Elizabeth line: Commuters say service 'not what was promised'

[Mag_seven]

From observing passengers, the transverse seats are much more popular; they fill up first on empty and 'full' trains alike.

Yes - I walked the entire length of a Reading starter just prior to departure recently and practically every bay of four was occupied by one person. People want to look out of the window not stare at the person opposite.

 

[AM9]

I'd much rather have a small chance of getting a transverse seat than having to suffer on the really uncomfortable longitudinal seats for an hour.

The 345s will always be a compromise as they serve different flows. It's not a tube line so shouldn't have a tube layout...

Ideally you'd have the same layout as the Berlin S Bahn

Given the increasing popularity of the line, there are probably plenty more passengers requiring the ability to actually get on a train at busy times than the few who travel for longer than the average passenger and insist that they need/want a transverse seat.

 

[cactustwirly]

Given the increasing popularity of the line, there are probably plenty more passengers requiring the ability to actually get on a train at busy times than the few who travel for longer than the average passenger and insist that they need/want a transverse seat.

But there are trains every few minutes in the core, so I don't understand what the issue is.
Changing the seating layout is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall problem if people are regularly left behind

 

[AM9]

But there are trains every few minutes in the core, so I don't understand what the issue is.
Changing the seating layout is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall problem if people are regularly left behind

Not sure what you point is there. Some here are implying that transverse seats are 'essential' for them. For most passengers boarding the trains in the core, if they see an empty transverse seat they are more likey to take it rather than say "I'll sit in a longituinal seat and leave that for somebody whose going further than me."
I am not the one reporting here that they are becoming more crowded, but that has always been recognised as a possibility. Reducing effective capacity, even slightly is not a good look when 18.8BN has been spent in providing it.

 

[Acton1991]

But there are trains every few minutes in the core, so I don't understand what the issue is.
Changing the seating layout is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall problem if people are regularly left behind

The issue is prevalent outside of the core where certain stations have service every 10 or 15 minutes. This will only increase over time as housing developments near to certain stations are finalised, pushing more commuters onto the already crowded trains.

 

[mrmartin]

Really interesting and timely article from London Reconnections about the future of HEx.

The Slow Death Of Heathrow Express - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

When discussing Crossrail, commenters have often speculated on the ultimate demise of Heathrow Express – the private train operating company that runs a non-stop express service between Paddington and Heathrow. This speculation is generally predicated on the belief that once the Elizabeth line runs to Heathrow no-one in their right mind would bother with Heathrow Express. Such speculation was generally that – merely speculation – but now facts and whispers are beginning to emerge, suggesting that maybe Heathrow Express won’t exist by the end of the decade. Here we provide some of the reasons that cast doubt upon the continuing existence of Heathrow Express.

 

[cactustwirly]

The issue is prevalent outside of the core where certain stations have service every 10 or 15 minutes. This will only increase over time as housing developments near to certain stations are finalised, pushing more commuters onto the already crowded trains.

But the Elizabeth line doesn't just serve Acton
It serves destinations like Langley and Taplow which need the transverse seats.

Which is why it needs to be a compromise

 

[Techniquest]

I haven't read that article, but I strongly believe Heathrow Express will keep going for a good long time yet. If I'm in London and I want to go to Heathrow, I aim for the Heathrow Express. Yes it is expensive, but I like it and I'd hate to arrive at Heathrow from central London on a 345. That would be preferable to a ride on the Piccadilly line, granted, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who likes to travel to Heathrow in some sort of actual style.

The holiday experience begins once I board the Express as far as I'm concerned, and ends after I get off it. I'd not feel the same doing the journey on a 345, and I tested this theory some time back with a 345 on a day when they were using the main lines. It's absolutely not the same, I didn't enjoy the experience at all. It was nice to be on the Down Main, that much is for sure, but doing Paddington to Heathrow on a 345 just didn't feel right.

Heathrow Express is certainly the more premium option, no question of that, but is that a bad thing? Not all of us want to cram into a Metro train at Heathrow, or on the way to Heathrow! Yes I have to pay a lot of money for the experience, especially as I don't tend to book it in advance. Last time I did it, it was very much an impulse purchase to clear the Express 387s for haulage, £37 for the privilege but money very well spent when I got to avoid the crowds on the way back!

