Electrification time scales update (North West)

[northwichcat]

On Monday Network Rail published a new press release confirming that phase 1 of North West electrification has been completed "on time and under budget."

At the bottom it gives timescales for the other phases:

The North West electrification programme is being delivered in five phases between December 2013 and December 2016:

Phase 1: Between Castlefield Junction and Newton Le Willows by December 2013
Phase 2a: Between Liverpool and Newton Le Willows
Phase 2b: Between Huyton and Wigan
Phase 2c: Between Ordsall Lane and Manchester Victoria, all by December 2014
Phase 3: Preston to Blackpool, by May 2016
Phase 4: Manchester Victoria to Preston (Euxton Junction), by December 2016
Phase 5: Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge, Guide Bridge to Stalybridge, December 2016

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2...st-electrification-programme-is-commissioned/

There has been some confusion in threads recently about when Manchester Victoria could take electric trains with some people claiming December 2014 and others claiming it would be later on when Stalybridge is electrified, so the above confirms that from December 14 the following can run as electric, subject to electric trains being available:
1. Liverpool to Manchester Airport (expresss)
2. Liverpool to Manchester Victoria (stoppers)
3. Liverpool to Wigan

Then from May 2016 Liverpool to Blackpool can become electric, with the rest of the North West routes electric by December 2016.

Edit: I realise this has been mentioned in the Liverpool-Manchester thread but it's also relevant to the discussions coming up in other threads as well.

 

[ianhr]

Do we know yet what services modifications, interim and/or permanent, are proposed at each stage?

Dec 14: Will there be a ManVic-Stalybridge DMU shuttle to replace the Liverpool-Stalybridge workings? Will Liverpool-Blackpool be split at Preston or remain DMU throughout? I thought there was a proposal for a new Manchester-Liverpool non-stop (to Picc or Vic?).

May 16: Will the Liverpool train be the only electric working to Blackpool initially or will there be a Manchester-Blackpool via Wigan?

How many 319s and/or 317s will be diagrammed with each switch on?

 

[northwichcat]

Dec 14: Will there be a ManVic-Stalybridge DMU shuttle to replace the Liverpool-Stalybridge workings? Will Liverpool-Blackpool be split at Preston or remain DMU throughout? I thought there was a proposal for a new Manchester-Liverpool non-stop (to Picc or Vic?).

The May 2014 timetable change will see the end of through workings between Stalybridge and Liverpool. December 2014 should see Victoria-Lime Street being a half-hourly service all day.

The new non-stop Liverpool to Manchester service is the new Liverpool to Newcastle service which will start in May 2014 but will be diesel until North TPE electrification.

There are also some other May 2014 changes like a Rochdale service extended to Todmorden (reversing on the new curve) and they'll be a new 'grand tour' where trains will do Blackpool-Victoria-Huddersfield then Huddersfield-Victoria-Wigan, then Wigan-Victoria, then Victoria-Blackpool.

or will there be a Manchester-Blackpool via Wigan?

Very unlikely.

How many 319s and/or 317s will be diagrammed with each switch on?

No deal for Northern getting extra EMUs has yet been signed off.

 

[deltic08]

It reads from the Network Rail website, that many have directed Forum readers to, that Northern Hub is about the whole of the North of England. Not to me it doesn't. Anything east of Guide Bridge/Stalybridge appears as an incidental in the list of improvements and electrification stages on the accompanying map. More appropriate to call it the Manchester Hub?
Not wanting to start another War of the Roses (did it ever end?) but where are York-Scarborough, Manchester-Bradford, Selby-Hull and Leeds-Harrogate electrification schemes just as busy and important to Yorkshire as North West electrification is to former Lancashire?
With five trains an hour (possibly six when enough units are available) between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds and two of these extended to Newcastle at the timetable change, Manchester-York/Selby should have had priority with installation westwards from Colton Junction for use by East Coast and extension of Bradford FS-Leeds trains to York/Selby.
An impartial Northern Hub would have started east of the Pennines. At least Rail North is now based in Leeds to even things up!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

It reads from the Network Rail website, that many have directed Forum readers to, that Northern Hub is about the whole of the North of England. Not to me it doesn't. Anything east of Guide Bridge/Stalybridge appears as an incidental in the list of improvements and electrification stages on the accompanying map. More appropriate to call it the Manchester Hub?
Not wanting to start another War of the Roses (did it ever end?) but where are York-Scarborough, Manchester-Bradford, Selby-Hull and Leeds-Harrogate electrification schemes just as busy and important to Yorkshire as North West electrification is to former Lancashire?
With five trains an hour (possibly six when enough units are available) between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds and two of these extended to Newcastle at the timetable change, Manchester-York/Selby should have had priority with installation westwards from Colton Junction for use by East Coast and extension of Bradford FS-Leeds trains to York/Selby.
An impartial Northern Hub would have started east of the Pennines. At least Rail North is now based in Leeds to even things up!!

