridge? I don't know if the latter's possible without sorting out Ely though.

The right word is probably aspirations.

At Cambridge there is a big difference between terminating in the south end bays and finding paths through the station and out the other end.

 

[mwmbwls]

Weren't there plans / proposals for hourly Ipswich and Norwich services past Cambridge? I don't know if the latter's possible without sorting out Ely though.

Network Rail's proposals for Ely are detailed in this Network Rail announcement.

Ely area capacity enhancement - Network Rail

The Ely area capacity enhancement (EACE) programme is a proposal to upgrade the railway to allow more trains to run through Ely.

www.networkrail.co.uk

In 2018, a £9.3 million funding package was provided to Network Rail by the Cambridgeshire & Peterborough Combined Authority, New Anglia Local Enterprise Partnership and the Strategic Freight Network to understand the scale of the challenge to increase capacity through Ely. The funding enabled us to develop the Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) to the Department for Transport (DfT) early 2020 to apply for the next stage of funding.

Following submission of the SOBC, Network Rail secured £13.1m funding from the DfT in autumn 2020 to develop design options and hold public consultations on those options. The funding also allowed for development of the Outline Business Case (OBC) to progress to the next stage of design.

The OBC was submitted to the DfT at the end of March 2022 to seek the funding for the next stage of the design process. Future funding decisions on the EACE programme will be made by the Department for Transport following the Rail Networks Enhancements Pipeline (RNEP).

Subject to successfully securing funding for the next phase of design, a Round 3 consultation would be planned followed by submission of a Transport and Works Act Order to seek powers to acquire land, and rights over land as well as powers to construct, operate and maintain the associated railway infrastructure.

Can anybody confirm the current status? IIRC there are proposals to improve the line from Ipswich to Cambridge as part of the works to improve links to Felixstowe.

 

[bspahh]

Can anybody confirm the current status?

Lots of people think its a good idea, such as the East of England All-Party Parliamentary Group last month and a Labour Shadow Minister for Rail in Februrary.

If the budget unlocks money for investment, perhaps it will happen sooner rather than later.

 

[RT4038]

Network Rail's proposals for Ely are detailed in this Network Rail announcement.

Ely area capacity enhancement - Network Rail

The Ely area capacity enhancement (EACE) programme is a proposal to upgrade the railway to allow more trains to run through Ely.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Can anybody confirm the current status? IIRC there are proposals to improve the line from Ipswich to Cambridge as part of the works to improve links to Felixstowe.

The line from Cambridge to Newmarket does not seem to be involved in either of these documents.

 

[Nicholas43]

I don't think there's any doubt the Cowley branch will feature. It's already being planned for.

The Cowley branch awaits a business case, and credible costed plans to upgrade the track & signalling, & build new stations, while keeping the car trains running 50 (?) weeks a year.
Let's keep our eyes on 2 tph Oxford<>Milton Keynes, using platforms 1 or 2 at Oxford, and possibly trading under the ridiculous brand name East West Rail.
Modernizing Bletchley to Bedford awaits a credible costed plan.
The Tempsford New Town Crazy Great Way Round to Cambridge Railway awaits any idea of who will pay for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

possibly trading under the ridiculous brand name East West Rail.

I'd expect it to be under the Chiltern Railways brand, there's really no reason to do otherwise. Though the units themselves will probably be orange and purple because why waste money repainting them?

 

[DavidGrain]

I'd expect it to be under the Chiltern Railways brand, there's really no reason to do otherwise. Though the units themselves will probably be orange and purple because why waste money repainting them?

I expect we shall see decals covering the West Midlands Railways name and logo.
My guess is that the 196s will be used until Chiltern eventually start getting new trains whenever that will be. Perhaps under Great British Railways we shall see the 196/197 become the new national standard DMU in 2/3/4 car configurations for commuter and longer distance versions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

From information gathered on the WMR-Class 196 thread.
The trains expected to operate on the EWR are 196007-196012.
196007 has not seen service since August.
196009 has not seen service for several months and was recently moved to Long Marston.
196010 has not seen service for several months.
These three trains are described as 'off lease' whatever that might mean.
The other trains are in service in the West Midlands.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I’d absolutely like to see services to Reading and Bristol.

A useful train could be Milton Keynes to Guildford via Reading as it connects major population centers.

Agree that many "via Winslow" journey times look pretty good compared to both cars and existing services. Bristol - MKC or Reading to MKC direct services could both have journey times reduced by about 30 minutes compared to current rail routes. Guildford seems more of a stretch, don't think there's much journey time benefit than via London.

