Edinburgh-London rail journeys "to be cut to 4 hours"

[JonathanH]

I was talking about official connections. I believe that the one off cross platform Thames link./ Lumo was about 50 mins quicker than anything LNER & connections could offer.

Yes, that seems right, as a good amount of additional time is needed to make any connection between Kings Cross and any of St Pancras, Victoria and London Bridge such that Gatwick to Edinburgh under 5 hours 30 minutes afforded by the Stevenage connections isn't possible.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well as far as I'm concerned the North can and absolutely should keep its links and not lose them in favor of yet again promising the world to London to Scotland passengers and then as before failing spectacularly to deliver it, London to Scotland passengers are sick of so-called improvements on this route which gets so frequently bold down in delays and cancellations and infrastructure issues and whilst they might claim that they going after the lucrative air market, those who are already flying will likely stick to it because speaking as one of them myself we know which side our bread is buttered and we also know who looks after us better when the brown stuff hits the spinning things, and it's not the railway.

 

[cambsy]

I think 4hr 04 mins Kings Cross-Edinburg and V V, with York and Newcastle stops will be tight, and hard achieve day in and day out, as the 3hr 59 mins London-Edinburgh Scottish Pullmans, struggled to achieve this regularly, even with 130mph plus on the 225 sets, as they had the legendary, no recovery margin, 1hr 41 mins London-York timing. I used to log runs on these as they were often good for 130mph plus runs, and there are logs of 135mph plus on these services with the 235’s. I’ll definitely be interested to see what the time keeping of the speeded up services is lik.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not sure what the proposals are for Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Chester-le-Street. But on the face of it 6tph York<->Newcastle should give plenty of opportunities to ensure all these stations receive a decent service. 3x LNER, 2x XC, 1x TPE, all the bases are covered, including 2tph Leeds<->Newcastle. Chester-le-Street is the one station at risk of being absolutely screwed over with the changes.

There's been lots of wibble about the loss of the second TPE per hour but, in reality, they always ran right behind each other in both directions anyway. A direct link to Manchester Airport would be nice, but apart from that the extra TPE didn't create that many extra journey opportunities.

North of Newcastle, though, it looks like the same mistakes are being made which were made on the WCML 20 years ago when services at 'smaller' stations were shredded to shave 5-10 minutes off the longer distance journeys. Morpeth is already very poorly served northbound, Alnmouth is just very poorly served in general, and the connections northwards from Berwick into Edinburgh are just as important as those south to Newcastle.

If the reports are true that Berwick will be losing ten services a day to Edinburgh then that really should be sounding alarm bells. It also makes me wonder how it will affect service provision at Reston and East Linton, stations which have just re-opened at great expense.

Outside of the PR fluffery, is there anything concrete to show what service provision will look like on the upper ECML?

 

[A S Leib]

I'm not sure what the proposals are for Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Chester-le-Street. But on the face of it 6tph York<->Newcastle should give plenty of opportunities to ensure all these stations receive a decent service. 3x LNER, 2x XC, 1x TPE, all the bases are covered, including 2tph Leeds<->Newcastle. Chester-le-Street is the one station at risk of being absolutely screwed over with the changes.

There's been lots of wibble about the loss of the second TPE per hour but, in reality, they always ran right behind each other in both directions anyway. A direct link to Manchester Airport would be nice, but apart from that the extra TPE didn't create that many extra journey opportunities.

North of Newcastle, though, it looks like the same mistakes are being made which were made on the WCML 20 years ago when services at 'smaller' stations were shredded to shave 5-10 minutes off the longer distance journeys. Morpeth is already very poorly served northbound, Alnmouth is just very poorly served in general, and the connections northwards from Berwick into Edinburgh are just as important as those south to Newcastle.

If the reports are true that Berwick will be losing ten services a day to Edinburgh then that really should be sounding alarm bells. It also makes me wonder how it will affect service provision at Reston and East Linton, stations which have just re-opened at great expense.

Outside of the PR fluffery, is there anything concrete to show what service provision will look like on the upper ECML?

Is there an argument that with TPE running through to Saltburn and direct (if limited for now) London services and the bihourly Newcastle semifast from Middlesbrough there's less of a need for everything (excluding Lumo and the Flying Scotsman) to call at Darlington? (Although Darlington has 350,000 passengers per year to / from London, Newcastle and Edinburgh against 290,000 for Durham, so maybe that's enough to justify six Newcastle and York services per hour.)