It was originally branded the Manchester Hub but other stakeholders around the North realised it would also benefit them so wanted to join in on the project. Hence Northern Hub. Manchester/Northern Hub will bring major benefits to most of the North of England so i don't see your problem with that. Manchester is the largest city in the North too (taking into account population over wider urban area).

You are wanting to see something that doesn't really exist with regards to Lancashire and Yorkshire. Infact Yorkshire potentially has far more electrification planned within the next 10 years. MML plus obvious infills, TPE to York and Hull (Selby but v.soon anticipated announcement to Hull). The business case has been put together for Harrogate line and looks very very positive and is likely for CP6 along with all manor of other schemes.

Also the Leeds -York/Selby is being prioritised and is to be done 2 years ahead of the rest of the Transpennine Scheme. But Transpennine electrification was announced a full 2-3 years after NW electrification and Manchester Hub so that is why it is not coming first.

Why would an impartial Northern Hub start east of Pennines? That would make it bias to the east??????? Bear in mind that NO electrification is planned with Northern Hub, electrification is seperate.

And finally, York-Scarborough. How you can suggest this is anywhere near as big priority as any of the schemes currently announced i do not know. 1 Train per hour....???? That train is to be converted to a Scaborough Blackpool North service calling York Garforth Leeds. What is the problem with that?

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed the whole point of the Northern Hub is to allow more services between Liverpool and Yorkshire by removing the capacity bottlenecks in Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed the whole point of the Northern Hub is to allow more services between Liverpool and Yorkshire by removing the capacity bottlenecks in Manchester.

Is the Ordsall Chord project a stand-alone project or has it now been incorporated as an integral part of the Northern Hub project which will go some way to mitigate the Manchester capacity bottlenecks shown in your quote above.

 

[WatcherZero]

The chord is part of the hub, though the Government announced funding for it seperately.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The chord is part of the hub, though the Government announced funding for it seperately.

Thanks for your clarification. Any news on the MOSI objection ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Im Chuffed, just learnt that Bolton to Wigan North Western is to be electrified by 2017 at a cost of £37m!

Bolton News carrying the story, nothing on Dft yet.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/10874996._/

 

[STANDISH]

News also on the BBC Regional News at 06:30am,including also some new roads.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does this mean Crow Nest Junction to Salford Crescent via Hag Fold is going to be the only section not electrified?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[swt_passenger]

Announcement here, it has been combined with news of other spending areas such as the local pinch points fund:

post corrected, I had mistakenly included it all under the pinch point heading.

...and electrification of the Wigan-to-Bolton railway line. A taskforce will report to the Transport Secretary within 12 months on the acceleration of further rail electrification schemes in the North of England.

[...]

The railway line between Wigan (North Western Station) and Bolton (Lostock Junction) will be electrified, at an estimated cost of £37 million and targeted for completion by 2017. This will enable the conversion of the busy Wigan to Manchester Victoria services and Wigan to Manchester Airport services from older Pacer diesel trains to more modern and higher capacity electric trains.

A joint taskforce will explore where next for electrification in the North. The new taskforce will be made up of experts from Network Rail and the DfT and will involve train operators, local authorities including the Rail North consortium, the supply chain and local Members of Parliament. This group will provide the Transport Secretary with an interim report within 12 months setting out how schemes can be brought forward and their development accelerated.

As part of Network Rail’s ongoing work to identify the next generation of schemes that will be electrified as part of the government’s continued rail investment, the routes to be examined will include:

Leeds – Harrogate – York
Selby – Hull
Sheffield – Leeds
Sheffield – Doncaster
East Coast Main Line – Middlesbrough
Sheffield – Manchester
Warrington– Chester
Crewe – Chester

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/road-and-rail-projects-to-boost-local-and-regional-transport--2

 

[STANDISH]

Atherton line could go over to trams, but I assume this would be after they build the tram line to the Trafford Centre.

 

[ianhr]

Announcement here, it is part of the local pinch points funding series, 'Tranche 4':

I would have thought Hunt's Cross-Trafford via the CLC line might have had a good case too.

