Eccles/Weaste freight spur

[bitmadmax]

Does anyone know how trains coming out of the Weaste freight spur get back onto the line in the Liverpool direction? Looking on google earth, I could not see a crossover for trains coming out of the spur - unless they are "wrong roaded" for a distance??

 

[Bevan Price]

Does anyone know how trains coming out of the Weaste freight spur get back onto the line in the Liverpool direction? Looking on google earth, I could not see a crossover for trains coming out of the spur - unless they are "wrong roaded" for a distance??

Does anything use the loop in that direction ?.

Since the suspension of cement traffic down the Weaste branch, I have only heard of the loop being used for eastbound freights. Westbound trains would need to reverse over the crossover near Eccles signalbox before they could proceed towards Liverpool.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Does anyone know how trains coming out of the Weaste freight spur get back onto the line in the Liverpool direction? Looking on google earth, I could not see a crossover for trains coming out of the spur - unless they are "wrong roaded" for a distance??

Was it ever intended or expected that trains would need to depart westbound? With the Weaste branch having been reactivated for a single flow of cement traffic from the east it would have significantly added to the cost to provide and signal an extra crossover.

 

[snowball]

The Quail/Trackmaps map shows no trailing crossover until Astley, five miles west.

 

[driver9000]

The Quail/Trackmaps map shows no trailing crossover until Astley, five miles west.

Trains wouldn't get that far anyway. There is a limit of shunt just on the Patricroft end of the loop and the crossover at Astley is unsignalled. There is only enough room to fit a loco between the LOS and the shunt signal on the main at Patricroft to run round the train at Eccles.

 

[montyburns56]

I believe that years ago often the trains would be reversed from the terminal back up to the mainline, which always seemed slightly dangerous considering how steep the branch was!

 

[Ships]

Is the branch used at all currently?

 

[bitmadmax]

So is it the case that freight exiting the branch would have to go upto the LoS at Patricroft, travel to Eccles (not far I know) and then come back over a crossover to get onto the Liverpool track? Seems a bit of a faff

 

[driver9000]

So is it the case that freight exiting the branch would have to go upto the LoS at Patricroft, travel to Eccles (not far I know) and then come back over a crossover to get onto the Liverpool track? Seems a bit of a faff

I don't think trains ever did go to/from Liverpool from Weaste. I think it was a GMC place and I don't think trains would come up into the loop from Weaste to propel back onto the Down Chat Moss. The loop is set up for a loco to run round a train using the Up Chat Moss and there is no LOS on the Down.

 

[bitmadmax]

I don't think trains ever did go to/from Liverpool from Weaste. I think it was a GMC place and I don't think trains would come up into the loop from Weaste to propel back onto the Down Chat Moss. The loop is set up for a loco to run round a train using the Up Chat Moss and there is no LOS on the Down.

I'm not quite sure I understand this but the spur is a dead end, there is only one way in/out at Eccles. Whatever's coming out has to go somewhere, and looking at google maps and satellite the only way in/out appears to be the diverging track on the Manchester side.

What happens exactly when a train comes out of the freight spur? There was mention of the crossover at Eccles signal box, but this is further down the track toward Manchester.

If the spur is not in use at all (is it?) then I guess that would be a reason. Last time I noticed the track on the way in looked fairly used, albeit rusty, but this was a few months ago

 

[furnessvale]

If the spur is not in use at all (is it?) then I guess that would be a reason. Last time I noticed the track on the way in looked fairly used, albeit rusty, but this was a few months ago

IIRC the last traffic was cement from Hope for export but it hasn't run for a year or two.

I think it is very dependent on what export contracts Hope can win, but cheap Greek cement knocked a big hole in that market.

 

[driver9000]

I'm not quite sure I understand this but the spur is a dead end, there is only one way in/out at Eccles. Whatever's coming out has to go somewhere, and looking at google maps and satellite the only way in/out appears to be the diverging track on the Manchester side.

What happens exactly when a train comes out of the freight spur? There was mention of the crossover at Eccles signal box, but this is further down the track toward Manchester.

If the spur is not in use at all (is it?) then I guess that would be a reason. Last time I noticed the track on the way in looked fairly used, albeit rusty, but this was a few months ago

The Weaste line is accessed via the Up Goods loop behind Eccles station. This can be accessed from the Liverpool end via the signal on the end of Patricroft station but a train leaving the Weaste line cannot depart towards Liverpool from that end of the loop. The Patricroft end of the Up Goods loop is protected by a fixed red signal with position light underneath. This only allows trains up to the LOS to drop behind a ground signal to enable the locomotive to run round a train (there is another ground signal to shunt back into the loop at the signalbox end of the loop). Between the LOS and ground signal there is only room for a locomotive. For a train coming from Manchester it would cross into the loop from the crossover at Eccles signal box, the locomotive would run round as described above and go down the branch. Trains coming out of Weaste would only be able to depart towards Manchester after the locomotive has run round its train using the signalling I already described and as far as I know they didn't go toward Liverpool from Weaste as this would have involved being propelled across the mainline behind a main aspect signal (which also involves heading back into Piccadilly PSB territory) for which there is no LOS on the Down (Liverpool direction) line.

