ECS - why not run as passenger services?

[ivanhoe]

As in most service Industries, salary costs are a great percentage of overall costs. However, some of the examples given above actually make me cringe as a taxpayer( we are all taxpayers, I know). There is no economic arguement for taking empty trains over 100 miles to begin operation at 6.45 from Liverpool to Norwich. It may be operationally simpler for a Train Company and it's staff but we are in different times now. Surely Train Companies have some incentives to work together to share resources. After all, from a passenger point of view, they are not in competition with each other!

 

[met331]

Nope the goverment dictates that trains run at 6.45 am from Liverpool so we run it. It was part of emt franchise commitment and would £4000 a day to not run it. Same with the Crewe service

 

[blue sabre]

Sorry but No. There isn't a route from Heaton depot to Sunderland that does not pass through Newcastle Central station.
(Perhaps you're thinking of the High Level Bridge which is east of Newcastle Central, but the only lines across it come off the station, so a reverse in the station would be required to cross that bridge).

Yeah, I did mean the high level! Silly me. For some reason I thought there was a connection to the ECML here that would take you Northbound avoiding Central Station. I forgot some idiot decided to put a bloody big Castle in the way!

 

[tbtc]

There is no economic arguement for taking empty trains over 100 miles to begin operation at 6.45 from Liverpool to Norwich

There are clear economic reasons for doing it - few passengers at that time of day, having to open certain stations earlier, additional staffing costs, early morning diversions meaning you can't guarantee the stations it would pass through, penalties on EMT if they fail to run the service on time etc etc

Whether social reasons should count higher, and the three o'clock form Nottingham should be part of the next franchise, is another story, but on economic grounds, EMT are sadly correct

The alternative would be maintaining a base on Merseyside for one train a day. This would make some sense (e.g. in Central Trains days the first Norwich - Liverpool of the day was used on Great Yarmouth trips by Anglia first thing).

 

[Invincibles]

Daft idea but could the train not run with a Northern unit to Sheffield then head back to Manchester and Liverpool doubled up with the appropriate arrival from Nottingham.

By my reckoning the train will arrive at Sheffield at around 0835 on platform 5, so if the Nottingham - Liverpool also arrived on 5 instead of 2 then half of that could detach and head to Nottingham whilst the remaining half was joined to the northern unit to head back to Liverpool. Then presumably running as an EMT train. In my experience there would be demand for 4 cars from Nottingham to Sheffield but only about 2 carraiges worth would continue to Manchester so that would work.

If the full cascade ever happens then the last train that makes it to Liverpool could deposit a unit in Liverpool over night for Northern to work the early morning train with. This would be ideal because it would save confusing people about which company was doing what.

Although this adds a join/split at Sheffield it should be well clear of the station before the arrival of the train to form the 0927 London St Pancras from 5 (the xx5x XC can go from 5 now I notice but presumably could go back to being from 6)

 

[ivanhoe]

There are clear economic reasons for doing it - few passengers at that time of day, having to open certain stations earlier, additional staffing costs, early morning diversions meaning you can't guarantee the stations it would pass through, penalties on EMT if they fail to run the service on time etc etc

Whether social reasons should count higher, and the three o'clock form Nottingham should be part of the next franchise, is another story, but on economic grounds, EMT are sadly correct

The alternative would be maintaining a base on Merseyside for one train a day. This would make some sense (e.g. in Central Trains days the first Norwich - Liverpool of the day was used on Great Yarmouth trips by Anglia first thing).

I think that you are missing the point. It is not about passengers joining a train at some stupid time but the fact that the train is burning precious resources( diesel) for the convenience of the TOC and shock horror it's staff. People working in public services are losing their jobs but the railways carry on as if what problem ! Does Stagecoach move buses at 3 am from Mansfield to start work on route 86 from Liverpool John Lennon to City Centre? Of course it does not. What idiot would move a bus 100 miles with a Mansfield driver to work on a route 100 miles away. Nobody has yet convinced me of the rational of what EMT do. Of course, it's all the DFT's fault. It's convenient.

 

[Greenback]

I think that you are missing the point. It is not about passengers joining a train at some stupid time but the fact that the train is burning precious resources( diesel) for the convenience of the TOC and shock horror it's staff. People working in public services are losing their jobs but the railways carry on as if what problem ! Does Stagecoach move buses at 3 am from Mansfield to start work on route 86 from Liverpool John Lennon to City Centre? Of course it does not. What idiot would move a bus 100 miles with a Mansfield driver to work on a route 100 miles away. Nobody has yet convinced me of the rational of what EMT do. Of course, it's all the DFT's fault. It's convenient.

I agree that it seems daft that TOC's have some long distance ECS moves. There must surely be a better way to do this, like the Northern/Scotrial service from STranraer to Newcastle maybe?

I don't, though, agree that this is done for the beenfit of railway staff! It's done because TOC's don't want or cannot work together to benefit all parties!

 

[met331]

I can tell you now its not done for the staffs benefit. Find me one member of staff that likes to sign on for duty at 3.03 am. It isnt run for EMT benefit either. They would happily not run a service until the 8.52 to Norwich. This is the 5.24 Nottingham - Liverpool working. They run it because they are obliged to run it. A staff depot at Liverpool couldnt happen as their isnt enough work or maintenance facilitys to operate a service from there. A liverpool depot would impact on Derby Nottingham and Lincoln as work would have to found for them to do once they arrived in Nottingham.
That would mean making at least 7 Drivers and 6 guards redundant.
Virgin at edge hill dont want the maintenance work and Allerton couldnt handle it anymore so where do you maintain them?
To just say it isnt economic to run an empty train is just plain misinformed despite the rather thin ecological grounds. As far as EMT is concerned its cheaper to run ECS than any other option

 

[Greenback]

It shows the lunacy of the railway system we have if running a train empty from Notitngham to liverpool in the middle of the night is indeed the most economic way to form an early service from Liverpool. No doubt this will be one of the areas targetted for cuts and/or reorganisation.