Electrification possible alternatives and solutions

[Grumpy Git]

Lots of diesel routes fall into that category and in the long need to be electrified but this govt are still hooked on alternative fuel sources being the panacea so im not hopeful that we will see much more happening until they realise that at best 10-20 mile excursions off an existing electrified route is the best that battery trains can achieve reliably.

Battery trains are a bonkers idea apart from shunting in a depot.

Carting about all that dead weight for buggerall mileage is ridiculous.

Just put the wires up and use EMU's

 

[Ken H]

The thing that makes the CLC particularly suitable is the large number of local stations, for which a high acceleration modern EMU would be able to provide a considerable timetable improvement over a DMU.

Plenty of routes like that. but how do we prioritise them? Is it not the West Midlands' turn? (Dorrrige - Kiddy?) Or Yorkshire? Leeds - Harrogate, perhaps? Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Is it not the West Midlands' turn?

Why does any non-London infrastructure need to take a "turn".

To paraphrase Jim Royle, "Levelling up my ar5e"

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Battery trains are a bonkers idea apart from shunting in a depot.

Carting about all that dead weight for buggerall mileage is ridiculous.

Just put the wires up and use EMU's

Battery would be ideal for Windermere branch but on the other hand given its low speed it could have easily been wired to the same standard that BR adopted with Southminster/St Albans branches. What is bonkers is carting around diesel engines+alternators+fire suppression systems and tanks of fuel on Azumas for 400 miles just so they can run onto Aberdeen and back but i guess its an improvement on using HSTs (although not for comfort) for 400 miles under the wires. The failure of NR to deliver on electrification schemes in early 2010's is costing us dearly now.

 

[urbophile]

The thing that makes the CLC particularly suitable is the large number of local stations, for which a high acceleration modern EMU would be able to provide a considerable timetable improvement over a DMU.

The local service at the Liverpool end could be boosted to Merseyrail frequency with electrification. Doubtless that would also improve the appalling frequency at Manchester local stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

Battery trains are a bonkers idea apart from shunting in a depot.

Best tell the Germans, the French, the Japanese, the Hungarians, and the Danes, all of whom have bought battery trains soon to enter service, or already in service... they are clearly all wrong.

Oh and the Scousers.

 

[HSTEd]

Best tell the Germans, the French, the Japanese, the Hungarians, and the Danes, all of whom have bought battery trains soon to enter service, or already in service... they are clearly all wrong.

Oh and the Scousers.

Well didn't the Class 379 trial report that the batteries were basically wrecked in a relatively short period of time?

I remain skeptical this is not just desperate accountants trying to avoid the capital spend at any cost.

 

[cle]

Plenty of routes like that. but how do we prioritise them? Is it not the West Midlands' turn? (Dorrrige - Kiddy?) Or Yorkshire? Leeds - Harrogate, perhaps? Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley?

All of those need doing.

And agree with 'Grumpy Git' - the 'regions' have been beaten into taking scraps and token offerings so badly over the years, that there is this war of attrition, of perceived turns and favoured children. Never worse than two certain cities, but it's across the board and depressing. Nobody's fault in said regions, but a sorry state of thinking after decades of under-investment.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well didn't the Class 379 trial report that the batteries were basically wrecked in a relatively short period of time?

I remain skeptical this is not just desperate accountants trying to avoid the capital spend at any cost.

I’m sure Siemens know what they are doing when they commit to supplying battery trains.

 

[HSTEd]

I’m sure Siemens know what they are doing when they commit to supplying battery trains.

Well yes, but that could be "we can make huge sums selling replacement battery packs to them"

 

[Bald Rick]

Well yes, but that could be "we can make huge sums selling replacement battery packs to them"

For the fleet of Mireo B+ Going to Baden-Württenburg, It’s a full service deal, the cost of replacements is on them already.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I’m sure Siemens know what they are doing when they commit to supplying battery trains.j

Just because a company is very well established, multinational and has an enormous product range, it doesn't always mean they are immune from the odd "lemon".

I have 40+ years experience in electrical engineering and I know this to be true of said establishment.

 

[gg1]

Based on the current proposed usage of Battery trains I'm inclined to agree. With the traffic levels on those routes the Merseyrail extensions really should be electrified, as should the often mentioned Windermere line.

When technology improves to the point that BEMUs have a battery range of 100+ miles however, that will be a real game changer, at that point completely eliminating ALL diesel hauled passenger services nationwide by partially electrifying lightly used routes becomes feasible.

 

[Bald Rick]

When technology improves to the point that BEMUs have a battery range of 100+ miles however, that will be a real game changer

Why 100 miles, and not 150, or 50 ?

