Electric Buses - are they safe?

[Peter Sarf]

I am not thinking about the technology as such but more about their use.

I have for a while noticed how much higher the rate of acceleration is of an electric bus. This is compounded by the instant acceleration - it does not build up gradually. Further more there is no initial noise or shaking that you get with a diesel bus as it goes into drive/gear. What this results in with electric busses is no warning to passengers as to when the bus is about to move off and the movement is instantly harsh acceleration. I have been noticing passengers more often rushing to grab passing handrails and myself have been caught by surprise.

It is rare for the bus driver to wait until everyone has arrived at a seat or finished getting to a secure standing space.

I had started considering, reluctantly, that I should consider avoiding the upper deck because it takes longer to get to a seat and involved the stairs !. Although I am 64 I am agile but at my age a fall is more likely to result in a broken bone (brittle with age) and involves a longer recovery time.

Anyway yesterday evening the proof came home to me. I had got on the bus at my local stop to go out and was was nearly at the top of the stairs when the bus lurched into action. Both feet and my left hand were attached to the bus but as I reached further up the handrail with my right hand was the time it jumped away from my reach !. My right foot seemed to slip off the step as I spun round on my left arm. I managed to find a lower step with my right leg but did it so quickly I wrecked my calf muscle. By then the handrail for my right hand was within reach. Obviously I was was moving quickly to avoid breaking my neck at the bottom of the stairs. Now not able to walk - I managed to get off where I was meeting my friends and cadge a lift back home.

Ignoring the moan. And perhaps the driver was over eager and/or supposed to check everyone is safely in position - especially NOT on the stairs. My main thought is that the acceleration needs to be less aggressive. Now I believe these electric busses are controlled electronically. So could the initial demand from the accelerator pedal be moderated. Maybe a little jerk or just gentle acceleration before the full capabilities of the acceleration kick in. A few seconds initial clue to passengers would help one brace ones self.

Otherwise I have to assume I must clutter up the lower deck. Really I think this is the case for many. Even staying on the lower deck is a tricky especially if standing.

We have to put up with alarms for doors on busses and trains but I don't think they are as dangerous as a fall down the stairs - especially backwards with a wall at the bottom. It occurs to me that if these electric busses were a fairground ride the rules would be a lot tighter. I get fed up with rules but I can see these electric busses are lethal.

I have never found the diesel busses so challenging and tend to choose them where I can.

Thoughts.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Maybe a little jerk or just gentle acceleration before the full capabilities of the acceleration kick in. A few seconds initial clue to passengers would help one brace ones self.

The much ridiculed TfL announcement "Please hold on, the bus is about to move" springs to mind.

 

[sprunt]

The much ridiculed TfL announcement "Please hold on, the bus is about to move" springs to mind.

The main reason that was ridiculed was because it was generally played when the bus was already moving.

 

[Buzby]

The high initial torque from the motor is one of the benefits of electric driving - but I have to say that I always make sure I’m holding on to something irrespective of the method of traction, because if I’m not seated safely I’ll be at risk. As for expecting the driver to wait until I’m fully seated is a nice courtesy, but cannot be relied upon. First have designed wallet cards to display to the driver which says you’ll need time to enter and exit. Whether anyone uses the to good effect - I’ve no idea!

 

[Harpers Tate]

Accepting the fact that, in the case described, this was a double decker and the OP was partway up the stairs, otherwise - in this respect is an electric bus different to a tram? Were (are) trolleybuses different?

 

[Peter Sarf]

The much ridiculed TfL announcement "Please hold on, the bus is about to move" springs to mind.

+

The main reason that was ridiculed was because it was generally played when the bus was already moving.

Indeed, I don't think I have ever heard that announcement BEFORE the bus has started moving !.

The high initial torque from the motor is one of the benefits of electric driving - but I have to say that I always make sure I’m holding on to something irrespective of the method of traction, because if I’m not seated safely I’ll be at risk. As for expecting the driver to wait until I’m fully seated is a nice courtesy, but cannot be relied upon. First have designed wallet cards to display to the driver which says you’ll need time to enter and exit. Whether anyone uses the to good effect - I’ve no idea!

Its a difficult call because it really means passengers should stop moving and sit or hold on as soon as they realise the last person has got on. That would explain why I notice how many busses I use can be rammed with standing passengers towards the front with seats available upstairs and at the rear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd think an electric bus's software could be set up so it doesn't start with a massive lurch despite many bus drivers suffering from "binary right foot". Unlike older ones, modern electric trains tend to start very smoothly even if they accelerate very quickly.

