ECML mail trains

[Class15]

Hi all - a note for yesterday’s 5Z06 Willesden PRDC to Tyne S.S. on Railcam suggests that it was the final ever 325 on the ECML. Can anyone confirm? I have attached the note.

Note reads: final ever 325 up the ECML, last one

Was lucky to see it at Camden Road yesterday clearly!

 

[Iskra]

Yes, the mail runs to Low Fell are ending and the freed-up unit is going to strengthen the WCML runs.

Whether it ends up being the final 325 on the ECML ever, remains to be seen as strange things can happen.

 

[Class15]

Yes, the mail runs to Low Fell are ending and the freed-up unit is going to strengthen the WCML runs.

Whether it ends up being the final 325 on the ECML ever, remains to be seen as strange things can happen.

Any idea why they are ending? I don’t think Varamis are going up there are they?

 

[The Planner]

They will still potentially get diverted if the WCML is shut.

 

[Iskra]

Any idea why they are ending? I don’t think Varamis are going up there are they?

I think the contract must have been up and Royal Mail didn’t think it was warranted renewing it. DB are also in retreat, so perhaps their price wasn’t to RM’s liking. There was a brief mention of it in one of the more recent Branchline News, but I’m abroad so not in a position to directly quote or find it easily. Also worth noting that the A1(M) has been improved North of York over recent years so road haulage is probably more competitive again.

 

[800001]

Hi all - a note for yesterday’s 5Z06 Willesden PRDC to Tyne S.S. on Railcam suggests that it was the final ever 325 on the ECML. Can anyone confirm? I have attached the note.

Note reads: final ever 325 up the ECML, last one

Was lucky to see it at Camden Road yesterday clearly!

Out of interest of it if it ran ecs to Tyne, did it return south in use?

 

[ExRes]

I think the contract must have been up and Royal Mail didn’t think it was warranted renewing it. DB are also in retreat, so perhaps their price wasn’t to RM’s liking

Swap DB for EWS and 2024 for 2004 and I think it's called deja vu

 

[Class15]

Out of interest of it if it ran ecs to Tyne, did it return south in use?

Going to Mossend, I believe, next.

 

[fgwrich]

Swap DB for EWS and 2024 for 2004 and I think it's called deja vu

Indeed, DB does seem to be shrinking at a considerable rate and the EWS of 2004 seems to be rearing its head quite rapidly. I was looking at HTA wagons on Flickr the other day for some modelling inspirations, and came across a few interesting bits and pieces - the DB converted biomass wagon for example ended up sitting around never actually seeing service before being scrapped, while EWS staff still find it somewhat galling to see ex EWS locos work with EWS branded wagons on some of the last remaining Coal services out there…

I wonder if Varamis will now have their eyes on the paths. While it is good to hear WCML Postal traffic is up, it is disappointing to see ECML down. If only there were enough units converted and not sat in storage *cough cough ROG Orion*

 

[800001]

Going to Mossend, I believe, next.

Thanks, seemed strange doing an ECS when it had finished.

I’ve seen a video of 325006+015 heading north through Morpeth from Tyne! When was the last time a double 325 ran on ECML?

 

[Thekartdriver]

Thanks, seemed strange doing an ECS when it had finished.

I’ve seen a video of 325006+015 heading north through Morpeth from Tyne! When was the last time a double 325 ran on ECML?

325006 and 325015 were the 2 that were always kept at Tyne S.S but they only used 1 of them per run so probably been a long time since a double 325 on the ECML

 

[furnessvale]

I think the contract must have been up and Royal Mail didn’t think it was warranted renewing it. DB are also in retreat, so perhaps their price wasn’t to RM’s liking. There was a brief mention of it in one of the more recent Branchline News, but I’m abroad so not in a position to directly quote or find it easily. Also worth noting that the A1(M) has been improved North of York over recent years so road haulage is probably more competitive again.

Don't the actual units belong to RM and not DB?

If so, presumably other FOCs have been approached and are equally not interested.

