Edge Hill Spur

[eps200]

Do wonder what effect 20 miles more going ahead would have on all this?

Garath the Wirral line running was something I came up with because I couldn't think of anywhere to send the last four city line trains. I just hived off the new Brighton branch. Though perhaps a better solution would be to take an electrified borderlands line and join it onto a northerly city branch or a restored canada dock branch which neatly avoids upsetting anyone who uses the existing service, the only flaw is you get a slightly mental end to end journey time and the danger of delays cascading across the whole network. plus the map would look uglier.

 

[Bevan Price]

EDIT: cross-posted with Wavertreelad. Was addressing razor 89.

I feel you miss the point. The primary purpose is not to save changing passengers two minutes but to take commuter trains off the slow and congested Edge Hill-Lime Street section. Not only does it free up capacity on that section and Lime Street high level itself but it plugs East Liverpool and St Helens into a frequent and electric 'metro' service, including at least one new station somewhere around the university. It makes more direct services possible, plus a higher choice of city centre stations, rather than just Lime Street.

There is never going to be enough capacity for a high freqency metro type service on the line through Huyton to St. Helens. Thanks to the M60 approach at Broad Green, and the location of Wavertree Tech Park station, there is always going to be a 2 track bottleneck. With Trans Pennine Expresses (2 per hour), Liverpool - Preston (& beyond) semi-fasts (currently 1, maybe increasing to 2 per hour), and one or two freight paths per hour, it is going to be very difficult to include anything more than the current 4 per hour all-stations services between Liverpool & Huyton.

And personally, I don't think there is enough demand for cross-river passenger traffic to justify spending vast fortunes of our money on new tunnels, etc. The vast majority of travel is to or from the city centre, with transfer to London / Birmingham / Trans-Pennine services being the next most popular requirement. Moving City line services from Lime St. to Central or elsewhere would cause a lot of inconvenience.

As for Lime Street, there would be space to reinstate the former platforms 10 and 11 if they removed the roadway adjacent to the overall roof (at the south side of the station.) Although shorter than platforms 7 and 8, such platforms would be at least long enough to hold at least 4 car emus.

 

[JohnB57]

Where I do have concerns with Merseytravel is some of the schemes it has been involved in the past in Liverpool in particular, Merseytram, Liverpool South Parkway (miles from the airport!)...

But right by two railway lines. Which is handy.

 

[Wavertreelad]

There is never going to be enough capacity for a high freqency metro type service on the line through Huyton to St. Helens. Thanks to the M60 approach at Broad Green, and the location of Wavertree Tech Park station, there is always going to be a 2 track bottleneck. With Trans Pennine Expresses (2 per hour), Liverpool - Preston (& beyond) semi-fasts (currently 1, maybe increasing to 2 per hour), and one or two freight paths per hour, it is going to be very difficult to include anything more than the current 4 per hour all-stations services between Liverpool & Huyton. .

I would not dispute the twin track section from Roby Junction to Olive Mount, would be a bottle neck, a point I already raised in my post at 1328 today. Any solution here would I agree be very expensive and disruptive because it would require two bridges to be rebuilt including the one which forms the start of the M62 motorway. Having said that this junction/bridge is a local accident black spot so who knows what could happen in the longer term, but I don't think a solution is totally impossible and we are probably talking 10 years or more away when things could be very different.

And personally, I don't think there is enough demand for cross-river passenger traffic to justify spending vast fortunes of our money on new tunnels, etc. The vast majority of travel is to or from the city centre, with transfer to London / Birmingham / Trans-Pennine services being the next most popular requirement. Moving City line services from Lime St. to Central or elsewhere would cause a lot of inconvenience. .

I was not suggesting that all the City Line services terminate on the Wirral, but if the two tunnel connection was constructed they could simply run round the loop or serve the new extensions to Merseyrail. By diverting "local services" to a through and enlarged Central Stations, passengers wishing to travel from one part of the region to another could do this at either Central or possibly Moorfields much easier than currently possible whilst still being able to access mainline services from Lime Street. The whole point was instead of say 4 tph arriving at Lime Street and waiting there before returning to their starting point they would run through the loop and terminate elsewhere, with a balancing service running in the opposite direction to form the return journey, thus making better use of resources. A train sitting in a station awaiting its' next turn is not earning revenue for any company.

As for Lime Street, there would be space to reinstate the former platforms 10 and 11 if they removed the roadway adjacent to the overall roof (at the south side of the station.) Although shorter than platforms 7 and 8, such platforms would be at least long enough to hold at least 4 car emus.

Agree, but would not want to cut too much as that would not reduce the drop off /pick up area bearing in mind there is officially no stopping on Lime Street itself, and Lord Nelson Street is often congested and I think the is blocked off?

