Elizabeth Line from Zone 4 to Zone 1 using a paper ticket Zone 1-3 Travelcard -- how?

[pyxbiz]

Anybody know the answer to this question?

I want to travel via the Elizabeth Line from Woolwich to Paddington.
I have a PAPER ticket "7-Day Travelcard" for Zones 1-3 (not loaded onto an Oystercard, but the paper ticket kind).
If I had boarded at Custom House, I could simply enter with my paper ticket and exit with the same paper ticket, as normal, since Custom House is in Zone 3 and Paddington is in Zone 1.
HOWEVER, Woolwich, which is where I want to start the journey, is in Zone 4. So presumably I won't be able to pass through the turnstiles with a Zone 1-3 paper ticket.
Therefore, I have to somehow get from Woolwich ONE STOP up the Elizabeth Line to Custom House.

If I use CASH to pre-buy a one-way ticket on the Elizabeth Line just one stop from Woolwich to Custom House, the fare is £6 (!!??!!). In fact, the fare would be £6 even if I traveled all the way to Paddington. So my Zone 1-3 would serve no purpose, even though in theory it should cover 95% of the journey.
The only way around this is to use a contactless debit card to beep in through the turnstiles at Woolwich, and then DEBARK AT CUSTOM HOUSE, and beep out, at which point the fare would only be £2. Then I would turn right back around and go through the turnstiles again, this time with my Zone 1-3 paper ticket.
The same would be true if I had an Oyster Card (which I don't), because Tfl adds a ~£2 "extension fare" to journeys outside the Travelcard Zone you have loaded.

So my question is: How can I ride DIRECTLY from Woolwich to Paddington using a paper Zone 1-3 Travelcard WITHOUT having to debark and re-enter (thus making the journey take much longer) OR having to pay £6 for a 2-minute ride between two adjacent stops?

As far as I can tell, it's not possible, which is very very frustrating. Anyone know a workaround?

 

[Watershed]

Anybody know the answer to this question?

I want to travel via the Elizabeth Line from Woolwich to Paddington.
I have a PAPER ticket "7-Day Travelcard" for Zones 1-3 (not loaded onto an Oystercard, but the paper ticket kind).
If I had boarded at Custom House, I could simply enter with my paper ticket and exit with the same paper ticket, as normal, since Custom House is in Zone 3 and Paddington is in Zone 1.
HOWEVER, Woolwich, which is where I want to start the journey, is in Zone 4. So presumably I won't be able to pass through the turnstiles with a Zone 1-3 paper ticket.
Therefore, I have to somehow get from Woolwich ONE STOP up the Elizabeth Line to Custom House.

If I use CASH to pre-buy a one-way ticket on the Elizabeth Line just one stop from Woolwich to Custom House, the fare is £6 (!!??!!). In fact, the fare would be £6 even if I traveled all the way to Paddington. So my Zone 1-3 would serve no purpose, even though in theory it should cover 95% of the journey.
The only way around this is to use a contactless debit card to beep in through the turnstiles at Woolwich, and then DEBARK AT CUSTOM HOUSE, and beep out, at which point the fare would only be £2. Then I would turn right back around and go through the turnstiles again, this time with my Zone 1-3 paper ticket.
The same would be true if I had an Oyster Card (which I don't), because Tfl adds a ~£2 "extension fare" to journeys outside the Travelcard Zone you have loaded.

So my question is: How can I ride DIRECTLY from Woolwich to Paddington using a paper Zone 1-3 Travelcard WITHOUT having to debark and re-enter (thus making the journey take much longer) OR having to pay £6 for a 2-minute ride between two adjacent stops?

As far as I can tell, it's not possible, which is very very frustrating. Anyone know a workaround?

Exiting and re-entering in with Oyster/contactless at Custom House will be your cheapest option; EL services run every 5 minutes and I don't think it would take you any longer than this to exit and re-enter. So it would hardly be making the journey take much longer.

But if you don't wish to do this, another alternative option is to use Oyster/contactless throughout (thus not making any use of your Travelcard). At a cost of £3.10 (off-peak) / £4.30 (peak), this is still cheaper than buying a single from the machines at Woolwich.

A paper ticket from Abbey Wood to Boundary Zone 3 is really the most appropriate ticket for your journey. At £2.90 it's marginally cheaper than the above option, although still more than using Oyster/contactless between Woolwich and Custom House. However, it is very unlikely that the ticket barriers at Woolwich would accept this ticket, or that the staff would let you through.

