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Edinburgh Tram developments

Boff

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Out of curiosity, what would be a suitable service pattern be for the extension?

The proposal talks mostly about a North-South route, so I'd assume Granton - Bioquarter would be the obvious route, but is there enough demand for a Bioquarter - Airport/Newhaven or Granton-Newhaven service?
 
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takno

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Out of curiosity, what would be a suitable service pattern be for the extension?

The proposal talks mostly about a North-South route, so I'd assume Granton - Bioquarter would be the obvious route, but is there enough demand for a Bioquarter - Airport/Newhaven or Granton-Newhaven service?
I'd have thought alternating them would be a reasonable option, but they didn't seem to have given much thought to that. It might start to get quite cozy at the princes street stop of everybody is expected to change for all directions.
 
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Leith
Out of curiosity, what would be a suitable service pattern be for the extension?

The proposal talks mostly about a North-South route, so I'd assume Granton - Bioquarter would be the obvious route, but is there enough demand for a Bioquarter - Airport/Newhaven or Granton-Newhaven service?
The consultants' report included in the City Council report mentioned earlier (link repeated below) recommends provision for Bioquarter-Newhaven services via a delta junction at the St Andrews St - Princes St junction (section 3.3.1, p10). If there is any consideration of operating Bioquarter-Airport services I haven't found it yet

 

Mal

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The consultants' report included in the City Council report mentioned earlier (link repeated below) recommends provision for Bioquarter-Newhaven services via a delta junction at the St Andrews St - Princes St junction (section 3.3.1, p10). If there is any consideration of operating Bioquarter-Airport services I haven't found it yet

Just as a matter of interest, does anyone have a reasonable guess as to how long it would take to install this(or any) delta junction? Not to mention the interruption to tram services and disruption in Princes Street (again!)
 

och aye

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Rennes says hi. There are plenty of cities smaller than Edinburgh with underground routes, especially trams/stadtbahn type lines in Germany
Do those cities have underground Vaults that haven't been explored for decades? Also you'd need pretty deep tunnels to go below Waverley valley and into Leith and South Bridge respectively I would have thought!
 

stuu

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Do those cities have underground Vaults that haven't been explored for decades? Also you'd need pretty deep tunnels to go below Waverley valley and into Leith and South Bridge respectively I would have thought!
Yes it would be tricky, but the point was more about Edinburgh being too small for tunneling, when it is actually a lot bigger than many other cities which have built tunnels... besides, the 1990ish iteration included a north-south tunnel, so something must have been at least possible on paper (or the consultants had never been there)
 

zwk500

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Yes it would be tricky, but the point was more about Edinburgh being too small for tunneling, when it is actually a lot bigger than many other cities which have built tunnels... besides, the 1990ish iteration included a north-south tunnel, so something must have been at least possible on paper (or the consultants had never been there)
There's very little that is technically impossible in engineering. Paying for it, though, is another matter. Although I'd be interested to know how detailed those designs got, and what depth the city-centre stations were proposed to be at.
 

takno

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There's very little that is technically impossible in engineering. Paying for it, though, is another matter. Although I'd be interested to know how detailed those designs got, and what depth the city-centre stations were proposed to be at.
I don't think you need a very impressive depth. For esst-wesr you'd really just want to cut and cover down the existing route from Haymarket, but heading down under Leith st and popping up at Picardy place. Given the amount of meds and drama they made of digging up this section anyway it's possible that the costs wouldn't be so dramatically highrr5.

For the route to the south you could probably either go under the mound, rising more slowly but still passing over the railway (appreciate this might chop some underground vaults off the national gallery), under the royal mile, and rising up onto George IV before it crosses Cowgate. It's possibly significantly more expensive for that route, but makes a lot less compromises on walkability and ongoing public transport for the vast majority of people who won't be within achievable walking distance of tram stop
 

The exile

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I have zero objections to the city being an LTN. The problem is that the old town is also a complex warren of relatively narrow streets serving tall buildings with often only a single entrance, whilst filled to the brim with pedestrians, and South Bridge is a fine example of this. low-traffic is not no-traffic, and tram lines are inherently more limited when somebody is, for example, trying to put up scaffolding. The service is going to end up falling apart regularly.
Makes you wonder how on earth places like Amsterdam, Prague et al cope.
 

takno

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Makes you wonder how on earth places like Amsterdam, Prague et al cope.
Mostly being larger and more spread out, but also by having a more effective grid with multiple routes in any given direction. They also don't run the tram down narrower streets or down the streets where there are only front entrances, and in the case of Amsterdam at least by running significant chunks of the route as single line with passing places at stations.

