Economics of Trolleybuses in the UK

[Deerfold]

Well leaving aside any future bus re-regulation or remunicipalisation.

Much as I'd welcome that I think it's unlikely from any of the mainstream political parties.

The state can simply pay for the infrastructure and charge Stagecoach for the use of the infrastructure so that Stagecoach is in a similar overall financial situation (apart from having a fleet of buses that have a rather higher readiness due to being far simpler) and it acquires the benefit I have calculated.

I've not noticed any of the big bus companies calling for infrastructure like this. Short of any change in legislation I suspect Stagecoach would just carry on running non-trolleybuses.

 

[HSTEd]

Plus there's the complication of having non-standard vehicles (i.e. at the moment an E400 on the Oxford Road services can be cascaded away to another route, but a Trolleybus can't so easily).

Well I am proposing a colossal trolleybus network on a national scale, so there is likely to be plenty of places to cascade trolleybuses to, especially if it something along the lines of the Cl308s being sent to Leeds to reduce the cost of the electrification work.

Much as I'd welcome that I think it's unlikely from any of the mainstream political parties.

Unfortunately no, but then this plan is just as unlikely for ideological reasons. And I note that the Green Party had bus re-regulation in their manifesto at the last general election, whether you consider them a mainstream party or not is another question. (I didn't vote for them due to conflicting views on other topics)

I've not noticed any of the big bus companies calling for infrastructure like this. Short of any change in legislation I suspect Stagecoach would just carry on running non-trolleybuses.

Unfortunately true, but as Oxford Road is under the control of local authorities they could just slap a weight limit on the road with exceptions for access and electric powered vehicles.

Then they would have to abandon the Oxford Road route entirely or convert to electric.

But then I am just pointing out the economic benefits that are only really achievable by re-regulation or full blown re-municipalisation.
Such benefits should not be ignored if we want to generate significant discussions on those points.

 

[tbtc]

Well I am proposing a colossal trolleybus network on a national scale, so there is likely to be plenty of places to cascade trolleybuses to, especially if it something along the lines of the Cl308s being sent to Leeds to reduce the cost of the electrification work

Trolleybuses would only work on the kind of congested urban routes that tend to see the newest double deckers.

Either you'd end up keeping these buses on these routes for the whole of their life (which would mean Oxford Road having knackered old buses with poor facilities in a generation's time) or you'd cascade them elsewhere.

Cascading them elsewhere would see other parts of Manchester/ UK lose their modern buses for these mid-life Oxford Road buses - it's one thing to have 308s replacing Pacers on the railways, but I can't see that working on bus routes.

The outcry against the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway was bad enough without it being run with fifteen year old buses (that are much older than the ones they replaced).

 

[HSTEd]

Trolleybuses would only work on the kind of congested urban routes that tend to see the newest double deckers.

Either you'd end up keeping these buses on these routes for the whole of their life (which would mean Oxford Road having knackered old buses with poor facilities in a generation's time) or you'd cascade them elsewhere.

Cascading them elsewhere would see other parts of Manchester/ UK lose their modern buses for these mid-life Oxford Road buses - it's one thing to have 308s replacing Pacers on the railways, but I can't see that working on bus routes.

The outcry against the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway was bad enough without it being run with fifteen year old buses (that are much older than the ones they replaced).

Well since conventional bus orders would likely slow drastically in a reasonable world that went for big time trolleybus orders, the numbers of "modern buses" that would be around in 10-15 years time when the Oxford road buses need to be disposed of would be rather small.

And the Oxford Road corridor has M and W-reg buses on it now on the Magic Bus services.

And 78 double decker buses per day each direction is a sufficiently low figure that I imagine there are several routes not in the most stereotypical urbanised locations that come close to qualifying once you consider network effects.

Also one of the major problems wiht older buses is smells and vibrations from the engine bay due to failing seals and the like, this is not a problem with a trolleybus, similar in principle to how diesel trains have shorter useful lives than electric ones.

EDIT:

Also there is the question of whether you would need double lane electrification on the entire bus network, it would be interesting to see whether lightly used routes that share significant amounts of road with heavily used trolleybus lines could be supplied with short sections of "single" trolleybus equipment with baloon loops on the end to permit the buses to turn around.

That cuts effective costs at-least in half because there would be no need for switchwork for significant distances.