 

[Starmill]

Don't the actual units belong to RM and not DB?

If so, presumably other FOCs have been approached and are equally not interested.

I guess if it's the case that all of the units will continue to be gainfully employed, Royal Mail aren't too worried about redirecting their capacity. They have got pretty vast capacity in their network after all.

 

[Adrian Barr]

the mail runs to Low Fell are ending and the freed-up unit is going to strengthen the WCML runs.

Indeed, and with the exception of the existing 1M36 / 1S05 return working from Shieldmuir to Daventry, pretty much the whole pattern of Royal Mail timings and headcodes have changed.

The previous 1M44 16:20 Shieldmuir - Warrington and 1A97 onward to the PRDC have been replaced by a 1M27 12:35 Shieldmuir - PRDC.

Northbound, 1M96 16:16 PRDC - Warrington and 1S96 onward to Shieldmuir have been replaced by 1F05 12:26 PRDC - Warrington and 1S24 onward to Shieldmuir.

The East coast mails have effectively been sacrificed to provide units to run a new 1M55 14:19 Shieldmuir - Daventry and 1S55 20:44 return.

Incidentally, this means that all the mail units in use on a given day can be seen in a two-hour period between 15:30 and 17:30 passing through Wigan on 1M27 / 1M55 / 1S24 / 1S05.

While in theory there should be enough units to run the east coast mails in addition to the above, I think in practice it might be a struggle. When the new Daventry terminal was opened, the 1M36 service (which started in August 2023) was initially introduced in addition to the rest of the trains, but not long after that, the 1M03 Shieldmuir - Warrington and 1S55 return were discontinued. I suspect this was due to issues with unit availability.

In a thread from last year, it was asked whether Royal Mail would be introducing more services to the "South Midlands Super Hub" at Daventry in 2024. I commented that there were paths but I wasn't sure where the units would come from - but now it looks like we have an answer - from the east coast main line!

I think the contract must have been up and Royal Mail didn’t think it was warranted renewing it.

I dug up an old DB customer newsletter from 2020 which mentions Royal Mail and "a five-year contract extension to operate and maintain its fleet of 15 Class 325 units". Surprising to think the 325s are now 30 years old! I think DB basically run whatever pattern of services Royal Mail require using their fleet of 325s, and presumably Royal Mail are prioritising an extra Daventry train over the Low Fell service. One thing that counts against the east coast service is that it used two units, each of which only worked one train per day, either northbound or southbound. If the Daventry trains are loaded both ways it means each unit used does two loaded runs per day instead of one.

Don't the actual units belong to RM and not DB?

If so, presumably other FOCs have been approached and are equally not interested.

I believe the units are Royal Mail owned, yes. It will be interesting to see what happens when the contract to operate them is up for renewal, which should be next year judging from that newsletter. If Royal Mail want to run more trains, they could potentially tender for that, maybe separately from the operation of the existing 325 fleet. I think there was a period from 2006-2012 (or something like that) when the east coast trains ceased running before resuming again, so it's not impossible they could make a comeback at some point. On the other hand, Royal Mail may view the situation as that they have an existing fleet of road and rail vehicles, with the priority being to use them cost-effectively rather than pay to hire in more resources from outside. I don't know that much about the overall Royal Mail logistics operation (for example if it's all done in-house or some road haulage is contracted out, costs of road vs rail), so it's hard to say.

***

On that old thread I already mentioned about the Daventry mail trains, we were discussing the lack of wires into the terminal and the need for diesel-haulage from Daventry Reception Sidings. There was a brief attempt to use the Daventry shunt loco when the trains first started, but that was soon abandoned in favour of a DB class 66 outbased at Daventry just for the shunt moves. Adding to the mystery, as far as I can tell the Daventry shunt loco at the time was an ex British Steel machine (numbered 460, GEC 5425 of 1976). Was there a brief, glorious moment where a loco more at home at Redcar steelworks was hauling mail trains? Or was it just a fever dream based on an inadequate knowledge of the Daventry shunter fleet?