The trams in both cities in any case function far more like buses than what is being proposed for Edinburgh, smaller, lighter and more nimble around corners and up inclines, with extremely regular stops and with a fair number of possible routes for diversions. Same with Oslo and most other European cities I can think of off-hand. Apart from the word tram I'd say there's worryingly little in common between our notions of street-based rapid transit and most tram networks in historical European cities.
 

endecotp

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For the route to the south you could probably either go under the mound, rising more slowly but still passing over the railway (appreciate this might chop some underground vaults off the national gallery), under the royal mile, and rising up onto George IV before it crosses Cowgate.

That requires a rising gradient of something like 1 in 20.
 

zwk500

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That shouldn't be a problem for trams, unless, as discussed above, it includes tight curves.
The bigger problem will be designing the road for the pop-up, there's not a lot of width for 2 traffic lanes, 2 tram tracks, and the tunnel walls.
 

takno

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The bigger problem will be designing the road for the pop-up, there's not a lot of width for 2 traffic lanes, 2 tram tracks, and the tunnel walls.
I'm not sure this idea bears a lot of analysis tbh. My point was more that as an underground you would do cut and cover through the new town and then aim to be above ground as much as possible elsewhere. It's all entirely academic as we have the trams we do now, and nobody is going to spend the money burying them
 

NotATrainspott

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Burying trams underground really doesn't make a lot of sense until there are so many trams and so many pedestrians sharing the streets that it stops working. I think that's the situation that Karlsruhe got into when it recently decided to tunnel under the Kaiserstrasse. Until then it's generally cheaper and more effective to keep moving other traffic away. Even things like investing in those iceberg-style underground bins that don't need emptied very often can reduce traffic.
 
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Burying trams underground really doesn't make a lot of sense until there are so many trams and so many pedestrians sharing the streets that it stops working. I think that's the situation that Karlsruhe got into when it recently decided to tunnel under the Kaiserstrasse. Until then it's generally cheaper and more effective to keep moving other traffic away. Even things like investing in those iceberg-style underground bins that don't need emptied very often can reduce traffic.
Moving other traffic away isn't popular with those whose travel can't easily be done by tram. Edinburgh has already displaced much traffic along its single tram line between Haymarket and Picardy Place. Apparently the next step is to move many bus routes away from the city centre. This section appeared difficult to lay in the first place and seems to need frequent maintenance. It only has three or four stops, so you wonder if going underground might not have been such a bad idea. Obviously too late now though.
 

NotATrainspott

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Moving other traffic away isn't popular with those whose travel can't easily be done by tram. Edinburgh has already displaced much traffic along its single tram line between Haymarket and Picardy Place. Apparently the next step is to move many bus routes away from the city centre. This section appeared difficult to lay in the first place and seems to need frequent maintenance. It only has three or four stops, so you wonder if going underground might not have been such a bad idea. Obviously too late now though.

The solution is more trams. There aren't that many route corridors in the city which couldn't justify trams in the long term. In the end, buses aren't that space efficient once you have a lot of them. London buses only work because they pick up some of the design features of trams, with multiple doors and a bias to standing passengers.

If you take a step back you'll see that these changes are unpopular mostly with pensioners, who would rather have a slow and meandering bus that takes them door to door with a seat all the way than a faster and more efficient tram that requires a bit more walking and possibly even standing but much reduced journey times. Designing the public transport network for the benefit of people who do not work, such that people who do work are disadvantaged, is not a good idea. In the end it's the people working who pay for the pensioners to survive, so at some level they need to learn to put up and shut up. This applies across quite a wide range of problems in this country.
 

takno

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The solution is more trams. There aren't that many route corridors in the city which couldn't justify trams in the long term. In the end, buses aren't that space efficient once you have a lot of them. London buses only work because they pick up some of the design features of trams, with multiple doors and a bias to standing passengers.