 

[edwin_m]

I notice it says Wigan North Western not Wallgate. This doesn't surprise me as the bridge under Wallgate looks very low and difficult to raise it or lower the track. With the method of working at Wallgate the wires would probably also have to continue under the WCML and that bridge doesn't look much better. Bays 2 and 3 at North Western are little used and I don't think much uses loop platform 1 either.

However it does make thinks a little complicated for passengers going to Manchester, as of the five trains per hour* three will go from NW (one via Parkside and two via Bolton), one will definitely go from Wallgate (the one from Southport) and one could go from either if it a terminator via Atherton or would have to be from Wallgate if the Kirby service runs through to Manchester. Some clever passenger information will be required to direct people to the correct station, and some passengers who now interchange within Wallgate will have to transfer between stations. On the other hand some interchanges now requiring a change of station will be fully within North Western.

*this is a best guess and may be incorrect - the problems will remain whatever the exact numbers.

 

[ianhr]

Is the Ordsall Chord project a stand-alone project or has it now been incorporated as an integral part of the Northern Hub project which will go some way to mitigate the Manchester capacity bottlenecks shown in your quote above.

Although capacity bottlenecks will be relieved on the MSJ and at Piccadilly there will eventually be a lot more conflicting movements at Ordsall/Windsor Bridge and I would have thought consideration might be given to building a dive under or flyover to separate ManVic-Chat Moss trains from Man Oxford Rd-Salford Cres movements. There seems to be plenty of space for this.

 

[edwin_m]

I would have thought Hunt's Cross-Trafford via the CLC line might have had a good case too.

Less so than some others, as the local services don't go off-route and the longer-distance ones are still likely to be diesels because they continue eastwards onto the Hope Valley. The only running under the wires is between Allerton and Lime Street. It is also tangled up with the question of whether Merseytravel might want to divert the local services onto the Merseyrail network, which would require either third rail to Warrington or (more likely) dual-voltage units as the Merseyrail replacement stock.

 

[northwichcat]

Atherton line could go over to trams, but I assume this would be after they build the tram line to the Trafford Centre.

It's a proposed tram-train line but isn't TfGM's highest priority for tram-train operation.

 

[ianhr]

Less so than some others, as the local services don't go off-route and the longer-distance ones are still likely to be diesels because they continue eastwards onto the Hope Valley. The only running under the wires is between Allerton and Lime Street. It is also tangled up with the question of whether Merseytravel might want to divert the local services onto the Merseyrail network, which would require either third rail to Warrington or (more likely) dual-voltage units as the Merseyrail replacement stock.

Oh yes, good points. It will be interesting to see whether Merseyrail go for dual-voltage stock. They have quite a few other proposals for extensions: Bidston-Hawarden-(Wrexham?); Kirkby-Skem and Ormskirk-Preston. I would have thought there is a strong possibilty that some of these might be 25kV rather than extending the 3rd rail.

 

[WatcherZero]

I notice it says Wigan North Western not Wallgate. This doesn't surprise me as the bridge under Wallgate looks very low and difficult to raise it or lower the track. With the method of working at Wallgate the wires would probably also have to continue under the WCML and that bridge doesn't look much better. Bays 2 and 3 at North Western are little used and I don't think much uses loop platform 1 either.

However it does make thinks a little complicated for passengers going to Manchester, as of the five trains per hour* three will go from NW (one via Parkside and two via Bolton), one will definitely go from Wallgate (the one from Southport) and one could go from either if it a terminator via Atherton or would have to be from Wallgate if the Kirby service runs through to Manchester. Some clever passenger information will be required to direct people to the correct station, and some passengers who now interchange within Wallgate will have to transfer between stations. On the other hand some interchanges now requiring a change of station will be fully within North Western.

*this is a best guess and may be incorrect - the problems will remain whatever the exact numbers.

Indeed, truncating the Kirkby and running as a shuttle is pretty much a given as its been raised before by planners. You cant convert the two services per hour via Atherton. You would be faced with running the Southport service as a diesel under the wires or stopping that short of the airport and forcing a change. You then have the terminus of one of the services as Rochdale which would likely have to change to Stalybridge. Does leave some recasting headaches.

I guess what they could do would be two electric trains per hour to the Airport (one TPE via Chat Moss, one via Bolton) Southport service becomes an hourly diesel from Southport to Rochdale via Atherton, likely would have to be strengthened to 2x Sprinter, Kirkby service (if not a shuttle) becomes an hourly diesel via Atherton to Rochdale/Stalybridge (single pacer/sprinter offpeak, 2x pacer peak) and you have one offpeak/two peak electric Wigan NW-Manchester Vic/Stalybridge via Bolton.