 

[gordonthemoron]

could diesel routes be electrified (for battery trains) by using the Newcastle NSW tram system of charging at stations via a pantograph and an overhead charger (CAF tram)?

 

[Grumpy Git]

At the end of the day all of this is an excuse for not investing in OLE and quoting "future technology" as the answer. I believe something similar was discussed as the solution to the Northern Ireland "border" as part of the "you know what" negotiations. It's basically semantics for kicking the can down the road and frankly inexcusable. Those in charge seem only to want to make the right noises until such time that they can make-way for the next educated idiot (and retire with a lucrative biography deal).

OLE = existing 50 years + proven technology, totally green at the point of use and plenty of existing rolling stock.

 

[CdBrux]

If you never try (to have a workable solution for batteries with a decent range) then you will never succeed. Some sensible investment should surely go into providing a market potential of some size, for example by committing to purchasing battery trians a la Merseyrail, for say Buxton, Windermere, shorter GWR branch lines,.... which would give some certainty to the manufacturers that if they invest wisely they will make a return which thus gets the development and innovation kick started. In turn this can then lead to more efficient and longer range solutions over time

 

[gg1]

Why 100 miles, and not 150, or 50 ?

Because at 100 miles you reach the point where relatively modest extensions to either existing electrifications schemes, or those schemes with a strong enough business case that there's a realistic chance they could be authorised with the next 10 years or so, allow large scale removal of diesel services from routes which realistically have a poor case for electrification in their own right. Obviously longer ranges are better and give your more options but I quoted a figure of 100 miles as the lower point at which this becomes viable and worth seriously considering. With sub 50 mile ranges you may as well dispense with batteries entirely and electrify instead.

Taking Wales as an example, the following routes all have a very strong business case for electrification in their own right and should (obviously not the same as will) all really be authorised in the next 10 years or so.

Valley Lines
Cardiff - Swansea
Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury
Crewe - Chester

An extension from Swansea to Carmarthen allows the removal of all diesel services from Manchester to West Wales
A small extension of 10 miles or so south of Shrewsbury removes diesels from South Wales - Manchester and the HoW (of course with slightly longer range this wouldn't be necessary).
Extending from Chester to Llandudno (admiteddly longer than the other 2 extensions) clears the North Wales line of all diesel services, and with a slightly extended dwell at Llandudno covers the Conwy Valley.

The final remaining diesel island is the Cambrian Coast line, for this you would realistically need intermittent electrification with an electrified section either mid route or at either end, not as straightforward but doable and it would completely eliminate all diesel services from Wales.

 

[BayPaul]

Battery trains are a bonkers idea apart from shunting in a depot.

Carting about all that dead weight for buggerall mileage is ridiculous.

Just put the wires up and use EMU's

'Just put wires up' has been the cry on here for years. Clearly it just isn't remotely financially possible to just put wires up on massive parts of the network, and even if it were, it would take decades.

Batteries just seem like the obvious solution. They are proven technology, in use on other networks, and in cars, busses and ferries with similar issues (in fact I would argue that trains are the easiest to fit a battery to of these, as there are less space constraints, the environment is less harsh, they have a good maintenance regime, and there are more and easier opportunities for charging)

Batteries seem to me to give 3 obvious areas for operations:

• Extensions to existing services, removal of diesel under the wires and similar - Windermere, Merseyrail extensions, Oxted, North Downs etc. Yes, in an ideal world, these would be electrified, but if they converted to batteries, then they could move down the list, and instead NR could concentrate on other lines where this isn't an option.
• Short, self contained branch lines, with 10 minute fast chargers at one or both ends. Wiring Looe is a long way away from the top of anyone's wish list, but with batteries it could be carbon neutral in just a couple of years
• Making electrification cheaper. Like on the valley lines, don't bother wiring the expensive or difficult sections, instead install a smallish traction battery on the EMUs.

I find it hard to understand why the UK railway network is so far behind on this one - I hope the current Vivarail project is the start of a big shift

 

[Grumpy Git]

Clearly it just isn't remotely financially possible to just put wires up on massive parts of the network, and even if it were, it would take decades.

(my bold)


There have been at least FIVE decades since OLE installation first started on British Rail. Just imagine how much could have been accomplished in that time, not to mention the build-up and retention of engineering skills and the knock-on revenue for suppliers? It makes me sick the way this country sold-off the bulk of its manufacturing base. We became an island of share-dealers and bankers, creating wealth out of fresh air.

