ECML Dec 2010 Timetable

[MCR247]

Interesting Paul. I thought it would be well used by Edin-Glas traffic, by traffic from the NE as well as the eastern counties? Obviously not!

I was on it and it was empty, considering it takes an extra half hour than the Queen St service, it would probably only be use by passengers arriving into Central and then wanting to go to EDB

 

[dk1]

The Glasgow EC trains i have used seem to have several passengers on board. However if the XC trains were extended on alternate hours it would suit passengers only as far south as York as their Anglo-Scot services tend to be via Leeds. Several passengers i have travelled on these trains with are then waiting beside me at Peterborough waiting for connections into East Anglia. Whether these are prepared to change trains again remains to be seen. When i worked in a booking office a few years back i was suprised at how many passengers travelled from the Glasgow area to Great Yarmouth. They were always keen to be booked on the 10.03 ex-Norwich as this made a good connection into the 11.46 Glasgow central at Peterborough.

 

[yorkie]

Don't think much of that.
How are you supposed to get from Stevenage to Newark, York, Darlington, Newcastle etc?

0635 gets you to Newark, York, Darlington & Newcastle.
Perhaps the 0710 ex-KGX should call at concrete town instead of Peterborough, as the 0730 calls at Peterborough anyway.

I was sceptical but I think, with one or two minor adjustments, it's actually quite good. Newark to Leeds needs a change at Doncaster but the connection is good with it being the following train 5 mins later. Grantham has direct trains to York and Leeds. xx30 and xx35 calling alternate stations before Donny is sensible too. The faster trains from Edinburgh to London are a big bonus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd like to see a connection time exemption at York that allowed transfer from NXEC to NXEC with five minutes, ....

Yes that should be done. It can be done and exists elsewhere (as I'm sure you know!) so they have no excuse. If they do the timetabling right at York, they can make it cross-platform by making the terminating train use platform 9, and the xx33 northbound and xx 55 southbound could both use platform 5.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on it and it was empty, considering it takes an extra half hour than the Queen St service, it would probably only be use by passengers arriving into Central and then wanting to go to EDB

I think the FSR service takes a bit longer than 29 minutes!

For example the 0900 from GLC got to EDB 1002 (3 late, after being 5 late at Midcalder Jn). The 0900 from GLQ got to EDB at 0950 (also 2 late).

So yes, you could get to Edinburgh 12 minutes earlier but Central is more conveniently located and it would take about 12 minutes to walk from Central to the dump that is Queen Street anyway, so it's not really faster for most people.

Looking at the other direction, the 1522 EDB-GLC departed 10 late at 1532 and got to GLC 1627. The 1630 FSR service cheated and left a minute early (so 3 mins ahead), but only got to the lesser Glasgow station 6 minutes earlier, so a saving of only 3 minutes despite going a much more direct route and being one of the faster ones that calls at Croy rather than Linlithgow/Polmont. I think passengers would rather spend 3 minutes on board a train and be taken to a more convenient (and much more pleasant!) station.

There are also many more destinations you can reach from Central than from Queen St, which is very much second best to the much grander Central station.

I think that it should be a regular hourly XC service, that would match more demand with capacity, and the only people who lose out are those going to somewhere like Peterborough - but this won't be an issue if they make the connectional allowance at York 5 mins for NXEC services and if they make it cross platform for the change. If they refuse to do this, then it doesn't work and they should re-instate the Glasgow-KGX trains.

I think that the 91s are needed for the higher frequency service, and that is why they don't want them to go to Glasgow. They could be 'stepped up' by about 2 hours.

 

[Galvanize]

I actually quite like the timetable myself, yes the passengers who use Peterborough or Doncaster for onward connections on and off the ECML for anglo-scottish traffic won't be too happy about the loss of some of their services, but at least some of the Newcastle services are extended north to Edinburgh every 2 hours!

Alnmouth residents must be glad they get a train to London every two hours, not sure what good serving Northallterton every two hours is, after all they get Grand Central services to London, and there are TPEx services to Darlington, Durham, Newcastle etc, anyone for Edinburgh could surely still make do with changing at Darlington or Newcastle!