 

[Lucan]

I am amazed that the motor control system of an electric bus does not limit the acceleration to a sensible value, and also limit the rate of increase of the acceleration which is known in dynamics as the "jerk". I believe it is done on electric trains.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

The main reason that was ridiculed was because it was generally played when the bus was already moving.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Just for clarification, my post wasn't a dig at the need for a cue the bus is about to move - merely just a tongue-in-cheek comment.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You'd think an EV bus's software could be set up so it doesn't start with a massive lurch despite most bus drivers suffering from "binary right foot". Unlike older ones, modern EMUs tend to start very smoothly even if they accelerate very quickly.

This is my hope, it is that instant full on acceleration that is the danger - lurch is a good description. It happens after every bus stop whereas an emergency stop, which is of similar veracity, only happens very rarely. It would be a challenge for drivers to limit acceleration when they are seated securely and how can they monitor the contents of the whole bus ?. So I hope software is the answer - currently acceleration is too brutal.

 

[Towers]

“DriveGreen”, “Green Road” and so on are a help here; these sort of systems measure the G forces applied to the vehicle during the course of the journey and so rate the driving accordingly. Heavy footed drivers will achieve concerning scores!

This is my hope, it is that instant full on acceleration that is the danger - lurch is a good description. It happens after every bus stop whereas an emergency stop, which is of similar veracity, only happens very rarely. It would be a challenge for drivers to limit acceleration when they are seated securely and how can they monitor the contents of the whole bus ?. So I hope software is the answer - currently acceleration is too brutal.

 

[Busaholic]

Accepting the fact that, in the case described, this was a double decker and the OP was partway up the stairs, otherwise - in this respect is an electric bus different to a tram? Were (are) trolleybuses different?

I have distinct memories of my few trips on London double deck trolleybuses that ascending or descending the stairs had to be approached more carefulliy than on a bus. I was eleven or twelve at the time.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

All the above chat wants me to consider why the driver may be feeling a strong urge to plant his foot quickly?

A lack of Time? Stress?

I know that on diesel buses where their acceleration rate can be reduced through software, this can actual make a driver less patient therefore overall making drivers most enthusiastic about carrying more pace around with them but this induces them to be heavier on the brakes as a result.

Electric buses can have their acceleration rate altered in a similar fashion which would make the vehicle most sedate to move off, not something I recommend as often that mean like I’ve mentioned above.

A drivers perspective of how quickly a bus moves off isn’t the same as that of a passenger.

 

[Eyersey468]

“DriveGreen”, “Green Road” and so on are a help here; these sort of systems measure the G forces applied to the vehicle during the course of the journey and so rate the driving accordingly. Heavy footed drivers will achieve concerning scores!

Going off topic here but to be honest in my experience Greenroad isn't a particularly good system as there isn't the consistency there needs to be between vehicles, one bus it will stay green no matter what and another it flashes over the slightest tiny thing

 

[Towers]

Going off topic here but to be honest in my experience Greenroad isn't a particularly good system as there isn't the consistency there needs to be between vehicles, one bus it will stay green no matter what and another it flashes over the slightest tiny thing

Not suggesting for a moment that it’s ideal, but I guess if nothing else it could provide some data to investigate the extent of any problem here? This is also an issue on a lot of newish electric trains, drivers chuck the brakes and throttle about like it’s an on/off switch and it can be pretty uncomfortable for those on board. In both bus & rail cases I do wonder if driver training needs to include a greater focus on the effects of aggressive power & brake use for passengers; let the drivers ride on the cushions and experience it for themselves!

 

[Peter Sarf]

All the above chat wants me to consider why the driver may be feeling a strong urge to plant his foot quickly?

A lack of Time? Stress?

I know that on diesel buses where their acceleration rate can be reduced through software, this can actual make a driver less patient therefore overall making drivers most enthusiastic about carrying more pace around with them but this induces them to be heavier on the brakes as a result.

Electric buses can have their acceleration rate altered in a similar fashion which would make the vehicle most sedate to move off, not something I recommend as often that mean like I’ve mentioned above.

A drivers perspective of how quickly a bus moves off isn’t the same as that of a passenger.

As a car driver I try to be aware of my experiences as a passenger. I always eased my acceleration but I am now more careful by looking at my instant fuel consumption !.

Not suggesting for a moment that it’s ideal, but I guess if nothing else it could provide some data to investigate the extent of any problem here? This is also an issue on a lot of newish electric trains, drivers chuck the brakes and throttle about like it’s an on/off switch and it can be pretty uncomfortable for those on board. In both bus & rail cases I do wonder if driver training needs to include a greater focus on the effects of aggressive power & brake use for passengers; let the drivers ride on the cushions and experience it for themselves!