However, I'm wary of stitching together lots of services to enable through journeys that in reality very few people use end-end, and neither Winslow nor Bletchley HL have long platforms.
So I think the focus needs to be ensuring changes of train work well at Oxford, and aren't also required at Didcot/Swindon/Reading/Bletchley etc, and then making sure Oxford has the right facilities to provide a good passenger experience.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'd expect it to be under the Chiltern Railways brand, there's really no reason to do otherwise. Though the units themselves will probably be orange and purple because why waste money repainting them?

Rather more likely to be vinyled than repainted. Pretty sure they won't be running in service in orange and purple.

 

[Starmill]

Network Rail's proposals for Ely are detailed in this Network Rail announcement.

Ely area capacity enhancement - Network Rail

The Ely area capacity enhancement (EACE) programme is a proposal to upgrade the railway to allow more trains to run through Ely.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Can anybody confirm the current status? IIRC there are proposals to improve the line from Ipswich to Cambridge as part of the works to improve links to Felixstowe.

The Telegraph reported this week that a funding settlement for the Ely upgrade will be included in the Budget. However that capacity will probably all be used up by freight services. You may be able to have an Oxford - Norwich service several times a day, on weekends only, by 2040

 

[eastdyke]

The Telegraph reported this week that a funding settlement for the Ely upgrade will be included in the Budget. However that capacity will probably all be used up by freight services. You may be able to have an Oxford - Norwich service several times a day, on weekends only, by 2040

Funds to progress designs, not 'shovels in the ground'.
'The Country' needs first to decide not only what it wants its Railways to achieve and also what it is prepared to pay.
[Possibly] respectively everything and not a lot!
It may only be the latter in the Budget.

As to passenger services, for anything at all east of Cambridge from EWR the risks to performance are huge.

 

[Starmill]

Funds to progress designs, not 'shovels in the ground'.
'The Country' needs first to decide not only what it wants its Railways to achieve and also what it is prepared to pay.
[Possibly] respectively everything and not a lot!
It may only be the latter in the Budget.

As to passenger services, for anything at all east of Cambridge from EWR the risks to performance are huge.

A full business case is always supposed to be required before you can commit half a billion pounds of public money to something (anything, not just a railway enhancement). One of the components of that is (time-limited, but binding) quotes from contractors on which to base costs. The contractors won't enter into these quotes out until design has reached a suitable stage.

 

[Nottingham59]

At Cambridge there is a big difference between terminating in the south end bays and finding paths through the station and out the other end.

Cambridge needs a four-track railway all the way through the centre.

That investment would provide much greater boost to the economic growth of the Greater Cambridge area, and the whole of the UK, than building a six-track railway through the centre of Bedford.

 

[Magdalia]

Cambridge needs a four-track railway all the way through the centre.

Until the 1970s it was 4 tracks from Trumpington to Coldham Lane Junction. The up goods frpm Cambridge went when Trumpington box closed, Cambridge station to Coldham Lane Junction went down to 2 tracks in the early 1980s resignalling.

The first consultation on Cambridge South station included 4 tracks from Shepreth Branch Junction to Cambridge but it was descoped. The main difficulty is replacing Long Road bridge. If East West Rail on the southern approach happens then that will deliver 4 tracks from Shepreth Branch Junction to Cambridge.

From the north end of the main Cambridge station to Coldham Lane Junction the old goods roads made space for the carriage sidings.

Four tracks from Coldham Lane through to Cambridge North won't happen because it would need a new bridge over the river and there is no room to replace Fen Road level crossing with a bridge.

That investment would provide much greater boost to the economic growth of the Greater Cambridge area, and the whole of the UK, than building a six-track railway through the centre of Bedford.

If it delivered a high frequency all stations service through the Cambridge Core then yes you are right. The railway should be the spine of the Cambridge transport network.

 

[A0]

A useful train could be Milton Keynes to Guildford via Reading as it connects major population centers. And connects 3 major employment locations (Milton Keynes, Reading, And the Blackwater Valley)
Many companies have have either HQs regional HQs, or general offices / production sites on this route. And plus connects major Railway junctions

The number of people wanting to travel between Milton Keynes and Reading is small, not infinitesimally so, but small never the less. MK to Guildford though is absolutely infinitesimally small. And would almost certainly be quicker via London.

Extending EWR services from Oxford onto Swindon, Bristol or even Reading is a recipe for disaster - it will kill the reliability. The MK - Oxford service needs to be kept as self contained as possible to stop it becoming beholden to delays from miles away. The only possible extension (though I suspect pathing and timing will make it unviable) would be to Northampton where you could easily reverse the service.

Same goes for the Cambridge leg when / if that ever happens. Extending onto Ipswich, Norwich or anywhere else further east is going to be asking for trouble.

On Cowley - I thought extending the Chiltern services from Marylebone was originally proposed as the way to serve that ?