 

[northwichcat]

Less so than some others, as the local services don't go off-route and the longer-distance ones are still likely to be diesels because they continue eastwards onto the Hope Valley.

Hunts Cross to Trafford would likely be done alongside Hazel Grove to Sheffield.

Putting the pieces together from the various RUS' and the Northern Hub plans if the above was done I imagine the end result would be:
* Liverpool to Doncaster (hourly electric)
* Liverpool to Nottingham (hourly electric)
* Manchester Airport to Norwich (diesel not via Sheffield)
* Sheffield to Cleethorpes (diesel)

The electrification RUS suggested ended the through service between Manchester and Cleethorpes, while the Northern Hub suggested a half-hourly Liverpool to Sheffield via Warrington service and somewhere else it was recommended that the Norwich service should avoid a Sheffield reversal to give a faster Nottingham-Manchester service.

 

[WatcherZero]

Also included in the road part of the announcement is £1m towards £1.5m cost of road connection to Port Salford Road/Ship/Rail freight terminal.

 

[ianhr]

Hunts Cross to Trafford would likely be done alongside Hazel Grove to Sheffield.

Putting the pieces together from the various RUS' and the Northern Hub plans if the above was done I imagine the end result would be:
* Liverpool to Doncaster (hourly electric)
* Liverpool to Nottingham (hourly electric)
* Manchester Airport to Norwich (diesel not via Sheffield)
* Sheffield to Cleethorpes (diesel)

The electrification RUS suggested ended the through service between Manchester and Cleethorpes, while the Northern Hub suggested a half-hourly Liverpool to Sheffield via Warrington service and somewhere else it was recommended that the Norwich service should avoid a Sheffield reversal to give a faster Nottingham-Manchester service.

Man Airport-Norwich is an interesting idea. How about a completely new routing to Peterborough: Man-Stoke-Derby-Melton Mowbray-Peterborough(Norwich or even Stansted). This would link Man with E.Midlands Airport and Stansted, provide a new Derby-Manchester route etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's a proposed tram-train line but isn't TfGM's highest priority for tram-train operation.

Could the disused two platforms at Hindley be brought into play as the terminal platforms of a tram-train Manchester-Atherton-Hindley tram-train route which would have an interchange faciility with the electrified heavy rail Bolton to Wigan line, similar to the Manchester Metrolink and heavy-rail situation at Altrincham Interchange ? I assume tram-train units can share the same tracks as heavy rail units on the short section from Crow Nest junction to Hindley.

 

[northwichcat]

Man Airport-Norwich is an interesting idea. How about a completely new routing to Peterborough: Man-Stoke-Derby-Melton Mowbray-Peterborough(Norwich or even Stansted). This would link Man with E.Midlands Airport and Stansted, provide a new Derby-Manchester route etc.

The West Coast RUS proposed that Derby-Crewe should be extended to Manchester Airport but would require all services to be formed of at least 2 carriages.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Man Airport-Norwich is an interesting idea. How about a completely new routing to Peterborough: Man-Stoke-Derby-Melton Mowbray-Peterborough(Norwich or even Stansted). This would link Man with E.Midlands Airport and Stansted, provide a new Derby-Manchester route etc.

Would the Manchester Airport to Stoke section of the route above be routed via Wilmslow and Crewe or via a reversal at Manchester Piccadilly...or have I amalgamated both the above ideas ?

 

[northwichcat]

I assume tram-train units can share the same tracks as heavy rail units

Yes they can. The only issue being TfGM want electric only tram-trains and the Metrolink overheads are DC so if they are to run on National Rail electrified lines then the tram-trains will need to be dual voltage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southport service becomes an hourly diesel from Southport to Rochdale via Atherton

I doubt Merseytravel will find that an acceptable solution.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes they can. The only issue being TfGM want electric only tram-trains and the Metrolink overheads are DC so if they are to run on National Rail electrified lines then the tram-trains will need to be dual voltage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I doubt Merseytravel will find that an acceptable solution.

Sheffield are tram trains to be dual voltage. So possible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is this Bolton Wigan announcement part of a realisation we need to get rid of pacers? It seems almost directly wanting to achieve that. Electrification really is being taken very seriously by this government.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How many EMU units would be the requirement to achieve service provision of all the "future" lines that are stated to be requiring of future consideration in this report ?