I'm guessing the Scottish government very much wants the ScotRail Dunbar terminators to continue and for the North Berwick services to keep their current frequency; did they ask for the two daily Edinburgh–Berwick short TPE services as well?

Edit: the proposed May 2022 LNER timetable would have been Darlington being served by the Newcastle terminator and 1 tph to Edinburgh, Durham just by the Newcastle terminator, and nothing for Northallerton except Middlesbrough services. Pre-Covid the plan was for only every other Newcastle terminator to serve Durham and for King's Cross –Middlesbrough to be every two hours.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Call my cynical, but on paper I'm sure it will work very well but cue real world issues I see nearly every day such as ARS/DRS conflicts, priority given to 9Jxx/9Sxx at the southern end of the route if you or they are even slightly out of path.

An increasing number of 'Up' 1Txx Kings Lynn-Kings Cross services tend to get put in front at Hitchin south junction despite us on the LNER bearing down on the area at 125mph vs 40mph for the Great Northern train (due to the curve at Cambridge junction.) Highly frustrating to crawl around to a red on the up fast at Hitchin and lose 5-10 minutes as we wait for the 1Txx to pass. What follows is having to run behind it at often no more than 80mph to keep clear of the cautionary signals.

We'll soon watch those 4 hours turn into the 4h20m fast runs they typically run to today. Increasingly cautioned down to red signals at key junctions on a regular basis, then they turn green with the transmission of an 'SG' message despite no sign of a conflicting move anywhere. This is often confirmed when LNER control are notified of the delay.

Fair play to them for trying to improve things, but sadly an increasing number of delays come directly from Network Rail and the two sides don't really talk. We as drivers aren't allowed to challenge the signal box staff and nor would I dare as it doesn't change anything and they can easily pull voice tapes. For the sake of the passengers, I honestly hope it works as advertised!

NR aren't supportive of timetables that don't have sufficient resilience in them these days so doubt we will see the 4hr timings realised and it will be less than 10 mins savings if that.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

When the proposed ECML recast was postponed previously, I think it was May 21 (apologies if wrong), there were proposals for later connectivity from the likes of Newcastle onto the branch lines at much later times on a weekend than currently.

Does anyone know if this will still be the case? A later train on the Tyne Valley to Carlisle for example would be much better than the current last services!

 

[rapmastaj]

Great. Let's reduce regional connectivity across the North and drastically worsen the quality of service at important stations like Berwick, just to cut a few minutes off Edinburgh-London journeys and perhaps reach an ego-boosting sub-4hr threshold. This sounds like everything that is wrong with the railway industry.

 

[BrianW]

Great. Let's reduce regional connectivity across the North and drastically worsen the quality of service at important stations like Berwick, just to cut a few minutes off Edinburgh-London journeys and perhaps reach an ego-boosting sub-4hr threshold. This sounds like everything that is wrong with the railway industry.

Sounds right to me- sorry. Choices have to be made by 'ego-boosting' timetable planners. Every 'station-stop' or journey facilitated adds time to many. I think evidence suggests that 'beating' time thresholds brings in business. 'Back in the day' it was about mile-a minute trains, named trains, non-stop expresses, catering etc. I find it hard to imagine trains full of passengers travelling non-stop London- Edinburgh, hence considerations of the needs of York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Berwick, let alone Stevenage, Peterboro, ... etc. Does the current PM use Northallerton or Thirsk?

 

[sjm77]

Does the current PM use Northallerton or Thirsk?

Probably neither given his preference for flying everywhere.

 

[800001]

Probably neither given his preference for flying everywhere.

He is frequently seen on LNER trains travelling north on a Friday , and returning south on Sundays

 

[CarrotPie]

He is frequently seen on LNER trains travelling north on a Friday , and returning south on Sundays

Do you have a source?

 

[800001]

Do you have a source?

My eyes!
Although you won’t get near him as protection officers stand at the gangway door preventing anyone gaining access to the area he is sat in.
Also boards the train within the last few minutes of departure so will not be seen by many people.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My eyes!
Although you won’t get near him as protection officers stand at the gangway door preventing anyone gaining access to the area he is sat in.
Also boards the train within the last few minutes of departure so will not be seen by many people.

I hope they don't block off the whole carriage. The Friday evening downs are busy enough.

 

[FenMan]

My eyes!
Although you won’t get near him as protection officers stand at the gangway door preventing anyone gaining access to the area he is sat in.
Also boards the train within the last few minutes of departure so will not be seen by many people.

