Elizabeth line - ASLEF Strikes (now resolved)

[iphone76]

Some good news. We have just been told that the offer has been accepted and all action has now been called off.

We haven't been told the offer is, just that it's been accepted and no industrial action will now take place.

 

[Horizon22]

Heathrow may, but the stations solely served by the Elizabeth line out to Reading don't. It's the same with other disruption - they arrange ticket acceptance on London buses, but nothing further out.

Yes this is true, but it couldn't be resourced so its a moot point.

 

[Goldfish62]

Some good news. We have just been told that the offer has been accepted and all action has now been called off.

We haven't been told the offer is, just that it's been accepted and no industrial action will now take place.

Good news.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Offer from what I hear is pretty much the 4.5% plus a few additional bonuses for overtime and extra AL. Not a bad deal to be honest when all said and done.

Big ones seems to be the RDW and Overtime which are no longer flat rate paid but time and a half or so.

 

[Horizon22]

Offer from what I hear is pretty much the 4.5% plus a few additional bonuses for overtime and extra AL. Not a bad deal to be honest when all said and done.

Big ones seems to be the RDW and Overtime which are no longer flat rate paid but time and a half or so.

1.5x regular rate for RDW. Also extra enhancements for NYE services - which was a particular point of contention after the Overground got 2-3x rates whilst Elizabeth line drivers got none.

 

[dk1]

Some good news. We have just been told that the offer has been accepted and all action has now been called off. We haven't been told the offer is, just that it's been accepted and no industrial action will now take place.

1.5x regular rate for RDW. Also extra enhancements for NYE services - which was a particular point of contention after the Overground got 2-3x rates whilst Elizabeth line drivers got none.

Excellent result all round.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Indeed. Not bad at all

 

[setdown]

So as someone who is admittedly truly ignorant in such matters, where does this money come from? Is this kind of settlement funded solely through increased fares, or does it come from other departmental budgets? Or did it exist all along without being assigned elsewhere?

 

[Carlisle]

So as someone who is admittedly truly ignorant in such matters, where does this money come from?

See post#61

 

[JN114]

On a functioning railway system, maybe some GWR services would make extra stops

Ordinary day yes, it should probably happen more often than it does - But no operator is going to strike break for another; otherwise they’ll quickly find themselves embroiled in the same dispute.

 

[Goldfish62]

See post#61

That doesn't say where the money comes from. TfL's rail operations heavily cross-subsidise the bus network, so if rail makes less "profit" then that's less money for buses which ultimately probably means further service reductions, plus also more "back office" redundancies at TfL, the latest swathe of which is currently happening.

Not criticising what the staff have won, good for them, just trying to explain the likely knock-on consequences.

 

[NSEWonderer]

That doesn't say where the money comes from. TfL's rail operations heavily cross-subsidise the bus network, so if rail makes less "profit" then that's less money for buses which ultimately probably means further service reductions, plus also more "back office" redundancies at TfL, the latest swathe of which is currently happening.

Not criticising what the staff have won, good for them, just trying to explain the likely knock-on consequences.

On the flip side the Elizabeth Line did help create a lot of revenue and in actually a few cases I believe TFL made a profit of it which would ideally have been used to boost other tfl services.

 

[winks]

What’s the A/L increase and how does that compare to TfL ?

 

[whoosh]

That doesn't say where the money comes from. TfL's rail operations heavily cross-subsidise the bus network, so if rail makes less "profit" then that's less money for buses which ultimately probably means further service reductions, plus also more "back office" redundancies at TfL, the latest swathe of which is currently happening.

Not criticising what the staff have won, good for them, just trying to explain the likely knock-on consequences.

It's not much more in total than the original offer. The offer for the ordinary rate of pay is the same. Overtime rate is increased, but this will still be cheaper than a full time member of staff's NI, pension contributions, assessments and uniform.
There is a greater rate for New Years Eve which has a higher cost, but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't much considering the Elizabeth Line's ridership is much greater than forecasted.

 

[greatkingrat]

What’s the A/L increase and how does that compare to TfL ?

There is no increase to the total number of days AL, they are just increasing the number of people allowed to book AL on any given day.

 

[43066]

1.5x regular rate for RDW. Also extra enhancements for NYE services - which was a particular point of contention after the Overground got 2-3x rates whilst Elizabeth line drivers got none.

1.5 x time for overtime is standard in other parts of the industry. NYE/Boxing day etc. working isn’t, but the 2-3x rates offered by TfL would surely be the obvious starting point.

Great news that it’s been settled, but disappointing that it was ever allowed to progress as far as it did beforehand, to be honest!

 

[Goldfish62]

On the flip side the Elizabeth Line did help create a lot of revenue and in actually a few cases I believe TFL made a profit of it which would ideally have been used to boost other tfl services.

The issue is that it came during TfL's financial meltdown due to Covid so has helped reduce the amount of potential cuts to services, rather than boost anything. For example, while the central London bus service cuts went ahead a couple of years ago they weren't nearly as extreme as the proposals outlined in the public consultation.

It's not much more in total than the original offer. The offer for the ordinary rate of pay is the same. Overtime rate is increased, but this will still be cheaper than a full time member of staff's NI, pension contributions, assessments and uniform.
There is a greater rate for New Years Eve which has a higher cost, but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't much considering the Elizabeth Line's ridership is much greater than forecasted.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.

 

[43066]

The issue is that it came during TfL's financial meltdown due to Covid so has helped reduce the amount of potential cuts to services, rather than boost anything. For example, while the central London bus service cuts went ahead a couple of years ago they weren't nearly as extreme as the proposals outlined in the public consultation.