 

[Holly]

There is never going to be enough capacity for a high freqency metro type service on the line through Huyton to St. ...
As for Lime Street, there would be space to reinstate the former platforms 10 and 11 if they removed the roadway adjacent to the overall roof (at the south side of the station.) Although shorter than platforms 7 and 8, such platforms would be at least long enough to hold at least 4 car emus.

Yes, agreed.

Turning back trains from the Northern line at Edge Hill, instead of turning them back at Central would increase capacity as well as providing that much-needed station (or two) at the University. And building new platforms at Edge Hill for the service would be cheap, as contrasted with the huge expense of making changes at Central Station.

 

[Gareth]

Garath the Wirral line running was something I came up with because I couldn't think of anywhere to send the last four city line trains.

You're not the only one. Merseytravel are looking at it too. Some of these ideas are demonstrated in this document - http://www.liverpoollep.org/PDF/LCR%20position%20on%20HS2.pdf

 

[Wavertreelad]

You're not the only one. Merseytravel are looking at it too. Some of these ideas are demonstrated in this document - http://www.liverpoollep.org/PDF/LCR%20position%20on%20HS2.pdf

Actually this document probably has a more important source than Merseytravel, although no doubt they are involved somewhere. In fact originates from the umbrella organisation that represents all the local councils in the region as well as commercial interests, the Board can be found at http://www.liverpoollep.org/about_lep/our_board.aspx

The document is mainly aimed at gaining support for a direct HS2 connection to Liverpool and the way the required longer platforms would be incorporated into Lime Street station although there is little detail of how this would be achieved apart from extending part of the station into Lime Street itself over the current and recently completed open area and steps. Unfortunately this would destroy the impressive southern frontage of the station unless of course these platforms were underground.

The document also shows the clear intention to link the Northern Line with Edge Hill using the Wapping Tunnel but there is no indication of extending Central nor where trains using this tunnel would terminate so many options remain open.

I also note on pages 18 & 19 which deal with freight capacity that a line is shown to the north of the City that suggests perhaps a freight route would be developed eastwards towards Manchester by what appears to be the Kirkby line, presumably by building a connection from the Bootle Branch in the Kirkdale area.

Like all these sort of documents this is early days for this project and all it proves is that the authorities are rightly looking into the future of the Greater Liverpool Region transport requirements thirty or forty years ahead. It will be interesting to see how these plans more forward.

 

[pablo]

..............The document is mainly aimed at gaining support for a direct HS2 connection to Liverpool and the way the required longer platforms would be incorporated into Lime Street station although there is little detail of how this would be achieved apart from extending part of the station into Lime Street itself over the current and recently completed open area and steps. Unfortunately this would destroy the impressive southern frontage of the station unless of course these platforms were underground.

The document also shows the clear intention to link the Northern Line with Edge Hill using the Wapping Tunnel but there is no indication of extending Central nor where trains using this tunnel would terminate so many options remain open.

..........

A quick perusal shows the HS platforms not going over Lime Street itself, but going right up to it. Gradient would prevent being underground so, possibly, they'd have to be on stilts. Would be interesting to see an HS non-stopper end up in St. Johns Precinct........ oooh!

Also, extending the loop line after Lime Street u/g to Edge Hill, presumably via Waterloo tunnel, but no return chord shown. Is this a way to get rid of some of the Wirral Line trains for ever? Another oddity is the Aintree to S Pkwy country route. Can't see that flying. Otherwise, the best of luck. We've been seeing versions of this for forty-odd years.

 

[Holly]

A quick perusal shows the HS platforms not going over Lime Street itself, but going right up to it. Gradient would prevent being underground so, possibly, they'd have to be on stilts. Would be interesting to see an HS non-stopper end up in St. Johns Precinct........ ....

Even if the HS platforms do not extend over Lime Street a footbridge at platform height should for passenger convenience. With a waiting room / cafe / travel agency complex built West of Lime Street.
This would involve either raising the level of the HS trackbed or lowering Lime Street (the road). Better would be to do both.

 

[eps200]

20 miles more have a much better proposal for a HS lime street, they draw it just to the south with a bridge over the road. page 69
http://issuu.com/archetype-studio/docs/20_miles_more_report__a_counterprop/71?e=10657840/6537813

The tunnels not reaching lime street is a big issue though shame it can't go central > limestreet > other tunnel.

 

[Wavertreelad]

A quick perusal shows the HS platforms not going over Lime Street itself, but going right up to it. Gradient would prevent being underground so, possibly, they'd have to be on stilts. Would be interesting to see an HS non-stopper end up in St. Johns Precinct........ oooh!