If you take a step back you'll see that these changes are unpopular mostly with pensioners, who would rather have a slow and meandering bus that takes them door to door with a seat all the way than a faster and more efficient tram that requires a bit more walking and possibly even standing but much reduced journey times. Designing the public transport network for the benefit of people who do not work, such that people who do work are disadvantaged, is not a good idea. In the end it's the people working who pay for the pensioners to survive, so at some level they need to learn to put up and shut up. This applies across quite a wide range of problems in this country.
What a strange and spite-filled view of urban transportation. In common with a lot of people I mostly take the bus when the weather is bad. An extra 5 minutes walk uphill from the bus stop to the nearest tram stop isn't going to cut it. For the many people who can't do that extra walk at all it's completely useless, but you think they don't matter because (you assume) they aren't productive members of society.

Just awful
 

NotATrainspott

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What a strange and spite-filled view of urban transportation. In common with a lot of people I mostly take the bus when the weather is bad. An extra 5 minutes walk uphill from the bus stop to the nearest tram stop isn't going to cut it. For the many people who can't do that extra walk at all it's completely useless, but you think they don't matter because (you assume) they aren't productive members of society.

Just awful

If you're mostly using the bus when it's raining then I can assume you would otherwise walk or cycle, and that's good! As a cyclist or pedestrian you have exactly the right incentive structure for the city to thrive. Density and high quality urban environments make life as a cyclist or pedestrian pleasant.

Cyclists and pedestrians are not, however, the main group of people that we need to worry about when designing the transport network. Instead we need to design something that can compete with the private car, which people will use regardless of the weather. While a door to door experience is generally a hallmark of private motoring, for journeys into the city centre it's cost and overall journey time which really make the difference. Public transport, by virtue of being higher density, can justify bus lanes and other things that allow it to bypass inevitable traffic congestion during peak hours. This means that it has a good chance of being faster than the car when most people are travelling. And, when people travel into the city, most people are headed to a small number of high-profile destinations like shopping areas. Private car use falls down a bit here, as parking becomes expensive and/or in short supply, while public transport can get you right to where you need to go. Even somewhere like Fort Kinnaird, the average distance from each shop to your parked car isn't that different to the average distance to the bus stop, so unless you're driving from one shop to another it isn't really any worse for walking distances.

If you design for pensioners and other people who want to absolutely minimise walking distances, at the expense of overall speed and indeed efficiency (how many buses and drivers do you need to move 1000 passengers an hour?), then you make public transport fare worse against private cars. If the bus stops every few hundred metres, then it can never build up speed against other traffic even if it has a bus lane. Stopping more often in the busy city centre can really slow down cross-city journeys, as every bus will then have to compete for stopping space. Meeting passenger demand for more seated spaces means not being able to have more doors to speed up boarding and unloading; they hate the idea of the second door on the 400XLBs because it's further from the kerb and the bus can't crouch down so much.

The end result of essentially pandering to pensioners when designing a bus network is a bus network that isn't actually sustainable. Pensioners, by virtue of having free bus passes, are totally immune to the costs of all of the inefficiencies they want. It doesn't matter that the bus company now needs to spend 30% more on drivers and buses and so fares go up by 30%, because they're free. That is, until the government (the ones actually paying for their fares) notice that it's a bad use of money, and route subsidises get cut back. So, rather than getting the perfect bus network they've always dreamed of, they get nothing. Not even the marginally unsuitable bus service they had before, but nothing. If they don't want services to be cut back because of the inefficiencies they introduce, then someone is going to need to spend more in taxes for it. If pensioners would go up in arms about the idea of paying only even a little bit each year for a bus pass, then why do you think they'd be willing to pay? No, it would all be paid for by the people who are currently working, who then don't benefit much at all from any of the bus service they created. If it takes 2 hours rather than 30 mins to get to the hospital because no one can possibly ever under any circumstances be expected to walk 300m to the nearest main road, then that bus won't do any good for the nurse needing to get home after a 2am shift change.

In the end the way we tell how useful something is economically is by how much and how many people are willing to pay for it. If a pensioner-friendly bus service is really that good, then changing the network to suit them would result in more revenue. Of course, that really just means more pensioners using it, given that the fares are paid by government. Would the government pay more for pensioners to get somewhere in 30 mins rather than 1 hour? No. Are pensioners time-sensitive, so that many more of them will travel only because it's 30 mins rather than 1 hour journey time? Not really - they don't work any more, so their time is inherently less valuable. But all the people choosing whether to pay for their season ticket or sign up for that shiny PCP deal on a new Corsa will be thinking about this. Give them a better bus service and they will come, because they just want to be able to get to work as quickly and cheaply as possible. If changing the bus network to suit them is really causing that many problems, then we'd see the revenue from pensioner fares dropping by more than the increase in fares by working people, and we'd know we need to change.