The Up Goods sees fairly regular by engineers trains and the odd ECS move but the Weaste branch hasn't been used for some years.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

trains to weaste jnc at present no traffic although recently ships one per month since the start of 2015 have been coming to weaste up ship canal, mv HELKA unloaded cement this weekend.Up freight trains from lpool direction do use the loop for regulation ie out of way for express's.the odd enginnering/ballast trains do arrive from M/c direction and run round and go back toward M/c even a steam train a year or two ago on a sunday evening came ecs from M/c vic to run round and went back to Bury (elr).Regarding trains from M/c direction going into loop and then going forward towards Astley that is not possible (it would involve wrong direction working over the UP Chat Moss line to Astley) its not signalled for such a move.So another move that may seem possible is to reverse out of loop onto Down chat Moss behind the signal and proceed to Astley again its not signalled for such a move, (Reversing out of loop),in addition I don't think the signaller at Eccles box has control of the signals in rear because they are operated automaticly, therefore should such a move be done the possibility of a train approaching the signal without his knowledge exist.Re ships unloading at weaste it seems unlikely that they will load into rail traffic again because the unloading pipe runs about 6inch above the rail line. its difficult to explain hopefully I've made it clear to all

 

[bitmadmax]

Thanks chaps, that makes sense. It's nice that there has been some freight activity recently, promising for its future use I hope.

 

[Ships]

trains to weaste jnc at present no traffic although recently ships one per month since the start of 2015 have been coming to weaste up ship canal, mv HELKA unloaded cement this weekend.Up freight trains from lpool direction do use the loop for regulation ie out of way for express's.the odd enginnering/ballast trains do arrive from M/c direction and run round and go back toward M/c even a steam train a year or two ago on a sunday evening came ecs from M/c vic to run round and went back to Bury (elr).Regarding trains from M/c direction going into loop and then going forward towards Astley that is not possible (it would involve wrong direction working over the UP Chat Moss line to Astley) its not signalled for such a move.So another move that may seem possible is to reverse out of loop onto Down chat Moss behind the signal and proceed to Astley again its not signalled for such a move, (Reversing out of loop),in addition I don't think the signaller at Eccles box has control of the signals in rear because they are operated automaticly, therefore should such a move be done the possibility of a train approaching the signal without his knowledge exist.Re ships unloading at weaste it seems unlikely that they will load into rail traffic again because the unloading pipe runs about 6inch above the rail line. its difficult to explain hopefully I've made it clear to all

Did they ever load into trains or was it alway export down there?

 

[Wandering pete]

Realtime trains today shows an 11.57 weaste-oxwellmains freight which also looks to have run yesterday.There is no sign of an incoming light engine or return freight working from oxwellmains to weaste ....puzzling.Years ago i worked in the offices adjacent to the branch and can fondly remember class 31's and 37's on what i think were trains of oil tanks which predated the cement traffic.

 

[driver9000]

Realtime trains today shows an 11.57 weaste-oxwellmains freight which also looks to have run yesterday.There is no sign of an incoming light engine or return freight working from oxwellmains to weaste ....puzzling.Years ago i worked in the offices adjacent to the branch and can fondly remember class 31's and 37's on what i think were trains of oil tanks which predated the cement traffic.

No inward working at the train didn't run.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Up freight trains from lpool direction do use the loop for regulation ie out of way for express's.the odd enginnering/ballast trains do arrive from M/c direction and run round and go back toward M/c even a steam train a year or two ago on a sunday evening came ecs from M/c vic to run round and went back to Bury (elr).....

Northern Bell ECS workings have used it a few times to wait time. Steam engines (on charters) have taken on water in the loop (from the bridge at Eccles), though I haven't seen it done in a while (something to do with electricity I imagine). I have also seen a 175 and, more recently, pairs of 185s in that loop too. I'm also led to believe the Royal train has stayed in the loop overnight before, though I've never seen it myself. Oh, and there was a class 40 charter that went down the branch a few years back (with the Canadian 67 on the back to avoid running round).

 

[Signalmans Eye]

cement trains from Edale earles sdgs to Weaste(Blue Circle, Lafarge from 2001 ) ran in the late 90s and finished about 4 years ago,cement was loaded into ships, at the present the opposite is happening ships are arriving to unload cement and distributed by road and not by rail.

 

[507 001]

The Loop is definitely in use. The branch isn't.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

Northern Bell ECS workings have used it a few times to wait time. Steam engines (on charters) have taken on water in the loop (from the bridge at Eccles), though I haven't seen it done in a while (something to do with electricity I imagine). I have also seen a 175 and, more recently, pairs of 185s in that loop too. I'm also led to believe the Royal train has stayed in the loop overnight before, though I've never seen it myself. Oh, and there was a class 40 charter that went down the branch a few years back (with the Canadian 67 on the back to avoid running round).

true Royal Train stabled overnight in loop,I think the watering issue for steam may have come to an end since Electrification the last steam thro watered at Ashton,some years back seem to recall First North Western Trains operated a charter using 2x101 units down to weaste
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe that years ago often the trains would be reversed from the terminal back up to the mainline, which always seemed slightly dangerous considering how steep the branch was!