Also, extending the loop line after Lime Street u/g to Edge Hill, presumably via Waterloo tunnel, but no return chord shown. Is this a way to get rid of some of the Wirral Line trains for ever? Another oddity is the Aintree to S Pkwy country route. Can't see that flying. Otherwise, the best of luck. We've been seeing versions of this for forty-odd years.

I had blown up the pdf and had spotted the platforms were not extended over Lime Street itself and had wondered the very same thoughts! Personally I'd rather they were moved flush with the existing platforms and the ends of the platform extended up a widened tunnel, but either way the collection/drop off point would go which might make it a bit difficult for passengers.

Linking either the Northern or City Lines or both u/g to one or more of the tunnels to Edge Hill does offer so many different travel opportunities, it could be almost a mini Crossrail and Thameslink scheme in Liverpool, but it could be 20 years before it is built, if ever!

I'm not sure if the map is showing Aintree to S Pkwy, because it could be the existing CLC and Runcorn Line to Edge Hill with the Bootle Branch heading towards the northern dock. Unfortunately the Chat Moss line is shown too far to the north of the M62 so the stretch from Rocket to Lime Street is not aligned. Taking therefore the inaccuracies of the map, the line from the Bootle Branch shown leaving it to the north of the R in Liverpool is either Wigan via Kirkby Line from Kirkdale, or the old Midland Railway Alexandra and Langton Dock Branch which closed in 1968. Whilst the trackbed has been long lifted and some of the cuttings filled in the alignment has been maintained and the tunnels remain in reasonably good condition.

http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/gallery/bootle.html

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums...half-miley-tunnels-liverpool-july-2012-a.html

Historically this route connected to the rest of the network at Fazakerley North Junction via a southern outer loop to the CLC route, which is now partially blocked and converted to a walk, whilst in the opposite direction towards the Ormskirk and Kirkby Lines although whether a connection to either is still possible is another issue. One alternative would be to construct a connection between The Midland Alexandra & Langton Dock Branch and the North Liverpool Extension at a point near to the "new" Asda store in Marsh Lane. I believe the trackbed is still in place and links the Ormskirk Line at Aintree Station. Removing the buffers at Ormskirk would allow freight trains to completely avoid the more congested Chat Moss Route and open up the route for through electric passenger services from Preston. The link below shows more about various schemes to open up some of the old Liverpool lines. The alignment of North Liverpool Extension from Bootle New Strand to Aintree formed the northern part of the Outer Loop Line and the section proposed is the stretch shown passing by the Giro.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/Merseyrail-Extensions.html



There are some interesting pictures on the various old and/or abandoned railway tunnels in the Liverpool area at the following links.

http://www.freewebs.com/oritelad/abandonedideas.htm

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/w/walton_on_the_hill/index.shtml

 

[pablo]

Interesting post.
The extent of Victorian cuttings and tunnels around Liverpool is amazing and shows that the sandstone is not difficult to work with. It suggests that the estimates for bringing HS2 Ph2 to Liverpool are inflated.
Hopefully, the electrification of the Liverpool & Manchester Railway will be a driver for connecting up the three radial suburban lines, instead of endless proposals for it. The planners have been doodling on their scrap pads of over forty years to my knowledge. I know they even applied for powers to connect Broadgreen to the CLC line to Gateacre/HX via a tunnel before the M62 blocked it, circa 1970/1.
One day the footling around will have to stop.

 

[Holly]

20 miles more have a much better proposal for a HS lime street, they draw it just to the south with a bridge over the road. page 69 http://issuu.com/archetype-studio/docs/20_miles_more_report__a_counterprop/71?e=10657840/6537813 [emphasis was added}

If I read it correctly that advocates a footway tunnel (subway) under Lime Street rather than a bridge.

I believe a footbridge over Lime Street would be better than a subway. It would offer views (windows), could be at platform level (with gentle ramp if need be) for passenger convenience, and lead into a pleasant airy building on the West side with cafes, shops or other facilities useful to arriving passengers. Much better than a subway which would be better suited to troglodytes than to humans. Not to mention all the complications of tunneling (sewers, cables, and who-knows-what in an old city).

Of course there would also be incorporated a pedestrian route for passengers to easily reach Central Station.

 

[duffield]

Removing the buffers at Ormskirk would allow freight trains to completely avoid the more congested Chat Moss Route and open up the route for through electric passenger services from Preston.

I would have thought you'd want to instead restore part of the former 'up' line for use as a passing loop round the buffers - if you were keeping the passenger setup unchanged with the electric/diesel change over. With the loop being long enough this means passenger trains could even sit either/both sides of the buffers at platform while freight passed by, increasing flexibility; and keeping the buffers is presumably safer for this sort of operation (otherwise why put them in in the first place?)