As for NXEC trains to Glasgow Central, useful as it sounds for people in the likes of Peterborough's catchment area (Stamford, Oakham, Leicester, Spalding, Sleaford, Cambridge, Norwich and other parts of east anglia), or Doncaster (Lincolnshire, Humberside and south yorkshire), do many people still stay on after Edinburgh, or do they change for a "faster" service via Falkirk, provided by Scotrail?

Afterall, it does depend what your final destination is after Glasgow, if it is somewhere like Wemyss Bay or Ayrshire, then Queen Street would be useless, so there would still be a reason for going to Central, but if your destination is somewhere like Balloch, or on the West Highland line, a transfer across Glasgow City centre would be impractical!

 

[chic]

Afterall, it does depend what your final destination is after Glasgow, if it is somewhere like Wemyss Bay or Ayrshire, then Queen Street would be useless, so there would still be a reason for going to Central, but if your destination is somewhere like Balloch, or on the West Highland line, a transfer across Glasgow City centre would be impractical!

er.. for balloch, you could take luggage in the lift, get a low level to partick and easily get the balloch train there.

The walk between queen street and central isn't that bad and neither is the bus service connecting the two stations. so provided information on connection between the stations is given, it's not a huge problem unless the passengers have mobility difficulties.

 

[me123]

So yes, you could get to Edinburgh 12 minutes earlier but Central is more conveniently located and it would take about 12 minutes to walk from Central to the dump that is Queen Street anyway, so it's not really faster for most people.

Looking at the other direction, the 1522 EDB-GLC departed 10 late at 1532 and got to GLC 1627. The 1630 FSR service cheated and left a minute early (so 3 mins ahead), but only got to the lesser Glasgow station 6 minutes earlier, so a saving of only 3 minutes despite going a much more direct route and being one of the faster ones that calls at Croy rather than Linlithgow/Polmont. I think passengers would rather spend 3 minutes on board a train and be taken to a more convenient (and much more pleasant!) station.

There are also many more destinations you can reach from Central than from Queen St, which is very much second best to the much grander Central station.

What a load of tosh. The convenience depends on where you are. Ayr and Gourock obviously would prefer a Central service. But passengers from Dunbartonshire and Monklands will find Central completely useless. And passengers from the Subway will rather have the direct interchange at Buchanan Street. Even passengers from the West End of the City (out to Dalmuir) would probably choose Queen Street because of a nicer(!) station environment and an easier interchange. I take it you've not sampled the low level stations; the sewers of Central are pretty miserable compared to the relatively decent Queen Street LL. And as for city locations, QS is on George Square and Central is on Argyle Street; both equally good locations for the city centre.

Grander Central Station? Might have nicer architecture (debatable, because QS's façade is blocked by a 60s concrete monstrosity), but leaving Queen Street (onto a well lit taxi rank and Subway interchange)or the always busy George Square is a hell of a lot nicer than going onto a dark corner of Union Street, through the smoky vale of Gordon Street or under the Heilanman's Umbrella. And, of course, no direct Subway interchange.

Passengers may well spend 3 minutes more on the train to get to Central, but they won't unless the frequency from GLC matches that from GLQ. Which it won't. A 15 minute frequency, soon to be 10 minutes, will always be superior to GLC's offering of an hourly stopper plus a faster service every other hour. The hourly Caledonian Express (Central-Waverley via Shotts, limited stop) service launching in December will have a competitive journey time from Central. But it will be supplemented by the slower Shotts trains, only be hourly, and still not prove attractive for the passengers who can use Queen Street. And, of course, the new service will not serve Motherwell or South of Edinburgh, which means that the real benefits of the ECML services will be lost.

An hourly XC, supplementing the Caledonian Express and beating the Shotts local, would be ideal in ensuring a direct link between Glasgow and the North East, whilst also providing a competitive service from Central to Edinburgh. However, as things stand with the Cross Country network, this is a minimum priority aspiration; things should be sorted out with the problems in England before we start introducing this service to Glasgow. Retaining the NXEC link is, IMO, the best option, even if it is only a couple of trains a day to keep the Motherwell-Edinburgh corridor open.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for NXEC trains to Glasgow Central, useful as it sounds for people in the likes of Peterborough's catchment dearea (Stamford, Oakham, Leicester, Spalding, Sleaford, Cambridge, Norwich and other parts of east anglia), or Doncaster (Lincolnshire, Humberside and south yorkshire), do many people still stay on after Edinburgh, or do they change for a "faster" service via Falkirk, provided by Scotrail?