I like CrossRail, it has transformed travel across London, but I would not want to do a 345 to Heathrow with luggage!

 

[43066]

I haven't read that article, but I strongly believe Heathrow Express will keep going for a good long time yet. If I'm in London and I want to go to Heathrow, I aim for the Heathrow Express. Yes it is expensive, but I like it and I'd hate to arrive at Heathrow from central London on a 345. That would be preferable to a ride on the Piccadilly line, granted, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who likes to travel to Heathrow in some sort of actual style.

The holiday experience begins once I board the Express as far as I'm concerned, and ends after I get off it. I'd not feel the same doing the journey on a 345, and I tested this theory some time back with a 345 on a day when they were using the main lines. It's absolutely not the same, I didn't enjoy the experience at all. It was nice to be on the Down Main, that much is for sure, but doing Paddington to Heathrow on a 345 just didn't feel right.

Heathrow Express is certainly the more premium option, no question of that, but is that a bad thing? Not all of us want to cram into a Metro train at Heathrow, or on the way to Heathrow! Yes I have to pay a lot of money for the experience, especially as I don't tend to book it in advance. Last time I did it, it was very much an impulse purchase to clear the Express 387s for haulage, £37 for the privilege but money very well spent when I got to avoid the crowds on the way back!

I like CrossRail, it has transformed travel across London, but I would not want to do a 345 to Heathrow with luggage!

I agree it’s good that there’s a choice.

Personally HEx was too expensive to justify with my own cash (I used connect instead). Now it’s been replaced by the EL I think I’d always go for a 345 that takes me somewhere more convenient than Paddington, or a Piccadilly line which is a lot more “heritage”!

 

[Benjwri]

Really interesting and timely article from London Reconnections about the future of HEx.

The Slow Death Of Heathrow Express - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

It’s an interesting article, but plainly not the most knowledgeable. For example it claims the limiting factor on the amount t of trains leaving Paddington is platform occupancy rather than paths, which is something anyone who has been to Paddington can tell you is untrue.

 

[hwl]

It’s an interesting article, but plainly not the most knowledgeable. For example it claims the limiting factor on the amount t of trains leaving Paddington is platform occupancy rather than paths, which is something anyone who has been to Paddington can tell you is untrue.

HEx having fixed platforms and much shorter layover times than GWR makes throat optimisation difficult. Addressing the HEx "platform" issues allows better throat optimisation without expensive infrastructure spend but this isn't explained in the article!

 

[matt_world2004]

It’s an interesting article, but plainly not the most knowledgeable. For example it claims the limiting factor on the amount t of trains leaving Paddington is platform occupancy rather than paths, which is something anyone who has been to Paddington can tell you is untrue.

The limiting factor is platform occupancy though . It js why the Elizabeth line was able to increase its frequency when the tunnel opened

 

[AM9]

I haven't read that article, but I strongly believe Heathrow Express will keep going for a good long time yet. If I'm in London and I want to go to Heathrow, I aim for the Heathrow Express. Yes it is expensive, but I like it and I'd hate to arrive at Heathrow from central London on a 345. That would be preferable to a ride on the Piccadilly line, granted, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who likes to travel to Heathrow in some sort of actual style.

The holiday experience begins once I board the Express as far as I'm concerned, and ends after I get off it. I'd not feel the same doing the journey on a 345, and I tested this theory some time back with a 345 on a day when they were using the main lines. It's absolutely not the same, I didn't enjoy the experience at all. It was nice to be on the Down Main, that much is for sure, but doing Paddington to Heathrow on a 345 just didn't feel right.

Heathrow Express is certainly the more premium option, no question of that, but is that a bad thing? Not all of us want to cram into a Metro train at Heathrow, or on the way to Heathrow! Yes I have to pay a lot of money for the experience, especially as I don't tend to book it in advance. Last time I did it, it was very much an impulse purchase to clear the Express 387s for haulage, £37 for the privilege but money very well spent when I got to avoid the crowds on the way back!

I like CrossRail, it has transformed travel across London, but I would not want to do a 345 to Heathrow with luggage!