 

[tbtc]

Well since conventional bus orders would likely slow drastically in a reasonable world that went for big time trolleybus orders, the numbers of "modern buses" that would be around in 10-15 years time when the Oxford road buses need to be disposed of would be rather small.

And the Oxford Road corridor has M and W-reg buses on it now on the Magic Bus services.

And 78 double decker buses per day each direction is a sufficiently low figure that I imagine there are several routes not in the most stereotypical urbanised locations that come close to qualifying once you consider network effects.

Also one of the major problems wiht older buses is smells and vibrations from the engine bay due to failing seals and the like, this is not a problem with a trolleybus, similar in principle to how diesel trains have shorter useful lives than electric ones.

So would Magicbus need modern Trolleybuses in your plan?

It seems a bit premature to be talking about every town in the country having a Trolleybus system - look how slowly other things are taken up (like tram systems).

Plus there's a little irony in the idea of some wanting Trolleybuses to have diesel engines to allow them to deal with disruptions/ diversions/ extensions beyond the wires, yet being against bi-mode IEP.

 

[Deerfold]

Well I am proposing a colossal trolleybus network on a national scale, so there is likely to be plenty of places to cascade trolleybuses to, especially if it something along the lines of the Cl308s being sent to Leeds to reduce the cost of the electrification work.

Good luck.

Unfortunately no, but then this plan is just as unlikely for ideological reasons. And I note that the Green Party had bus re-regulation in their manifesto at the last general election, whether you consider them a mainstream party or not is another question. (I didn't vote for them due to conflicting views on other topics)

I don't consider them a mainstream party, largely as they don't stand in my local constituency.

Unfortunately true, but as Oxford Road is under the control of local authorities they could just slap a weight limit on the road with exceptions for access and electric powered vehicles.

I guess there'd be complaints about local authorites misusing their powers if there was no technical reason for a weight limit on such a major road - and/or the buses would start clogging up the parallel routes.

On one of the few instances I saw of First being innovative they lauched a route which went Halifax - Ripponden - Rishworth - Commons - Littleborough Roachdale which lasted several months until the council put a weight limit on the only practical bridge over the Ryburn.

Then they would have to abandon the Oxford Road route entirely or convert to electric.

But then I am just pointing out the economic benefits that are only really achievable by re-regulation or full blown re-municipalisation.
Such benefits should not be ignored if we want to generate significant discussions on those points.

I'm all for going to a decent system such as that used in London or much of the continent where bus companies are effectively paid a management fee, with the amount paid depending on the quality (including timing) of the service they provide.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Probably the best places to trial trolleybuses are towns that still have municipal transport systems.
Oxford St - the improvement in air quality alone would make it well worth every penny spent!

 

[tbtc]

Probably the best places to trial trolleybuses are towns that still have municipal transport systems

If only Edinburgh had suggested one following the route of the number 22 bus, they could have saved a lot of bother...

 

[Rational Plan]

Obviously the best place to start would be London. As it has the power to force operators to use whatever bus it says. Also it has the biggest incentive to reduce road side pollution to avoid fines from the EU.

The only problem is it would take a few billion just convert zones 1 and 2. Thats a lot of money for no extra capacity. While it may make sense from reducing subsidies required and less pollution, it's not something a politician can stand in front of and cut a ribbon. It gives no extra bums on seats.

 

[Pugwash]

Obviously the best place to start would be London. As it has the power to force operators to use whatever bus it says. Also it has the biggest incentive to reduce road side pollution to avoid fines from the EU.

The only problem is it would take a few billion just convert zones 1 and 2. Thats a lot of money for no extra capacity. While it may make sense from reducing subsidies required and less pollution, it's not something a politician can stand in front of and cut a ribbon. It gives no extra bums on seats.

I doubt it would cost billions, it can be done route by route, the cost savings with regard to fuel and maintenance would incredible.

 

[kylemore]

I doubt it would cost billions, it can be done route by route, the cost savings with regard to fuel and maintenance would incredible.

Well it's going to cost Leeds the incredible amount of £250m to build one cross city route alone!
Not only that it apparently requires SIX YEARS of planning and construction.

So the figure of £Billions is very accurate - on the basis of the Leeds figures to completely convert London would cost more than it cost NASA to put a man on the Moon!
And it would take longer than it took the ancient Egyptians to build all three Gaza Pyramids!