The following article says that this was the layout in 1973, see bottom right picture and caption:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormskirk_railway_station

Of course, the situation changes if you're going to electrify north of Ormskirk in which case you'd remove the buffers anyhow.

 

[eps200]

If I read it correctly that advocates a footway tunnel (subway) under Lime Street rather than a bridge.

I believe a footbridge over Lime Street would be better than a subway. It would offer views (windows), could be at platform level (with gentle ramp if need be) for passenger convenience, and lead into a pleasant airy building on the West side with cafes, shops or other facilities useful to arriving passengers. Much better than a subway which would be better suited to troglodytes than to humans. Not to mention all the complications of tunneling (sewers, cables, and who-knows-what in an old city).

Of course there would also be incorporated a pedestrian route for passengers to easily reach Central Station.

It's a 400m platform a bridge at the west end looking out into the city centre and a tunnel + a secondary entrance onto the streets at the east end could be good. it would need a slope though to work well.

 

[Holly]

It's a 400m platform a bridge at the west end looking out into the city centre and a tunnel + a secondary entrance onto the streets at the east end could be good. it would need a slope though to work well.

What is "a 400m platform a bridge at the west end"?
The referenced document neither describes nor shows in the plans any such bridge that crosses Lime Street. Though it would be good if it did.
If you mean the bridge that takes people North from the HS station to the old station, that is of no help to cross Lime Street.
Whereas it shows a subway to cross Lime Street (bad idea) roughly where a bridge should be.

Perhaps you meant a different document?

 

[Wavertreelad]

I have just posted on the HS2 to Merseyside Thread on Future High Speed Rail forum a post which also relates to this topic.

 

[liverpolitan]

You're not the only one. Merseytravel are looking at it too. Some of these ideas are demonstrated in this document - http://www.liverpoollep.org/PDF/LCR%20position%20on%20HS2.pdf

The connectivity enhancements are very interesting. I like the Liverpool City Region Crossrail solution. However, they don't strengthen Lime Street's connectivity, they weaken it, and Lime Street is where Merseytravel are focussing efforts on a HS2 connection.

Long term network:

Central Liverpool Connectivity:

Table of routes and station connectivity:

Form the table, it can be seen that the Moorfields/Exchange site is much better connected than Lime Street.

 

[pablo]

When you lift stuff out of context, you reach false conclusions.
The first map is far more complex than the second.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The connectivity enhancements are very interesting. I like the Liverpool City Region Crossrail solution. However, they don't strengthen Lime Street's connectivity, they weaken it, and Lime Street is where Merseytravel are focussing efforts on a HS2 connection.

Long term network:

Central Liverpool Connectivity:

Table of routes and station connectivity:

Form the table, it can be seen that the Moorfields/Exchange site is much better connected than Lime Street.

Surely the point here is that we are dealing with two different reports one from Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership (LCRLEP) and one from the 20 More Miles Group (TMMG). What obviously needs to happen is that both parties talk to each other and between them come up with a set of proposals for the region. After looking at the LCRLEP document again it appears to be written in government "speak" almost as a concept document. Interestingly it provides very little detail in terms of the route or options available to join their Lime Street Station to the HS2 network let alone costs. It feels to me that the majority of the report was written by Merseyrail officials with help from Peel for the freight part. The TMMG report by comparison offers far more detail in every respect, and appears to be a more balanced document.

One interesting point that the LCRLEP report does show are the aspirations for the electrification of the Bootle Branch, Kirkby to Wigan, the CLC route to Warrington and the construction of a new connection directly to Liverpool John Lennon Airport. The solution of using both Edge Hill tunnels I have proposed would allow the City Lines to link the Wirral Lines, as well as terminate at Lime Street, or a rebuilt HS2 Exchange Station from the north as well as handle HS2 Captive stock. Rather than weaken Lime Street as a hub, moving City Line services through Central and Moorfields and eventually Exchange would relieve Lime Street of acute capacity restriction in the future and so allow development of more long distance services with connections via the Merseyrail network to more or less every part of the region.

 

[eps200]

Wouldn't the use of both tunnels further choke capacity across the link line?

 

[Wavertreelad]

Wouldn't the use of both tunnels further choke capacity across the link line?

All the official proposals so far have not shown any increase in capacity on this stretch (I assume you mean between Central and Moorfields) although in the LCR proposal there appears to be an upgrade to allow Wirral trains to connect with the City Line. Merseyrail have already said that Central will need rebuilding to cope with passenger levels. It is therefore possible that additions to both train and passenger capacity could be undertaken at the same time.