Anyway, in that thread I suggested a Class 08 might be more successful hauling mail units, and lo and behold 08629 is now hauling the mail units to the terminal. Photos show 08629 under overhaul during September 2023 (shunting Eastleigh Yard previously), and class 66s were in use until December at least, suggesting 08629 arrived at Daventry sometime around the beginning of the year.

Good to find some decent shots of operations on the branch (by robmcrorie on flickr). The secret life of a mail gronk revealed...
Previous operation using class 66: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53408404313/
08629 hauling the units of 1M36 along the branch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53649686465/
Drone view of the 08 on the branch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53649699982/
Great drone shot of a 325 in the terminal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53650919619/

 

[50002Superb]

Indeed, and with the exception of the existing 1M36 / 1S05 return working from Shieldmuir to Daventry, pretty much the whole pattern of Royal Mail timings and headcodes have changed.

The previous 1M44 16:20 Shieldmuir - Warrington and 1A97 onward to the PRDC have been replaced by a 1M27 12:35 Shieldmuir - PRDC.

Northbound, 1M96 16:16 PRDC - Warrington and 1S96 onward to Shieldmuir have been replaced by 1F05 12:26 PRDC - Warrington and 1S24 onward to Shieldmuir.

The East coast mails have effectively been sacrificed to provide units to run a new 1M55 14:19 Shieldmuir - Daventry and 1S55 20:44 return.

Incidentally, this means that all the mail units in use on a given day can be seen in a two-hour period between 15:30 and 17:30 passing through Wigan on 1M27 / 1M55 / 1S24 / 1S05.

While in theory there should be enough units to run the east coast mails in addition to the above, I think in practice it might be a struggle. When the new Daventry terminal was opened, the 1M36 service (which started in August 2023) was initially introduced in addition to the rest of the trains, but not long after that, the 1M03 Shieldmuir - Warrington and 1S55 return were discontinued. I suspect this was due to issues with unit availability.

In a thread from last year, it was asked whether Royal Mail would be introducing more services to the "South Midlands Super Hub" at Daventry in 2024. I commented that there were paths but I wasn't sure where the units would come from - but now it looks like we have an answer - from the east coast main line!



I dug up an old DB customer newsletter from 2020 which mentions Royal Mail and "a five-year contract extension to operate and maintain its fleet of 15 Class 325 units". Surprising to think the 325s are now 30 years old! I think DB basically run whatever pattern of services Royal Mail require using their fleet of 325s, and presumably Royal Mail are prioritising an extra Daventry train over the Low Fell service. One thing that counts against the east coast service is that it used two units, each of which only worked one train per day, either northbound or southbound. If the Daventry trains are loaded both ways it means each unit used does two loaded runs per day instead of one.



I believe the units are Royal Mail owned, yes. It will be interesting to see what happens when the contract to operate them is up for renewal, which should be next year judging from that newsletter. If Royal Mail want to run more trains, they could potentially tender for that, maybe separately from the operation of the existing 325 fleet. I think there was a period from 2006-2012 (or something like that) when the east coast trains ceased running before resuming again, so it's not impossible they could make a comeback at some point. On the other hand, Royal Mail may view the situation as that they have an existing fleet of road and rail vehicles, with the priority being to use them cost-effectively rather than pay to hire in more resources from outside. I don't know that much about the overall Royal Mail logistics operation (for example if it's all done in-house or some road haulage is contracted out, costs of road vs rail), so it's hard to say.

***

On that old thread I already mentioned about the Daventry mail trains, we were discussing the lack of wires into the terminal and the need for diesel-haulage from Daventry Reception Sidings. There was a brief attempt to use the Daventry shunt loco when the trains first started, but that was soon abandoned in favour of a DB class 66 outbased at Daventry just for the shunt moves. Adding to the mystery, as far as I can tell the Daventry shunt loco at the time was an ex British Steel machine (numbered 460, GEC 5425 of 1976). Was there a brief, glorious moment where a loco more at home at Redcar steelworks was hauling mail trains? Or was it just a fever dream based on an inadequate knowledge of the Daventry shunter fleet?