Getting rid of car journeys by working people would make the city work so much more effectively that you could then have a better shot of affording better solutions for the people who really do need those door-to-door journeys. Maybe the solution for mobility-restricted people making awkward journeys is just to pay for taxis to take them whenever they're not able to use the high frequency bus/tram (you'd end up building level boarding and plenty of wheelchair movement space to improve dwell times for everyone anyway) network. That's not an option today for most people.
 

oldman

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If the bus stops every few hundred metres, then it can never build up speed against other traffic even if it has a bus lane.
How far apart do you want stops to be? Current City Council guidance is 400 meters but maybe closer 'to meet special needs (e.g. sheltered housing complex)'.
Fort Kinnaird, the average distance from each shop to your parked car isn't that different to the average distance to the bus stop
One reason people go to FK is to buy things which they want to transport home. I doubt they will choose to stand in a tram, or more likely two trams, followed by a half-mile walk to get home.

More trams may be a good thing, but they take a very long time to build, and grand designs can be a distraction. The focus should be on incremental improvement in the existing bus service through enhanced bus priority (and enforcement), which can produce a virtuous circle of increased passenger numbers leading to improved services.
 

NotATrainspott

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Today's pensioners spent 40 (or more) years working, in part to support those who were retired then, so deserve exactly the same (or more due to age and infirmity) consideration as the workers.

These sorts of arguments are essentially irrelevant. All pensioners today are supported by the people working today. There is nothing else. Individually there can be factors like how much people save and so how much of a retirement they can expect, but in aggregate all that matters is the dependency ratio (workers to retired people) and how productive each worker is. The only way that saving for retirement works in practice is that those savings go into investments in the real economy to improve efficiency and make higher dependency ratios more feasible. The reward for retirees today having paid into pensions 40 years ago is that those 40 years of savings helped farmers buy new tractors and equipment so that one farmer can produce 10,000 tons of grain a year rather than just 1000. Had they consumed the money instead on holidays etc, the farmer would still only be able to produce 1000 tons of grain and so you'd need a lot more people working on farms in order to feed everyone every day. That would in turn manifest itself as a higher retirement age. In poorer countries, people genuinely do just keep working until they die, even in their 70s and 80s. Retirement as a concept is an artificial invention of the industrial revolution and it would serve a lot of people very well to keep that in mind when they make political decisions.

Our transport networks have a direct effect on the efficiency of our economy in numerous ways. One example of a job that will be increasingly in demand with an older population is a care worker. Care workers need to be able to get from one client to another if they aren't dedicated to just one. Having a dedicated care worker might be nice but it is going to be pretty expensive, as each person working in care isn't otherwise able to work in the rest of the economy. Even if they aren't very productive, we won't be able to pay them less than Tesco does because they'd just go and work for Tesco instead. Maximising their productivity is therefore critical for us to be able to provide affordable care to those who need it. How do the transport networks affect that productivity? The easier and faster it is for a care worker to travel across the city, the more time in their day can be spent actually delivering care rather than travelling. Faster commutes mean a larger pool of workers and clients can reach one another, leading to improved competition, improved quality and reduced costs. If the transport networks are designed for retired people who are by definition not time sensitive, then it will be less well designed for the people working to support them. The result of that is just that less care will be available, at a higher price.

This is not about punishing pensioners for anything. It is just about understanding the fundamental economics at play, which will always rear their ugly head in the end even if you want to pretend they don't apply. If we don't make clear-headed decisions about priorities then we will end up making bad policy choices which don't actually help anyone in the end. If we make good policy choices, even if they initially seem unpopular, then it will result in good overall outcomes for everyone. It isn't possible to keep one group of people happy at the expense of another for very long. The extreme electoral re-alignment we are seeing now, where all private renters and people with mortgages now plan to vote Labour and those living without mortgages (or, to a lesser extent, those in social housing) are still voting Conservative is testament to that. Unassailable electoral coalitions will come crashing down as soon as economic reality rears its ugly head, as it did with interest rates building on top of our extreme housing shortage and dependence on imported natural gas.
 

oldman

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The idea that the present network is 'designed for pensioners' is false. It is designed for people, including middle-aged people, less mobile people and people with young children, as well as young, fit people (who should be on their bikes by the way). People quite like direct buses, they quite like sitting down on their journey. It's irrational and goes against your inexorable economic logic, but there it is.