My experience is that people do, in fact, change to Scotrail. Given that most NXEC trains into Edinburgh don't go to Glasgow and Scotrail has that fantastic Falkirk service, a lot of people change onto the turbostars. This often provides the best journey time than calling at all stations via Shotts or waiting an hour for a fast service to Central.

 

[yorkie]

What a load of tosh. The convenience depends on where you are. Ayr and Gourock obviously would prefer a Central service. But passengers from Dunbartonshire and Monklands will find Central completely useless. And passengers from the Subway will rather have the direct interchange at Buchanan Street. Even passengers from the West End of the City (out to Dalmuir) would probably choose Queen Street because of a nicer(!) station environment and an easier interchange. I take it you've not sampled the low level stations; the sewers of Central are pretty miserable compared to the relatively decent Queen Street LL. And as for city locations, QS is on George Square and Central is on Argyle Street; both equally good locations for the city centre.

What a load of "tosh" to you too.

There are 20 arrivals between 0745 and 0830 into GLQ, several of which are poxy DMUs. By contrast, there are 38 arrivals into GLC in the same 45 minute peak period - almost double, and with generally longer trains. The passenger numbers must be considerably more than double using Central compared to Queen Street.

I don't deny that Queen Street will be more convenient for people from stations served by it, but there are many more destinations that are served by Central, for whom a change at Edinburgh and a walk across Glasgow is going to be inconvenient. A potential cross-platform change at York is nothing compared to that.

 

[Donny Dave]

Mind it is odd that major interchanges such as Doncaster and Peterbrough have been ommitted from the Aberdeen service.

Doncaster has been pretty well shafted in the proposed timetable .....

Currently, there is 3 services a day (2 on Saturdays) between Doncaster and Aberdeen, but on a weekday, there is 9 direct trains to Edinburgh, and 11 from there.

However, in the proposed SLC2 timetable, I've counted 6 direct Doncaster - Edinburgh services (a reduction of 33%), and 5 Edinburgh - Doncaster services (a reduction of over 50%).

When this timetable was first proposed a while back (March/April 2008), I did predict then that you would probably have to change twice (depending on time of day) to reach Edinburgh from Doncaster. Sadly, this does appear to be the case.

Another thing I've noted, is that all northbound (York and beyond) services will leave in a 15-20 minute window each hour, with all arrivals from the York direction at roughly the same times. Not that convenient for passengers from the north to the Humber region (except those from Hull, who are having the Northern services retimed to connect to NXEC services (No offence meant Max)).

 

[Lee_Again]

So... the earliest arrival in Edinburgh, from London, will now become a Euston departure. How mad is that? 05.47, changing at Carlisle, arrives Edinburgh at 11.10, some 10 minutes before the first ECML service.

Yes, it does depart much earlier, but that's the point.

I have said it before, and will no doubt do so many times again, but the train must be able to provide a day return option otherwise the airlines have a free run. Why is there not a 4hr service leaving the Cross at 5.45(ish)?

I travel to Edinburgh about 10 times per year. A train journey with breakfast, Internet access, snoozing time and coffee plus a return with dinner, the Internet and relaxation time is far more attractive than an Easyjet flight from Luton.

 

[philjo]

At the moment there are the following morning northbound departures from Stevenage between 07:00 and 08:00 :

07:19 Glasgow
07:29 Leeds
07:44 Hull (HT)
07:50 Newcastle
07:56 Leeds (calling at Wakefield & Leeds only)

All of these services have a reasonable number of people boarding at Stevenage - I understand that many of them drive some distance to get to Stevenage as is it is quicker for them than having to go into London to join the train. If having to travel via KX, it would take an hour longer to allow for connection time & mean additional cost as you could not use the "Not London" fares.

In the new timetable, all of these departures are replaced by only the 07:55 to Leeds

I suspect that a lot of the business travellers needing to get to Newcastle etc will be driving to Luton or Stansted instead once the timetable changes.

I was under the impression that Hull Trains wanted to increase the number of their services that call at Stevenage - on the version I looked at, there were no Hull services calling there at all. At present, there are 2 northbound in the morning & 2 southbound in late afternon/evening.