Back in the day's o yore ie steam era freight trains were allowed to propel all the way down to weaste jnc from Eccles 50or even 60 loose coupled wagons loaded was a common occurrence guard would pin brakes down at his end, if need be fireman would pin brakes down.Propelling from weaste to eccles was not allowed however when the Port Clarence tank trains started to run in the 70s to weaste at that time there was no runround facility at eccles and trains were authourised to propel from weaste to eccles.

 

[class 9]

No inward working at the train didn't run.

It looks like the schedule in TRUST Weaste-Oxwellmains, was used just from York Yard Sth-Oxwellmains, this is done so a new path doesn't need to be input.

 

[D1009]

Realtime trains today shows an 11.57 weaste-oxwellmains freight.

That's an interesting one, it probably shouldn't be there. Bizarrely something running 4 hrs later north of York is shown using its path tonight.

 

[Gathursty]

I was googling the new construction next to the M60 Barton Bridge near The Trafford Centre and I found information regarding the rail link to Port Salford. This link will be a triangular junction bounded by the M62 and M60 bridges which will then head south to stop by the side of the Manchester Ship Canal, much in the same way as you'd see at Earlestown.

Now I was under the impression that the Port would use the Weaste Spur, beyond Eccles Station, to a facility there, but clearly I'm mistaken.

What will happen to the Weaste Spur when Port Salford will be built??

 

[The Planner]

Is Port Salford a goer then? I've not heard anything about the rail link for a long time. Weaste will just stay or just end up mothballed.

 

[Gathursty]

Is Port Salford a goer then? I've not heard anything about the rail link for a long time. Weaste will just stay or just end up mothballed.

It is just me presuming that if Peel have been allowed and are constructing this lift bridge and new link from the A57 to The Trafford Centre, then surely all of their plans have been accepted...?

 

[snowball]

The rail link from the L&M line to Port Salford involves a bridge over a diversion of the A57 road near the AJ Bell stadium west of the M60. The road diversion was substantially built more than 18 months ago but is not open to traffic because associated roads, including a lift bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal immediately east of the M60 crossing, were late starting construction and are still being built.

The towers of the lift bridge over the Ship Canal were completed recently. In addition to a dual carriageway I believe it will have provision to carry a possible future extension of the proposed Trafford Centre Metrolink line.

The abutments of the bridge to carry the Port Salford rail link over the diverted A57 have been in place for over 18 months, but unless there have been recent developments since I was last there, there is no sign yet of the bridge's superstructure, or of any work to build the rest of the rail link.

 

[montyburns56]

One of the clients for Port Salford wants to move there early this year, but the council won't allow them as the road and rail links aren't complete, but as snowball says Network Rail don't seem to have even started working on the rail link and that's probably going to take about six months??? to build so I can't see the port opening any time soon.

 

[snowball]

Even if they were working on the rail link, it can't be opened before traffic on the A57 is diverted, and I don't think that will be allowed before the lift bridge is operational.

 

[Greybeard33]

One of the clients for Port Salford wants to move there early this year, but the council won't allow them as the road and rail links aren't complete, but as snowball says Network Rail don't seem to have even started working on the rail link and that's probably going to take about six months??? to build so I can't see the port opening any time soon.

The planning permission for Port Salford was originally subject to conditions that the new rail and road links must be in place before any business starts to operate from the site. However, last March Salford Council agreed Peel's application to amend these conditions, allowing the site to open in 2016 without the new links. See http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/culina-group-create-280-jobs-8899409. Peel has a strong bargaining position vis-a-vis the council because of the employment and revenue the terminal will generate.

If/when the rail link is complete, Port Salford could potentially compete with the two Trafford Park intermodal terminals for the container traffic from Felixstowe, Southampton and London Gateway. The western access to the WCML, avoiding Manchester, could be an advantage. However, Peel's overarching master plan is for its new Liverpool2 container port to compete with the southern ports, which, if successful, will reduce rail container traffic from them to the North West. It seems to me that containers shipped up the Ship Canal from Liverpool2 to Port Salford are likely to be moved on by road to nearby destinations, which could not be economically served by rail. Any longer distance flows from Liverpool2 to other parts of the country are more likely to go by rail all the way, rather than incur the extra costs and delays of transshipment through Port Salford.

To my cynical mind, Peel may be in no hurry to complete the Port Salford rail link for it to be used mainly for traffic from the southern ports. Even if it does open, Freightliner, DBS and GBRf might be reluctant to use Port Salford instead of Trafford Park as the terminal for their trains from the southern ports, because of Peel's potential conflict of interest.