Yes - It is definitely true that the driver feels the acceleration, braking and swerving less. As the driver you know what is coming and your guaranteed to be in a seat anyway - perhaps some bus drivers should try driving standing ?.

There are different types of bus drivers just as there are different types of humans. I know of a feature running in one family where the car driver has to be accelerating or braking. I am not exaggerating. What could be a constant speed on the motorway is achieved by continuously pumping the accelerator pedal. An elder member often throws a sharp use of the brake in - its alarming and exhausting. I always volunteer to drive.

So the point is there are different types of driver. With electric busses I wonder if it is easy to use the accelerator or is it a rather on/off beast. I certainly think it need moderating electronically at start off.

Comparison to trams. I have not found trams to have such aggressive initial acceleration (Mainly Croydon). Being steel wheel on steel rail I suspect the grip is not enough to provide such an initial burst of acceleration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the point is there are different types of driver. With electric busses I wonder if it is easy to use the accelerator or is it a rather on/off beast. I certainly think it need moderating electronically at start off.

With a diesel bus there's some natural moderation in that you won't get as much acceleration until the turbocharger has spun up, though how much difference that makes depends on the engine. Replicating that in software so the rate of change of acceleration (that's what jolts, as someone else above said) is managed on an EV makes a lot of sense.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

With a diesel bus there's some natural moderation in that you won't get as much acceleration until the turbocharger has spun up, though how much difference that makes depends on the engine. Replicating that in software so the rate of change of acceleration (that's what jolts, as someone else above said) is managed on an EV makes a lot of sense.

If a diesel engine is software configured to allow maximum acceleration from a standstill, particularly if that engine is fitted with a gearbox that has a short first gear, diesel buses can throw people back as well; perhaps not as instantaneous but still aggressive enough.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If a diesel engine is software configured to allow maximum acceleration from a stand still particularly if that engine is fitted with a gearbox that has a short first gear diesel buses can throw people back as well, perhaps not as instantaneous but still aggressive enough.

Oh yes it can be "exciting" acceleration on a diesel bus but nothing like as aggressive as the launch of an electric bus. The g forces must be akin to those of an emergency brake application.

 

[Towers]

If a diesel engine is software configured to allow maximum acceleration from a standstill, particularly if that engine is fitted with a gearbox that has a short first gear, diesel buses can throw people back as well; perhaps not as instantaneous but still aggressive enough.

Of course; if you drive any vehicle like a bit of a twit you can make it uncomfortable, it would have to be a monumentally gutless machine not to achieve harsh acceleration if you floor it from a standing start!

 

[Robertj21a]

Not sure that there's a real issue here other than a lack of understandiing. Trolleybuses in the UK were known to shoot away from every stop and, while we don't have any operating in 2024, there are many operating abroad, some very new.
I'm not aware of similar problems elsewhere and would suggest that it's mostly down to a lack of understanding by modern day UK passengers (and some bus drivers).

 

[Towers]

Not sure that there's a real issue here other than a lack of understandiing. Trolleybuses in the UK were known to shoot away from every stop and, while we don't have any operating in 2024, there are many operating abroad, some very new.
I'm not aware of similar problems elsewhere and would suggest that it's mostly down to a lack of understanding by modern day UK passengers (and some bus drivers).

It doesn’t really matter though; passengers sent flying on a bus where it is deemed that the driving was unduly harsh would fully expect compensation here in the UK, and probably receive it! If you injure somebody you cannot claim it was their fault because they “didn’t understand”, Britain really isn’t set up like that!

 

[Busaholic]

Not sure that there's a real issue here other than a lack of understandiing. Trolleybuses in the UK were known to shoot away from every stop and, while we don't have any operating in 2024, there are many operating abroad, some very new.
I'm not aware of similar problems elsewhere and would suggest that it's mostly down to a lack of understanding by modern day UK passengers (and some bus drivers).

The big difference between the trolleybuses that used to run in the U.K. and those that still run, and increasingly so, in the wider world is that the vast majority of the former were one entrance/exit doubledeckers and the vast majority of the latter are singledeckers, often with multiple entrance/exit points.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not sure that there's a real issue here other than a lack of understandiing. Trolleybuses in the UK were known to shoot away from every stop and, while we don't have any operating in 2024, there are many operating abroad, some very new.
I'm not aware of similar problems elsewhere and would suggest that it's mostly down to a lack of understanding by modern day UK passengers (and some bus drivers).

I wonder if people are understanding the risks and so that is why many passengers seem more reluctant to move along inside and upstairs. I for one will certainly be reviewing whether I should aim for seats at the back or upstairs. I certainly think I will forget upstairs which is a shame because there are almost always seats available upstairs.