 

[MCR247]

So... the earliest arrival in Edinburgh, from London, will now become a Euston departure. How mad is that? 05.47, changing at Carlisle, arrives Edinburgh at 11.10, some 10 minutes before the first ECML service.

Yes, it does depart much earlier, but that's the point.

I have said it before, and will no doubt do so many times again, but the train must be able to provide a day return option otherwise the airlines have a free run. Why is there not a 4hr service leaving the Cross at 5.45(ish)?

I travel to Edinburgh about 10 times per year. A train journey with breakfast, Internet access, snoozing time and coffee plus a return with dinner, the Internet and relaxation time is far more attractive than an Easyjet flight from Luton.

But the current one only gets in at 11.09!

 

[gingerheid]

I always stay on to go to Central, even though you have to specify Central in order to get a ticket there these days.

It's more convenient for me, you know it's going to turn up and that you're not going to miss it (because you're already on it), you know you're going to get a seat on it (try getting on one of the peak time services via Falkirk, let alone with a bag and a case, let alone finding a seat) and moreover...

Who wants to change anyway? We know people don't like changing even if it's wholly irrational (which I don't think it is). That's why services to places like Sunderland and Wrexham exist.

 

[Lee_Again]

But the current one only gets in at 11.09!

I know, it's why I travel on EasyJet all the b****y time.

My point was aimed at the new version, not the existing one. But the 5.45(ish) service that I mention should be running now too.

 

[route:oxford]

Is there any reason why the Cross Country Voyagers have to travel to Glasgow Central?

It would knock 30 minutes off the Journey if they were routed to Queen Street. With only 4/5 carriages they should fit no problem.

Although I would rather see at least one a day being extended from Edinburgh through to Perth.

 

[gingerheid]

Just guessing, but I imagine Queen Street must be quite full-ish these days?

 

[route:oxford]

Just guessing, but I imagine Queen Street must be quite full-ish these days?

Ok, a return cross-country service in lieu of a Scotrail service if paths are a bit short.

 

[Aictos]

Here's one question regarding the FCC's, at the moment there is only a hourly service between Hertford North and Letchworth most of the time because there are no paths available at Cambridge Junction for the trains to cross from the Down Slow to the Down Cambridge.

So when this new flyover gets built, will we see a basic half hourly service instead of a hourly service?

So at weekends at Hertford, departures could be at:

XX07 to Stevenage forms XX42 back at Hertford
XX38 to Stevenage forms XX12 back at Hertford

XX15 to Hertford forms XX25 back to London which would calling at limited stations like there at the moment with faster services in the peaks available.

 

[me123]

There are 20 arrivals between 0745 and 0830 into GLQ, several of which are poxy DMUs. By contrast, there are 38 arrivals into GLC in the same 45 minute peak period - almost double, and with generally longer trains. The passenger numbers must be considerably more than double using Central compared to Queen Street.

In the same period, there's only a single departure GLC-EDB, compared to Queen Street's four. Given that, in my experience, most of the Glasgow-Edinburgh flow comes from Glasgow itself (with Ayrshire passengers going by car largely and East Enders like myself going to an intermediate station or driving), the station it departs from is rather irrelevant. Indeed, Queen Street is preferable being better connected to the Subway and having a better interchange for the electric lines.

And these "poxy DMUs" serve rather important places like the City of Stirling, the large town that is (S)Cumbernauld and the affluent North of Glasgow; not to mention the low level electric services serving the West End, East End, Dunbartonshire and Monklands.

Nevertheless, this whole argument's rather pointless, as there shall be a more frequent service from Glasgow Central-Edinburgh launching in December. That will adequately serve that market. But the core Edinburgh-Glasgow service should, IMO, continue using Queen Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just guessing, but I imagine Queen Street must be quite full-ish these days?

