Eastern Scottish - historic fleet discussion

[GCH100]

The situation with New Street's closure was a complex issue in that with privatisation it was realised that New Street Depot would be of a high value for redevelopment and so it was retained by the Scottish Government and not included in the sale to the Management Buy Out to avoid them making lots of money out of a sale. It was leased to Eastern Scottish initially, but obviously the high leasing costs and shrinking fleet size caused them to close it within a few years, and it was sold for redevelopment after being used as an NCP car park for a number of years, also presumably on lease.

When New Street closed, buses were split in the main between surrounding garages such as Musselburgh and Dalkeith, and Westfield was opened initially as a minibus base for Edinburgh City Services, but did eventually get full size buses allocated. It was an ex SMT Motors (Car dealer) premises if I am not mistaken from what I have read.

 

[Devon Sunset]

Bumping this thread up with a few queries regarding Eastern's DAB Lions, Ailsas and B10M Citybuses: what depots were they initially allocated to and what routes were you guaranteed to see them on from new?

From memory the Ailsas were initially allocated to New Street but owing to them being full height and not able to use the entrance ramp were quickly sent to Musselburgh where they were mainly used on 129 & 130. The Citybuses were allocated to Dalkeith and used on the Mayfield/Rosewell/Birkenside services. The Lions again went to New Street (possibly for the 500) but ended up split between Musselburgh & Livingston again because of height issues. Happy to be corrected on the above as I was a lot younger then.

 

[Strathclyder]

Typically at Musselburgh, usually on the 128/129.

From memory the Ailsas were initially allocated to New Street but owing to them being full height and not able to use the entrance ramp were quickly sent to Musselburgh where they were mainly used on 129 & 130. The Citybuses were allocated to Dalkeith and used on the Mayfield/Rosewell/Birkenside services. The Lions again went to New Street (possibly for the 500) but ended up split between Musselburgh & Livingston again because of height issues. Happy to be corrected on the above as I was a lot younger then.

Cheers for the replies gents. I seem to remember a few Eastern Lions (the 3 D-ESC reg examples delivered in June 1987) were liveried up for Citylink work, and a quick Flickr search confirms this (linked image copyright of Flickr's Richard Simmons), for the 500/501 as you say.

CLL186. D186 ESC: Eastern Scottish

Eastern Scottish CLL186 is loading in St Andrews Square bus station, Edinburgh, on service 501 to Ayr. Painted in Citylink livery, it is an underfloor-engined Leyland Lion LDTL11/1R with Alexander RH bodywork, fitted with semi-coach seats and new in 1987.

www.flickr.com

 

[DunsBus]

The situation with New Street's closure was a complex issue in that with privatisation it was realised that New Street Depot would be of a high value for redevelopment and so it was retained by the Scottish Government and not included in the sale to the Management Buy Out to avoid them making lots of money out of a sale. It was leased to Eastern Scottish initially, but obviously the high leasing costs and shrinking fleet size caused them to close it within a few years, and it was sold for redevelopment after being used as an NCP car park for a number of years, also presumably on lease.

I remember there was something similar regarding Lowland's Berwick depot when it was privatised. Lowland then leased it for a few years before relocating.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I remember there was something similar regarding Lowland's Berwick depot when it was privatised. Lowland then leased it for a few years before relocating.

I don't know about Berwick but given that the site was shared and included the bus station, might it have been that Northumbria assumed full ownership with a lease to Lowland?

From memory the Ailsas were initially allocated to New Street but owing to them being full height and not able to use the entrance ramp were quickly sent to Musselburgh where they were mainly used on 129 & 130. The Citybuses were allocated to Dalkeith and used on the Mayfield/Rosewell/Birkenside services. The Lions again went to New Street (possibly for the 500) but ended up split between Musselburgh & Livingston again because of height issues. Happy to be corrected on the above as I was a lot younger then.

There were two main batches of Ailsas?

The first batch in 1977/8 went to Muss for the Seton Sands routes. The X reg ones with the R type bodies were split between Muss and Dalkeith. The Citybuses to Dalkeith - relatives lived in Bonnyrigg so remember the Dalkeith ones well

 

[Devon Sunset]

There were two main batches of Ailsas?

The first batch in 1977/8 went to Muss for the Seton Sands routes. The X reg ones with the R type bodies were split between Muss and Dalkeith. The Citybuses to Dalkeith - relatives lived in Bonnyrigg so remember the Dalkeith ones well

There were 3 batches, the 3rd batch were B reg VV149-158. The first Citybuses arrived around the same time.