Ive used HEx many times until I retired in 2010, and although the cost wasn't mine to copmplain about, I found that the experience was nothing special and certainly not worth £20 of my money. That was with the class 332s which were at leat different from any other trains in the southeast. Now they are class 387s, the very same class that was introduced to the Thameslink network in 2015, - in RUK terms, 'Thameslink cast offs'!
Whilst paying more might seem like a fair deal, it is a waste of limited paths to run fairly limited capacity trains on a shuttle service

 

[WelshBluebird]

but I like it and I'd hate to arrive at Heathrow from central London on a 345

Is a 387 really that much better? Granted I've only been on the GWR one's before but photos of the HX ones don't make them look much different, and I'd hardly say they are good enough to make it a massively better experience than the EL (certainly I'd hardly claim that my holiday has started once I step on board one!).

 

[plugwash]

To me the obvious soloution to the heathrow express platform issue would be to give the HEX onboard staff oyster/contactless readers and use those readers to determine which fare to charge.

 

[MattRat]

Yes - I walked the entire length of a Reading starter just prior to departure recently and practically every bay of four was occupied by one person. People want to look out of the window not stare at the person opposite.

Sounds more to me like they are treating public transport as if it was private transport, and want their own space.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Sounds more to me like they are treating public transport as if it was private transport, and want their own space.

Unless they are stopping other people from using the other 3 seats in the bay, I'm not sure how on earth you can make that assumption.

 

[matt_world2004]

Unless they are stopping other people from using the other 3 seats in the bay, I'm not sure how on earth you can make that assumption.

Often they are. They are blocking the other three seats with luggage.

 

[Falcon1200]

Sounds more to me like they are treating public transport as if it was private transport, and want their own space.

Not at all, when boarding a 345 I would always choose a transverse seat, not that the few they have are always available of course. But I would not, and cannot, stop three others joining me there!

Unless they are stopping other people from using the other 3 seats in the bay, I'm not sure how on earth you can make that assumption.

Indeed not. However;

Often they are. They are blocking the other three seats with luggage.

I have never seen that. And apart from anything else, if they have that much luggage, where else would they put it? (not that it is right to block seats with cases, etc)

 

[PeterC]

Definitely Euston-Watford (B1) and Broad Street-Watford (B2) were 6 car 501's (therefore the North London line east of Camden Road) but I have no recollection of Broad Street-Richmond (B4) being so at any time of day.

That goes with my memory too.

 

[matt_world2004]

Not at all, when boarding a 345 I would always choose a transverse seat, not that the few they have are always available of course. But I would not, and cannot, stop three others joining me there!



Indeed not. However;



I have never seen that. And apart from anything else, if they have that much luggage, where else would they put it? (not that it is right to block seats with cases, etc)

Many of the cases would fit under the seats

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It’s an interesting article, but plainly not the most knowledgeable. For example it claims the limiting factor on the amount t of trains leaving Paddington is platform occupancy rather than paths, which is something anyone who has been to Paddington can tell you is untrue.

The article is 100% correct if that is its assertion. Paddington may appear quiet at certain times each hour but it’s an illusion. Without the sort of grade separation that Euston, Kings Cross have etc to reach platforms on the opposite side, and with a pretty useless pair of platforms that are poorly connected to the ML (12 & 14), the current SX service level barely scrapes by, particularly in the peaks. GWR turn intercity trains around in 15 mins when good practice should dictate 30+ mins, simply to clear the platform for the next arrival. The minimum out/in margin is - at best - 4 mins which means on a 2-min headway you’re relying on finding a platforming sequence with 50% simultaneous moves in order to make maximum use of route capacity, which isn't realistic without masses of spare capacity in the stock diagrams (which they haven’t got.)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Many of the cases would fit under the seats

I read that post while actually sitting on a transverse dear on an Elizabeth line train so immediately looked at the seats. Yes you could put a bag under it but it would involve bending down, pushing it under and generally being a lot more of faff than simply plonking it in the seat or floor next to you. It wouldn't even occur to me to do that unless there was nowhere else to put it.

Right now my rucksack or on the seat next to me. That's not remotely any attempt to claim the seat, simply me having it in the most convenient and secure location. I would instantly move it if it looked like anyone needed that seat. I'd imagine the same is true of most people with similarly placed bags.

 

[matt_world2004]

I read that post while actually sitting on a transverse dear on an Elizabeth line train so immediately looked at the seats. Yes you could put a bag under it but it would involve bending down, pushing it under and generally being a lot more of faff than simply plonking it in the seat or floor next to you. It wouldn't even occur to me to do that unless there was nowhere else to put it.