AIUI historically the tube, along with the EL today, have been “cash cows” in terms of revenue they’ve generated for TfL, and we know the EL has exceeded all expectations. So I’m not at all sure why people are engaging in hand-wringing about this offer, which is hardly unduly generous, and is just reflecting what can be seen elsewhere in the industry.

 

[1000 rounders]

1.5 x time for overtime is standard in other parts of the industry. NYE/Boxing day etc. working isn’t, but the 2-3x rates offered by TfL would surely be the obvious starting point.

Great news that it’s been settled, but disappointing that it was ever allowed to progress as far as it did beforehand, to be honest!

There is conflicting information, is it part of a free day agreement or a T&C?

 

[whoosh]

There is conflicting information, is it part of a free day agreement or a T&C?

A T&C change. Time and a half to be for all forms of overtime (was previously enforced overtime only like late running and longer jobs off spare).

There is now a Rest Day Working agreement until 29th August 2026.

 

[1000 rounders]

A T&C change. Time and a half to be for all forms of overtime (was previously enforced overtime only like late running and longer jobs off spare).

There is now a Rest Day Working agreement until 29th August 2026.

That is a first then.

GBR better get ready to match that

You get it as part of Freeday agreement, which comes and goes, not as a permanent condition

 

[Horizon22]

That is a first then.

GBR better get ready to match that

Why? This is a TfL concession and the comparison is to LU and over TfL operators.

What I do find interesting is how much the "last and final" commentary was banded around by MTR (and to some extent TfL) due to the upcoming concession change and the cost assumptions not being put onto GTS when this has now massively changed their cost assumptions for the next year.

 

[whoosh]

Why? This is a TfL concession and the comparison is to LU and over TfL operators.

What I do find interesting is how much the "last and final" commentary was banded around by MTR (and to some extent TfL) due to the upcoming concession change and the cost assumptions not being put onto GTS when this has now massively changed their cost assumptions for the next year.

I would say it is likely there is a mechanism of payment for ending a concession period with a staff underestablishment (as training costs would need paying to the new concessionaire).
This could be adjusted to account for an increased overtime rate whilst people are trained to fill vacancies.
An adjustment can also be made to cover New Years Eve payments.

I don't think "massively changed" is correct. This deal increases the overtime rate for voluntary overtime (enforced overtime already paid that rate), and an enhanced rate on New Years Eve. There's far bigger numbers elsewhere in running a railway.

 

[1000 rounders]

I would say it is likely there is a mechanism of payment for ending a concession period with a staff underestablishment (as training costs would need paying to the new concessionaire).
This could be adjusted to account for an increased overtime rate whilst people are trained to fill vacancies.
An adjustment can also be made to cover New Years Eve payments.

I don't think "massively changed" is correct. This deal increases the overtime rate for voluntary overtime (enforced overtime already paid that rate), and an enhanced rate on New Years Eve. There's far bigger numbers elsewhere in running a railway.

I agree numbers are bigger in different departments, but I think in projected cost this is huge.

No other operator has it as a T&C, highest is 1+25%

It must be millions in costs.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I agree numbers are bigger in different departments, but I think in projected cost this is huge.

No other operator has it as a T&C, highest is 1+25%

It must be millions in costs.

But the argument would be that if there is such a need in overtime and rdw by the Elizabeth Line then there must be quite a bit of cost savings made by not employing the said number of drivers that would be needed to fill the work.

We've seen the effect when the RDW ban was imposed as work couldn't be covered effectively even with reshuffles due to not enough avaliable drivers vs service requirements. Overtime is usually cheaper than employing enough salaried members of staff.

 

[Horizon22]

We've seen the effect when the RDW ban was imposed as work couldn't be covered effectively even with reshuffles due to not enough avaliable drivers vs service requirements. Overtime is usually cheaper than employing enough salaried members of staff.

Part of a reason in the collapse of the previous RDW agreement was around issues with depot recruitment not being kept up as agreed.

 

[43066]

This is a TfL concession and the comparison is to LU and over TfL operators.

The better comparison is presumably with London overground and other TOCs. LU is a bit of a different animal - they don’t generally have voluntary overtime, for example.

No other operator has it as a T&C, highest is 1+25%

My operator has 150% for all voluntary overtime. It’s a RDW agreement that is permanent to all intents and purposes, and has been in place for years. So this change to the EL terms is nothing unusual. It’s more surprising that it wasn’t already in place.

 

[1000 rounders]

The better comparison is presumably with London overground and other TOCs. LU is a bit of a different animal - they don’t generally have voluntary overtime, for example.



My operator has 150% for all voluntary overtime. It’s a RDW agreement that is permanent to all intents and purposes, and has been in place for years. So this change to the EL terms is nothing unusual. It’s more surprising that it wasn’t already in place.

Enhanced rates at SWR are in place but as a RDW agreement.

For it to be a condition is shocking. Means it can never change unless some silly sod sells it!

Seems they were on flat rate previously, quite surprising they managed to get it as a t&c, unless they sold some productivity back

 

[NSEWonderer]

Enhanced rates at SWR are in place but as a RDW agreement.

For it to be a condition is shocking. Means it can never change unless some silly sod sells it!

Seems they were on flat rate previously, quite surprising they managed to get it as a t&c, unless they sold some productivity back

Pretty sure one big thing is that the new RDW bonus on the new deal only starts from when this deal was signed and isn't backdated back to April 2024.

I guess the trade in productivity is negligible

 

[1000 rounders]

Pretty sure one big thing is that the new RDW bonus on the new deal only starts from when this deal was signed and isn't backdated back to April 2024.

I guess the trade in productivity is negligible

RPI plus a 100+50% as a t&c?

What were they looking for? They did not sell anything back?