If we take the care workers, those who visit clients in their homes often drive to maximise the number of calls they make - this makes them more efficient. They are not going to want to walk half a mile from one job to a bus stop then stand on a high-speed (or slightly less slow) bus then walk another half a mile to their next job. Getting commuters on to better public transport is a good thing, for peripatetic workers it is not a solution to anything.

I have a good memory and I recall that you once said (May 2022) 'Edinburgh has an excellent bus service'. What happened?
 

NotATrainspott

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The idea that the present network is 'designed for pensioners' is false. It is designed for people, including middle-aged people, less mobile people and people with young children, as well as young, fit people (who should be on their bikes by the way). People quite like direct buses, they quite like sitting down on their journey. It's irrational and goes against your inexorable economic logic, but there it is.

If we take the care workers, those who visit clients in their homes often drive to maximise the number of calls they make - this makes them more efficient. They are not going to want to walk half a mile from one job to a bus stop then stand on a high-speed (or slightly less slow) bus then walk another half a mile to their next job. Getting commuters on to better public transport is a good thing, for peripatetic workers it is not a solution to anything.

I have a good memory and I recall that you once said (May 2022) 'Edinburgh has an excellent bus service'. What happened?

Edinburgh does have a good bus service, compared to other non-London cities in the UK. My point is that if we focus too much on relatively shallow passenger complaints, we'll end up optimising the network the wrong way. The reaction to the 400XLBs with their second set of doors is one small example of this. As we develop the tram network, we are going to need to make fairly major decisions. Switching core city centre routes to tram only might upset people who want a direct bus service, but it can be in the service of an overall more efficient network which makes most journeys for most people a lot faster and more convenient. E.g. is it better to walk a few minutes to a tram stop where there's 24tph through the city centre and then another few minutes at the other end, or to have a whole lot of 4tph meandering stopping routes that might reduce the walking distance but at the cost of reduced frequency and slower journeys?
 

oldman

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I don't think anyone would argue that a bus network should not adapt to the introduction of a tram network, but that is a long way from saying that the present service is designed for pensioners and, by implication, not for workers or students.

If you take the Oxgangs area (fairly high density, built as a council scheme). Currently there are 4 routes to the city centre - Slateford/Haymarket, Craiglockhart/Old Town, Morningside/West End, Morningside/South side. Post-Covid, three are 3ph, one is 5ph. Maybe the service to the heart of the city centre would be better concentrated on fewer routes, but they provide links to different areas inbetween (including workplaces, schools and colleges), which might otherwise need a journey into the centre and out again. Concentrating on one route would be good for some, not for others.

As it happens the most direct route goes mainly through leafy suburbs and a more meandering route would be better for a tram.

The challenge for any public transport network in Edinburgh is achieving a reasonable speed. The problem is not frequency of stops, it is other road users, parked cars and endless traffic lights. Tackle those and you could improve the bus service in the here and now, rather than wait for trams in a few decades time, by which time today's transport planners will be pensioners themselves.
 

David M

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Re 'pensioners' - unless things have changed, the concessionary travel card isn't accepted on the trams.
 

enginedin

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Re 'pensioners' - unless things have changed, the concessionary travel card isn't accepted on the trams.
not quite true - they're free for Edinburgh-issued Entitlement Cards:

| If you have a Scottish National Entitlement Card (also known as a Saltire card) issued by the City of Edinburgh Council, you are entitled to free travel on the tram. The same applies to cards from any local authority indicating visual impairment. However cards issued by other local authorities are not valid on the tram.

(https://edinburghtrams.com/node/49)
 

takno

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Indeed, it is after all Edinburgh so 'you'll have had your tea'......
Whilst I'd love to say damn right, I seem to remember that this was because the Scottish Government declined to pay for it on the same basis as they do for buses. Can't remember whether that related to subsidizing a publicly owned company, or them being cheap and assuming that the council would blink first
 

oldman

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Whilst I'd love to say damn right, I seem to remember that this was because the Scottish Government declined to pay for it on the same basis as they do for buses. Can't remember whether that related to subsidizing a publicly owned company, or them being cheap and assuming that the council would blink first
It would have set a precedent for the Glasgow subway.
 

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