 

[Auld reekie]

Where was the Westfield garage situated?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There were 3 batches, the 3rd batch were B reg VV149-158. The first Citybuses arrived around the same time.

Ah yes.... now you say that, I so remember now that there was Ailsas and Citybuses arriving almost simultaneously in the reg series.

Where was the Westfield garage situated?

Westfield Avenue - think these flats are on the site https://www.google.com/maps/@55.938...pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I only popped in once must've been 1999.

 

[Auld reekie]

Ah yes.... now you say that, I so remember now that there was Ailsas and Citybuses arriving almost simultaneously in the reg series.


Westfield Avenue - think these flats are on the site https://www.google.com/maps/@55.938707,-3.2435525,3a,75y,269.26h,97.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJzfwqXivrkbyzaHaqxHSpA!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=JzfwqXivrkbyzaHaqxHSpA&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&w=203&h=100&yaw=84.70894&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I only popped in once must've been 1999.

Thanks for that.
I vaguely remember that one.

 

[busesrusuk]

I only managed a pic of one Eastern Scottish Ailsa in service and that was in First days. I assume that this bus was one of the last batch - can somebody tell me what the Wd is in the front? Assume its a garage code but what garage and where was that garage?

First Edinburgh 1053 Jan 00

Princes Street, Edinburgh. Jan 2000

www.flickr.com

 

[GusB]

I only managed a pic of one Eastern Scottish Ailsa in service an that was in First days. I assume that this bus was one of the last batch - can somebody tell me what the Wd is in the front? Assume its a garage code but what garage and where was that garage?

First Edinburgh 1053 Jan 00

Princes Street, Edinburgh. Jan 2000

www.flickr.com

Wd would be Westfield, as mentioned above.

That was the livery that I remember from the short period of time that I lived in Edinburgh, but I don't ever recall seeing one that looked so clean!

 

[Christmas]

I see that a lovely set of Eastern Scottish or SMT Lothian timetables have appeared on a well known auction site. They feature what looks like either a representation of an Ailsa or a Volvo Citybus. I forgot they had a slogan... "Go On Green".

 

[DunsBus]

I see that a lovely set of Eastern Scottish or SMT Lothian timetables have appeared on a well known auction site. They feature what looks like either a representation of an Ailsa or a Volvo Citybus. I forgot they had a slogan... "Go On Green".

It was of a Lion - ZLL177 (C177VSF), to be precise, the one which is in preservation.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I see that a lovely set of Eastern Scottish or SMT Lothian timetables have appeared on a well known auction site. They feature what looks like either a representation of an Ailsa or a Volvo Citybus. I forgot they had a slogan... "Go On Green".

"Go On Green" from the mid-1980s was quite a memorable one for me. I saw it every day on my City-Go-Round bus pass too. I wonder if it will be adopted in future by either of the new kid Green Teams in the West Lothian area.
Another slogan painted on vehicles around the time of metrification, advent of parking meters and odometers in the early 1970s that I quite liked was "Take This Bus - Save on Meters and Miles". Not sure if this was unique to Eastern Scottish operations or used more universally.

 

[DunsBus]

I don't know about Berwick but given that the site was shared and included the bus station, might it have been that Northumbria assumed full ownership with a lease to Lowland?

This may have been the case later on as my understanding is that when Lowland was privatised, Berwick depot and its share of the bus station initially remsined with the Scottish Transport Group. There was a truce called between Lowland and Northumbria in late-1994 (taking effect from early February the following year) and it was around that same time when Lowland relocated its Berwick allocation to the MOT testing station in Tweedmouth industrial estate, together with the opening of the Berwick Bus Shop.

 

[Christmas]

Looking at that Ebay listing, it looks like SMT Eastern Scottish was running 134 separate services back in 1993! (I counted the number of timetables listed) Obviously the split First carried out drastically reduced the size of the former SMT but do any members know exactly how many separate services that the current Eastern Scottish actually run? I bet it's not 134!

 

[DunsBus]

Looking at that Ebay listing, it looks like SMT Eastern Scottish was running 134 separate services back in 1993! (I counted the number of timetables listed) Obviously the split First carried out drastically reduced the size of the former SMT but do any members know exactly how many separate services that the current Eastern Scottish actually run? I bet it's not 134!