Sunak's normal enthusiasm for flying everywhere may be tempered by the permissible expenses that MPs can claim when travelling between Westminster and their constituencies. I very much doubt use of a UKGov-funded helicopter or, indeed, hiring one privately could be expensed in this way as neither would fall into any of the following categories:- "public transport, mileage, car hire or taxi costs"*

*Source: https://www.theipsa.org.uk/news/a-guide-to-mps-claims

 

[CarrotPie]

Sunak's normal enthusiasm for flying everywhere may be tempered by the permissible expenses that MPs can claim when travelling between Westminster and their constituencies. I very much doubt use of a UKGov-funded helicopter or, indeed, hiring one privately could be expensed in this way as neither would fall into any of the following categories:- "public transport, mileage, car hire or taxi costs"*

*Source: https://www.theipsa.org.uk/news/a-guide-to-mps-claims

Ah! So that's the reason for it.

 

[800Travel]

My eyes!
Although you won’t get near him as protection officers stand at the gangway door preventing anyone gaining access to the area he is sat in.
Also boards the train within the last few minutes of departure so will not be seen by many people.

I hope they don't block off the whole carriage. The Friday evening downs are busy enough.

Do they kick out people who are already in the coach? Wonder what would happen in these situations, or if someone with a reservation in the carriage turned up.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do they kick out people who are already in the coach? Wonder what would happen in these situations, or if someone with a reservation in the carriage turned up.

Usual practice is for staff to prevent passenegrs boarding to the area in question right from when the service is available.

 

[Buzby]

Just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but wasn’ t the West Coast route always faster than the east? I recall when electrification of the WCML was completed it was always faster to Euston than EDI-KX.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but wasn’ t the West Coast route always faster than the east? I recall when electrification of the WCML was completed it was always faster to Euston than EDI-KX.

Not for the last 45 years.

 

[dk1]

Just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but wasn’ t the West Coast route always faster than the east? I recall when electrification of the WCML was completed it was always faster to Euston than EDI-KX.

I don’t think so

 

[Buzby]

Not for the last 45 years.

That’s when I was commuting on it (up to 1985) ECML just wasn’t practicable. So what changed apart from privatisation? Lack of investment in WCML? I recall it was 3hrs 29m then so why the ‘4hrs’ excitement in the east?

 

[JonathanH]

I recall it was 3hrs 29m then so why the ‘4hrs’ excitement in the east?

What was 3h 29m?

 

[Buzby]

What was 3h 29m?

Glasgow to Euston (as mentioned in Msg #49)

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s when I was commuting on it (up to 1985) ECML just wasn’t practicable. So what changed apart from privatisation? Lack of investment in WCML? I recall it was 3hrs 29m then so why the ‘4hrs’ excitement in the east?

It has never been timetabled 3h29 on the ECML or WCML.

 

[Buzby]

It has never been timetabled 3h29 on the ECML or WCML

2 trains daily Mon-Fri only stopped once. I stopped commuting in 1985. So what do you believe the timetable stated?

 

[wilbers]

Glasgow to Euston (as mentioned in Msg #49)

No it wasn't

Record Run | Avanti West Coast

Avanti take part in the Record Run attempt as part of the railway history month

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Fastest was 3hours c.53 minutes, and not in normal passenger service either.

 

[Buzby]

So - Glasgow to Euston was under 4hrs previously - and faster than the ECML. With the excitement of ECML supposedly ‘reaching’ 4hr means that they are slowly getting there - wouldn’t you agree? I must have done the WC 150 times on both standard and APT sets and it was always seen as the the flagship route (even when adding in a trip to Queen Street and an Inter-City to Waverley).

If you believe WCML is the poor relation, I’d be interested to know why?

 

[RailWonderer]

On the same topic has there ever been a record ECML run like the WCML has been in the past? The ECML is straighter and has always been faster London - Edinburgh.

 

[sjm77]

That’s when I was commuting on it (up to 1985) ECML just wasn’t practicable. So what changed apart from privatisation? Lack of investment in WCML? I recall it was 3hrs 29m then so why the ‘4hrs’ excitement in the east?

Sorry but that is wrong. There were a couple of APT special runs in sub 4 hours but that is all. During 1980s/90s the regular stock (class 90 + Mk3) did the journey in just over 5 hours from London to Glasgow (The Royal Scot was maybe the only sub 5hour timing). HSTs were running Kings Cross - Edinburgh in 4.5 hours. The only time the WCML would have offered quicker routings was during the closures associated with the ECML electrification. I do remember some weekends Edinburgh - Kings Cross services were diverted South of York onto the MML and into St.Pancras. This extended journeys by one hour.