Not as bad as they make it out to be. The normal departures are as follows:

xx:00 Edinburgh (1st stop Croy)
xx:15 Edinburgh (1st stop Falkirk High)
xx:18 Alloa
xx:21 Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld
xx:27 Anniesland via Maryhill
xx:30 Edinburgh (1st stop Croy)
xx:40 Aberdeen
xx:45 Edinburgh (1st stop Falkirk High)
xx:48 Dunblane
xx:51 Cumbernauld
xx:57 Anniesland via Maryhill

Despite the high frequency of services, they're all concentrated at about the same time. There are a number of paths available between xx:00 and xx:15 (one of which may soon be used for an Arbroath local service, apparently) and the same gap between xx:30 and xx:45 (the single Aberdeen service varies a bit, but there's easily a slot in there somewhere, especially if you have the Aberdeen train leave a bit earlier).

Anyhoo... having a XC service supplement the E-G services may not work. The E-G services work on less than a 10 minute turnaround, a testament to Scotrail's fine work! A XC service would, naturally, need more (at least 30 minutes), which would throw Scotrail's diagrams into disarray and block valuable platforms at Queen Street. Furthermore, a 4 or 5 car Voyager would not meet the demands of the peak services (with all 6 cars on all trains running pretty full), and has a disproportionately high amount of First Class space for this route. I'd prefer the train to run to Central, with a call at Motherwell to reinstate this valuable commuter route for Lanarkshire.

 

[Bittern]

Poor Motherwell. Once had connections to both the WCML and the ECML, then lost the WCML connection, and is now losing it's ECML connection.

 

[route:oxford]

And these "poxy DMUs" serve rather important places like the City of Stirling,

City of Stirling

and

City of Aberdeen
City of Dundee
City of Inverness
City of Perth
City of Elgin

Not to forget the Historic Cathedral

City of Dunblane
City of Dunkeld

 

[yorkie]

Is there any reason why the Cross Country Voyagers have to travel to Glasgow Central?

It would knock 30 minutes off the Journey if they were routed to Queen Street. With only 4/5 carriages they should fit no problem.

Although I would rather see at least one a day being extended from Edinburgh through to Perth.

Again, we have that 30 minute quote. Where on earth does it come from? Voyagers are timed at 59 minutes with calls at Motherwell and Haymarket, so you are claiming that a Voyager can go via Falkirk in 29? The only way this would be feasible is if they went non-stop and loops were added to allow overtaking, and some line speed improvements took place. This simply isn't going to happen!

As I posted yesterday, the 1522 EDB-GLC took 55 minutes to do the journey, departing at 1532 and arriving 1627. The equivalent service to GLQ, the 1530, departed 1 minute early arrived on time at GLQ 1621 - a journey time of 52 minutes. That's a difference of 3 minutes. NXEC services have about 10 minutes of slack time added to schedules, but even if you add that, you still are nowhere near the quoted 30 minutes extra journey time.

The route via Carstairs is a faster route, with the exception of Carstairs itself which is painfully slow.

And these "poxy DMUs" serve rather important places like the City of Stirling,

City of Stirling

and

City of Aberdeen
City of Dundee
City of Inverness
City of Perth
City of Elgin

Not to forget the Historic Cathedral

City of Dunblane
City of Dunkeld

All of those places are far easier to reach changing at Edinburgh rather than Queen Street. I am still absolutely certain that Central is a far better place for the ECML services to terminate, as there are more services, and more people, using Central. The fact that Queen Street serves places that you can reach easier from Edinburgh is utterly irrelevant as no sane person would go from the ECML via Glasgow to reach any of them!

 

[MCR247]

0808 EDB-GLC GR arr 0922. 1h14m
0815 EDB-GLQ SR arr 0906. 51m

So its actually closer to 25mins, my mistake

 

[Spaceflower]

I agree with yorkie on this for what it's worth.
He is speaking from an 'eastern counties' point of view, so knows the requirements for a Glasgow connection and likewise I would agree.

I'll collect my brownie points later........

 

[yorkie]

0808 EDB-GLC GR arr 0922. 1h14m
0815 EDB-GLQ SR arr 0906. 51m

So its actually closer to 25mins, my mistake

I don't think comparing a train with loads of slack time versus a train that is timed very tightly and is probably usually a little late is very fair at all.

Today's 0815 took 55 minutes. There were no fast services to Central today to compare it to, but the 1522 yesterday also took 55 minutes and XC services are timed to take 59 minutes from Glasgow to Edinburgh which is a more accurate reflection of the actual time taken, with a couple of minutes slack.