Right now my rucksack or on the seat next to me. That's not remotely any attempt to claim the seat, simply me having it in the most convenient and secure location. I would instantly move it if it looked like anyone needed that seat. I'd imagine the same is true of most people with similarly placed bags.

The el was pretty full today and people had there was one seat occupied by a person and another three seats occupied by bags

Similar level of crowding in the rear three carriages . With quieter towards the front

 

[Techniquest]

Ive used HEx many times until I retired in 2010, and although the cost wasn't mine to copmplain about, I found that the experience was nothing special and certainly not worth £20 of my money. That was with the class 332s which were at leat different from any other trains in the southeast. Now they are class 387s, the very same class that was introduced to the Thameslink network in 2015, - in RUK terms, 'Thameslink cast offs'!
Whilst paying more might seem like a fair deal, it is a waste of limited paths to run fairly limited capacity trains on a shuttle service

I'm not saying it's an amazing experience, but I will happily pay the extra money for a Heathrow Express 387 over a 345. I'm not personally convinced the paths can be used more efficiently.

Is a 387 really that much better? Granted I've only been on the GWR one's before but photos of the HX ones don't make them look much different, and I'd hardly say they are good enough to make it a massively better experience than the EL (certainly I'd hardly claim that my holiday has started once I step on board one!).

I would disagree, a 387 is far superior to a 345! I did like the 332s more, admittedly, but I think they did a cracking job on the Express refurb of the 387s.

 

[Non Multi]

I have never seen that. And apart from anything else, if they have that much luggage, where else would they put it? (not that it is right to block seats with cases, etc)

I'd suggest the solution used on the Piccadilly line stock where there's designated spaces for large luggage. The empty space in front of the three tip up seats at the carriage ends should accommodate about 8 or 9 suitcases each.

 

[Taunton]

Definitely Euston-Watford (B1) and Broad Street-Watford (B2) were 6 car 501's (therefore the North London line east of Camden Road) but I have no recollection of Broad Street-Richmond (B4) being so at any time of day.

They were progressively reduced in the 1960s-70s. Originally 6-car sets (as were all services on the main DC Lines), they were cut to three, then the platform porters were withdrawn at the intermediate stations on the NLL. To handle dispatch the Richmond trains were given "Travelling Porters" to handle closing doors etc, they did not last for long because most travellers on the line were regulars and well trained, and the guard could handle the odd door left open. A North London subset (though not the Watford ones) then had the compartments stripped out, a home-made modification at Croxley depot I understand, to facilitate ticket checking.

 

[ATrainSpotter]

HEX should just be scrapped in my opinion. Replace the paths with fast airport services with GWR/Elizabeth line. Maybe even have a "fast" Elizabeth line service (similar to what the Underground has with peak time services on the met) which calls at limited stops out east, then run all stations through the core, and fast again at the other end. The infrastructure with a look on google earth appears to all be in place. With GWR, maybe have trains that come into Paddington with passengers from the west then go back out again to Heathrow, allowing those passengers onboard "direct" access to Heathrow

 

[Thirteen]

HEX should just be scrapped in my opinion. Replace the paths with fast airport services with GWR/Elizabeth line. Maybe even have a "fast" Elizabeth line service which calls at limited stops out east, then run all stations through the core, and fast again at the other end. With GWR, maybe have trains that come into Paddington with passengers from the west then go back out again to Heathrow, allowing those passengers onboard "direct" access to Heathrow

I suspect HEX is too much of a revenue generator for Heathrow to get rid of it. Unless they get a slice of the revenue from the EL then it's not going to happen.

 

[mrmartin]

HEX should just be scrapped in my opinion. Replace the paths with fast airport services with GWR/Elizabeth line. Maybe even have a "fast" Elizabeth line service which calls at limited stops out east, then run all stations through the core, and fast again at the other end. With GWR, maybe have trains that come into Paddington with passengers from the west then go back out again to Heathrow, allowing those passengers onboard "direct" access to Heathrow

Don't think fast EL services are possible into the core because of the track layout, at least without causing major conflicting moves.

GWR idea isn't bad though! Has anyone thought of this before? Allowing 5 mins for reversal, Bristol etc could have sub 2 hour access to heathrow in one train.