 

[HSTEd]

'Just put wires up' has been the cry on here for years. Clearly it just isn't remotely financially possible to just put wires up on massive parts of the network, and even if it were, it would take decades.

Ultimately because we've been here before and future technologies are just used as an excuse not to make capital spend.

Like with bionic duckweed, electrodiesels and now battery trains.

 

[Grumpy Git]

.................... future technologies are just used as an excuse not to make capital spend.

We need a "like" button.

 

[BayPaul]

(my bold)


There have been at least FIVE decades since OLE installation first started on British Rail. Just imagine how much could have been accomplished in that time, not to mention the build-up and retention of engineering skills and the knock-on revenue for suppliers? It makes me sick the way this country sold-off the bulk of its manufacturing base. We became an island of share-dealers and bankers, creating wealth out of fresh air.

It's an old saying, but there really is no point crying over spilled milk. Yes, lots could have been achieved, but there is very little point in wishing things had happened differently. We are where we are, and we need to make the best of our current situation.

Ultimately because we've been here before and future technologies are just used as an excuse not to make capital spend.

Like with bionic duckweed, electrodiesels and now battery trains.

Should battery trains really be lumped in with bionic duckweed. They are operating in other countries, and are based on the same tech as is used here for cars and buses.

I'm not arguing that electrification should slow down, just that we could decarbonise much faster if we used both. For example, concentrate on electrifying the MML, Trans Pennine and Chiltern routes, but put batteries on routes like the Cornish Branches and Windermere.

 

[BrianW]

Should battery trains really be lumped in with bionic duckweed. They are operating in other countries, and are based on the same tech as is used here for cars and buses.

Video: Green train goes Forth to mark COP26 in Glasgow

Network Rail and Vivarail have released stunning aerial shots of the first emission-free fully-electric train to cross the iconic Forth Bridge as the United Nations Climate Change Conference takes place in Glasgow.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

It's an old saying, but there really is no point crying over spilled milk. Yes, lots could have been achieved, but there is very little point in wishing things had happened differently. We are where we are, and we need to make the best of our current situation.

Should battery trains really be lumped in with bionic duckweed. They are operating in other countries, and are based on the same tech as is used here for cars and buses.

I'm not arguing that electrification should slow down, just that we could decarbonise much faster if we used both. For example, concentrate on electrifying the MML, Trans Pennine and Chiltern routes, but put batteries on routes like the Cornish Branches and Windermere.

At risk of repetition, Network Rail mapped out their thoughts on what 'solution' where, but when?? Yesterday?!

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Traction-Decarbonisation-Network-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf

 

[Grumpy Git]

The map on P18 of that NR is an embarassment. Better to have paid for a km or two of OLE for what that "glossy" document cost to produce too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ultimately because we've been here before and future technologies are just used as an excuse not to make capital spend.

Like with bionic duckweed, electrodiesels and now battery trains.

The railways have received billions over the last 20 years and Dep of T has been given a budget provisions of billions in last weeks spending review so don't see that as an excuse not to make capital spend. The bigger issue was the denial of capital to BR who could have delivered electrification at half the price it will now cost but are where we are. Battery trains have limited opportunity but BEMUs can deliver a lot more like Manchester to Windermere now if we want to grasp the nettle. Hydrogen is certainly bionic duckweed and is definitely not carbon neutral. Ive already had my say on Azumas.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Ultimately because we've been here before and future technologies are just used as an excuse not to make capital spend.

Like with bionic duckweed, electrodiesels and now battery trains.

We need a "like" button.

Yes indeed. Just pump bionic duckweed straight into the diesel tanks and all will be good.

I'm not arguing that electrification should slow down, just that we could decarbonise much faster if we used both. For example, concentrate on electrifying the MML, Trans Pennine and Chiltern routes, but put batteries on routes like the Cornish Branches and Windermere.

A good practical plan - isn't that what Scotland is in effect doing?

 

[Grumpy Git]

The railways have received billions over the last 20 years ..............................................

A good percentage of which has gone into the coffers of overseas owned rolling-stock manufacturers, which again is totally shameless.

 

[CdBrux]

A good percentage of which has gone into the coffers of overseas owned rolling-stock manufacturers, which again is totally shameless.

I have to say you chose you name for this forum very well!

 

[Bald Rick]

Taking Wales as an example, the following routes all have a very strong business case for electrification in their own right and should (obviously not the same as will) all really be authorised in the next 10 years or so.

Cardiff - Swansea
Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury
Crewe - Chester

Can you provide a link to the ‘very strong business case for electrification in their own right’ for these three?

When I saw the business case for Cardiff - Swansea electrification, it was the polar opposite of ‘very strong’.