Anyway, in that thread I suggested a Class 08 might be more successful hauling mail units, and lo and behold 08629 is now hauling the mail units to the terminal. Photos show 08629 under overhaul during September 2023 (shunting Eastleigh Yard previously), and class 66s were in use until December at least, suggesting 08629 arrived at Daventry sometime around the beginning of the year.

Good to find some decent shots of operations on the branch (by robmcrorie on flickr). The secret life of a mail gronk revealed...
Previous operation using class 66: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53408404313/
08629 hauling the units of 1M36 along the branch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53649686465/
Drone view of the 08 on the branch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53649699982/
Great drone shot of a 325 in the terminal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/53650919619/

Really interesting post, thank you for taking the time putting all that together.

Wrt to the two hour window at Wigan. Is there a specific day/days that all four are virtually guaranteed to work?

 

[Adrian Barr]

Is there a specific day/days that all four are virtually guaranteed to work?

Yes, probably worth pointing out that those trains run Tuesday - Friday and should be reliable runners

On Mondays the only class 1 mails are the 1M55 from Shieldmuir to Daventry and 1S55 return

A couple of new weekly Class 325 maintenance trips are also worth mentioning:

5M31 06:07 SO Mossend - Crewe
5S02 07:07 MO Crewe - Mossend
That pair are fairly likely to run but not guaranteed.

There's also a 5A05 06:45 MSX Crewe - PRDC which replaces the previous 5A91 11:11 Crewe - PRDC, but that one is very much "as required" and will be probably be cancelled more often than it runs.
The working in the other direction is a 5K07 00:19 MTX from PRDC to Crewe which is unchanged and runs as required

The "as required" 5G20 11:23 test run from Crewe to Stafford and back (returns as 5K21) is also unchanged and runs occasionally.

The only other regular 325 moves are just the empty stock of the Shieldmuir workings to and from Mossend

 

[50002Superb]

@Adrian Barr the Daily Mail article today states that only six 325 units are in working order, how does that fit with the current diagrams?

Now Royal Mail to stop deliveries by railway after more than 200 years

The postal service will inform staff today that it is planning to sell off its freight trains and switch to road deliveries.

www.dailymail.co.uk

...However, a Royal Mail source last night indicated that only six of these 30-year-old trains are still in use.

 

[Adrian Barr]

the Daily Mail article today states that only six 325 units are in working order

That figure is inaccurate. The daily workings (Tue-Fri) involve 3 trains starting at Mossend and one from the PRDC. All services are formed of 2 units, except for 1M36 / 1S05 return which is 3. That requires 9 units. None of the workings have been short-formed this week from what I can see.

Considering there are 15 units in total, the workings only require 60% availability. I think the problem is that they would struggle to reliably guarantee the availability needed to run a service which required more units in traffic daily (such as two more units for the east coast trains). From Royal Mail's point of view they are paying to maintain a fleet of 15 class 325s of which only 9 are in traffic per day. In the news articles about the end of the 325s the Royal Mail spokesman mentions maintenance issues being a factor. With the trains being 30 years old and somewhat tired, it's not entirely surprising they want to get rid of them.

A Royal Mail spokesperson said it was becoming difficult to secure parts for maintenance and, after reviewing plans to acquire new trains, it was decided that using other commercial rail services and increasing road deliveries was a better option.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...nd-of-the-line-for-royal-mails-freight-trains

Anyway, I don't want to turn this thread into a general discussion on the end of the 325s, which is being discussed here - Royal Mail to cease using trains

 

[50002Superb]

Understood and thanks again for your comprehensive response, I thought this particular point was more suited for discussion here given the prior content.

 

[50002Superb]

Is @Adrian Barr or anyone else able to provide a summary as to the current 325 fleet please?

I’m guessing that some are now stored at various locations (Crewe Electric?) but others still see regular use?