The true difference is about 6 minutes. Anything more than that is slack time on 'InterCity' type services.

 

[MCR247]

I don't think comparing a train with loads of slack time versus a train that is timed very tightly and is probably usually a little late is very fair at all.

Today's 0815 took 55 minutes. There were no fast services to Central today to compare it to, but the 1522 yesterday also took 55 minutes and XC services are timed to take 59 minutes from Glasgow to Edinburgh which is a more accurate reflection of the actual time taken, with a couple of minutes slack.

The true difference is about 6 minutes. Anything more than that is slack time on 'InterCity' type services.

But I dont see how that comes into it.

'Hi, I'm Joe Public and I'm going from Edinburgh to Glasgow. I havent used the route to queen st before, or the one to central. I think I'll go to Queen St because in the time table even though it leaves later, it gets in earlier so that means less time on a crowded train.'

Seems more realistic than

'Hi I'm Bill Public and I'm going to Glasgow aswell! I havent used either routes like Joe, but I'm going to go to Central, because even though I'm just an average member of the public, and I only know of journey times by checking timetables like Joe, I still somehow know that the train to Glasgow Central has loads of slack in the timetable!'

 

[Spaceflower]

What the hell are you's arguing about?

Excuse me for butting in but I don't think any of this comes into it and where is this going? Surely we're wandering........

 

[yorkie]

This is a topic about the ECML timetable and I'm saying that the ECML trains (regardless of whether they are Cross Country or London services) should continue to operate into Central, there should be more - not less - services than at present, but using Voyagers may be a better match for demand. It is important to continue direct trains to Glasgow, as many passengers will not like to change at Edinburgh (a huge station and this also involves barriers if joing FSR services).

Not only should these services continue operating to Glasgow, but they should run to Glasgow Central, because the journey time penalty of going via Carstairs is only approx 6 minutes (not the 30 or 25 minutes quoted), and if they ran into Queen Street then the slack time would only be added anyway (excessive slack time doesn't exist just because they take the Carstairs route - it's because they are Inter City services!) so the arguments saying Queen St is a lot quicker because the 'shuttle' services do not have slack is not relevant.

Additionally, Central is a more convenient place for onward connections. The suggestion that Queen Street is good for Scottish cities north of Glasgow is irrelevant as passengers for such destinations from the ECML would never go via Glasgow! They would change at Edinburgh.

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it!

 

[Spaceflower]

Ah, that's what I thought you were saying originally and I agree totally with everything youre saying.

As for MCR... I agree with you too, but it seems your chomping on an entirely different stick. This thread is about the ECML. Not Edinburgh - Glasgow city transfers?

Let me expand.......

Whilst Yorkie seems to be arguing the case for keeping ECML trains running to Glasgow central (for which I totally agree), it seems MCR... and, to an extent Me123, are arguing for the best transfer between Glasgow and Edinburgh, which again I agree with some of the points raised, but they seem to be neglecting the bigger picture of the ECML in it's entirity. Youre arguing about two different things! At least that's the way it appears to me....

 

[gingerheid]

And I agree


* As someone who regularly travels from Cambridge to Ayrshire and doesn't want to add changes at Doncaster and Edinburgh to changes at Peterborough and Glasgow.

I don't want to be travelling from Cambridge to Ayrshire via Euston, but it looks like that will be the way that it'll make sense to do it. (Or alternatively via X5 to Milton Keynes)

At risk of weakening something that supports the argument I want to agree with...

Is it not just the an off peak service to Edinburgh that Motherwell is losing, rather than the commuter service?

Am I right in thinking that, albeit involving a change, connections between Motherwell and Edinburgh will be much better than at present once the Glasgow - Shotts - Edinburgh fast service commences?

And that these will be in addition to the existing Glasgow Central - Carstairs - North Berwick trains that will continue to provide a direct peak time link?

 

[yorkie]

It is rumoured that the East Coast franchise do not want to use 180s, and so will be trying to get the maximum utilisation of existing stock possible, hence Glasgow going over to Voyagers (but do XC have enough spare stock?). It is also rumoured that a swap deal may be offered to get Grand Central's HSTs and/or a transfer of HSTs from XC, although I can't see the latter happening if XC are asked to run more services to Glasgow!