Don't forget the reduction carried out pre-split when four of the seven City Sprinter services were removed following the deal - sorry, agreement - with LRT. This saw a sizeable number of Dodge/Renault minibuses rendered surplus overnight.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Don't forget the reduction carried out pre-split when four of the seven City Sprinter services were removed following the deal - sorry, agreement - with LRT. This saw a sizeable number of Dodge/Renault minibuses rendered surplus overnight.

Many of these minibuses must have been the best part of 10 years old at the time with quite intensive urban service behind them so I imagine they weren't worth keeping on the road anyway. Were many of them sold on? The way the market was going at that time it seemed smaller capacity buses were in less demand than during the deregulation boom.

 

[GCH100]

Many of these minibuses must have been the best part of 10 years old at the time with quite intensive urban service behind them so I imagine they weren't worth keeping on the road anyway. Were many of them sold on? The way the market was going at that time it seemed smaller capacity buses were in less demand than during the deregulation boom.

Wasn't there a second batch though MR471-479/81-499/501-502 H471-479/81-99/501/2OSC Renault S75/Reeve Burgess and Optare Metroriders MO503-12 J503-512WSX and MO513-517 K513-517BSX many of these were transferred away/withdrawn when quite young? Also looked at as a competitive tool in 1989 were AEC Routemaster 5RM/Park Royal C53/5 WLT794/815 from Western/Clydeside, these proved to be unsuccessful and were returned, maybe the higher costs of having to employ a crew of conductors ruled them out? (Source PM16 - Fleet History of Eastern Scottish Omnibuses Ltd - PSV CIRCLE c1996).

 

[Siemens Trains]

Wasn't there a second batch though MR471-479/81-499/501-502 H471-479/81-99/501/2OSC Renault S75/Reeve Burgess and Optare Metroriders MO503-12 J503-512WSX and MO513-517 K513-517BSX many of these were transferred away/withdrawn when quite young? Also looked at as a competitive tool in 1989 were AEC Routemaster 5RM/Park Royal C53/5 WLT794/815 from Western/Clydeside, these proved to be unsuccessful and were returned, maybe the higher costs of having to employ a crew of conductors ruled them out? (Source PM16 - Fleet History of Eastern Scottish Omnibuses Ltd - PSV CIRCLE c1996).

I do seem to remember some new City Sprinters hitting the streets in the early 1990s so that might tie in - these may have had some life left in them following service with Eastern.
However I thought Western/Clydeside Routemasters were only used for a brief period around 1986 or 1987. To be effective I feel conductors need to be used on all vehicles working a busy route (or on a set of routes with shared stops), otherwise it's just a publicity stunt rather like London's heritage fleet. Unless desperate for vehicles due to late deliveries I'd be a little surprised if Eastern were still trying 'pop-up' conductors by 1989 but you'll know better than me if you have a book on the subject.

 

[DunsBus]

I do seem to remember some new City Sprinters hitting the streets in the early 1990s so that might tie in - these may have had some life left in them following service with Eastern.
However I thought Western/Clydeside Routemasters were only used for a brief period around 1986 or 1987. To be effective I feel conductors need to be used on all vehicles working a busy route (or on a set of routes with shared stops), otherwise it's just a publicity stunt rather like London's heritage fleet. Unless desperate for vehicles due to late deliveries I'd be a little surprised if Eastern were still trying 'pop-up' conductors by 1989 but you'll know better than me if you have a book on the subject.

I believe Eastern was seriously considering buying 40 Routemasters from Western/Clydeside following the trials in September 1989 with WLT794/835. In the end it decided to go for buying new midibuses instead, a wise move given that provincial Routemaster operation was being scaled back around that time as operators faced up to the costs of both running them and crewing them. (Unless of course you happened to be Stagecoach, where you could simply transfer a runner from elsewhere to replace a scrapper.)

These midis were the MR471-502 batch of Renault S75/Reebur Beavers, which saw off the last of the ex-SYPTE Ailsas and allowed the conversion of the entire Edinburgh city network to City Sprinter operation.

in all, 100 City Sprinters were purchased - 70 minibuses and 30 midis.

MR401-430 D401-430ASF Dodge S56/Alexander AM B21F 1986

MR431-464 E431-464JSG Renault S56/Alexander AM B25F 1987

ZMR466-470 E465-470JSG Renault S56/Alexander AM DP25F 1987

MR471-502 H471-502OSC* Renault S75/Reeve Burgess Beaver B31F 1991
* - no MR480 or MR500 due to the matching registrations being unavailable.

From memory all of the first batch of Dodges, bar one fitted with a tail lift, came off when the City Sprinter network was reduced at the end of 1994. The subsequent batches were also impacted, but less severely.