 

[Adrian Barr]

The units in regular use recently have been 01,02,05,09,11,14 and 15.

The 1M36 / 1S55 return working from Shieldmuir to Daventry has stopped running as operations wind down (10 October was the date originally quoted for the complete end of services).

This leaves the remaining trains as 1M55 / 1S55 Shieldmuir to Daventry and return (SX), 1S24 Willesden to Shieldmuir (MSX) and 1M27 Shieldmuir to Willesden (MSX), which equates to six units operating in pairs.

The easiest way to keep an eye on these movements is to do a search for Shieldmuir Mail Terminal on RealTime trains (where they all start or finish), e.g. for last Friday:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=ZZ

The Saturday 5M31 Mossend - Crewe and Monday 5S02 Crewe - Mossend maintenance moves are also still operating; they are "as required" but quite likely to run.

The morning 5A05 path from Crewe to Willesden, along with the 5K07 return around midnight are also "as required" but rarely used.

 

[DBS92042]

Would anyone be able to confirm if the last planned 1S24 PRDC to Shieldmuir is still planned for tomorrow 20/09? And if so, will this be the final Royal Mail-owned 325 working out of Willesden PRDC?

Thanks in advance

 

[Class15]

Would anyone be able to confirm if the last planned 1S24 PRDC to Shieldmuir is still planned for tomorrow 20/09? And if so, will this be the final Royal Mail-owned 325 working out of Willesden PRDC?

Thanks in advance

Should be okay until 10 October?

 

[DBS92042]

Should be okay until 10 October?

I'm hearing from other sources that tomorrow if the final day of 325 operation and wondered if this had been confirmed officially anywhere?

 

[Class15]

I'm hearing from other sources that tomorrow if the final day of 325 operation and wondered if this had been confirmed officially anywhere?

DB said 10 October. I doubt that’s incorrect.

 

[Adrian Barr]

I'm hearing from other sources that tomorrow if the final day of 325 operation and wondered if this had been confirmed officially anywhere?

Hmmm... first I've heard of this but it looks like you might be right there!

The exact phrasing of the original 10 October date quoted in the press may depend on where it was reported, but for example the Guardian phrased it as "The company has confirmed it will decommission its remaining freight trains by 10 October" which is consistent with the final runs being earlier than that.

Would anyone be able to confirm if the last planned 1S24 PRDC to Shieldmuir is still planned for tomorrow 20/09? And if so, will this be the final Royal Mail-owned 325 working out of Willesden PRDC?

1S24 / 1M27 / 1M55 / 1S55 should run normally tomorrow. There might still be 325s moved in or out of Willesden after that depending on where they decide to keep the units, but yes it looks like 1S24 tomorrow will form the last planned loaded mail departure from Willesden with a 325.

 

[DBS92042]

Hmmm... first I've heard of this but it looks like you might be right there!

The exact phrasing of the original 10 October date quoted in the press may depend on where it was reported, but for example the Guardian phrased it as "The company has confirmed it will decommission its remaining freight trains by 10 October" which is consistent with the final runs being earlier than that.



1S24 / 1M27 / 1M55 / 1S55 should run normally tomorrow. There might still be 325s moved in or out of Willesden after that depending on where they decide to keep the units, but yes it looks like 1S24 tomorrow will form the last planned loaded mail departure from Willesden with a 325.

Thank you for the help and info Adrian, much appreciated

 

[50002Superb]

Hi All,

Have the 325 workings now ended?

 

[Freightmaster]

Hi All,

Have the 325 workings now ended?

Yes - the last revenue earning trains ran on Friday 20th September, as detailed on the dedicated topic:

Royal Mail to cease using trains

Interestingly, the last thing a modern postal service with distribution centers supplied by rail, as in Switzerland, needs is flexibility. Punctuality is crucial in these closely interlinked processes, and neither late nor early delivery is helpful. This is why the postal trains are closely...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[50002Superb]

Apologies, that thread had somehow passed me by.