This is because TfL pretend that the EL's central section is an Underground line, and that therefore National Rail tickets (such as the above fare) are not valid on it. Whilst this policy is not at all correct from a legal standpoint, pragmatically speaking, you are unlikely to get anywhere arguing this point with staff on the ground. Therefore, I would suggest either of the first two options for a hassle-free journey.

 

[pyxbiz]

Exiting and re-entering in with Oyster/contactless at Custom House will be your cheapest option

Thanks, Watershed.

For reason outside the parameters of this discussion, my goal is to travel from Woolwich to Paddington as quickly as humanly possible, and the Elizabeth Line is custom-made for this exact journey. But debarking mid-journey and thus letting a train or two go by (I doubt I could get all the way to the exit at Custom House and back in under 5 minutes -- I'm not a fast walker), makes me lose 10 minutes in what is supposed to be just a 26-minute journey, increasing my travel time by 38% -- obviating the whole point of having the fast direct connection between the two stations.

I guess your second suggestion is my only option -- to use contactless for the entire journey, which for off-peak would be £3.10 -- but this makes me sad, because I wouldn't be using my Travelcard at all, rendering it useless, and wasted money.

Another glitch, irrelevant to this question and forum, is that my contactless debit card is issued by a US bank (just got it recently), and I don't yet know if the machines on the Elizabeth Line will accept them. The Tfl website says that "most" American contactless debit cards will work, but "some" will not work. The only way to know is to test it out in person. At which point, if it DOESN'T work, means that I'd have to buy a ticket at the ticket machines for £6. Ugh. I'm trying to avoid getting an Oyster card, but if my contactless card doesn't work at Woolwich station, I may be forced to get one.

During a long-ago visit to London I was staying next to a station that was just over the line in Zone 4. But I didn't realize that at first, so at that time I also had naively bought a Zone 1-3 Travelcard. In that instance, realzing my mistake, I decided to live dangerously by just boarding at the Zone 4 station without beeping in, and riding it 90 seconds to the next station which was in Zone 3, during which time I was technically unticketed and could have been fined, but I gambled that the odds of there being a ticket inspector during those 90 seconds on this outlying suburban line were quite slim (which was true). The Zone 4 station was the kind where there were no actual turnstiles -- travelers could just wave their Oyster cards at the kiosk/pole on the platform, which was ungated and free to access. The few people with paper tickets would just get on the train.

Presumably this is not true at Woolwich, and there are I assume turnstiles one must pass through to get to the platform, so I couldn't do the same 2-minute fare-skirting even if I wanted to! Not that anyone here would recommend such behavior in the first place.

 

[Watershed]

I guess your second suggestion is my only option -- to use contactless for the entire journey, which for off-peak would be £3.10 -- but this makes me sad, because I wouldn't be using my Travelcard at all, rendering it useless, and wasted money.

Unfortunately this is the downside of using a paper Travelcard; it isn't possible to easily extend it without paying more than you should. FWIW you can load a weekly (or longer) Travelcard on an Oyster card, and thereby benefit from automatically calculated extension fares. Or you can also use Oyster/contactless normally, and it will cap at the cheapest combination of Travelcards and extension fares based on your journey history.

Another glitch, irrelevant to this question and forum, is that my contactless debit card is issued by a US bank (just got it recently), and I don't yet know if the machines on the Elizabeth Line will accept them. The Tfl website says that "most" American contactless debit cards will work, but "some" will not work. The only way to know is to test it out in person. At which point, if it DOESN'T work, means that I'd have to buy a ticket at the ticket machines for £6. Ugh. I'm trying to avoid getting an Oyster card, but if my contactless card doesn't work at Woolwich station, I may be forced to get one.

I think buying an Oyster card is probably your best bet if your contactless card doesn't work the barriers. If it's worked for contactless payments elsewhere in the UK then I would expect it to work, though there are no guarantees.

I appreciate that public transport in London is not very tourist friendly, particularly for foreigners, with the choice of either having to pay an effectively non-refundable £5 deposit for an Oyster card and then top this up whenever you run low on balance, or hope your contactless card works. In either case quite possibly paying a 3% markup plus a fixed fee for each transaction.

 

[pyxbiz]

In the past, this same US debit card (pre-contactlessness) DID work for payments everywhere in the UK, but almost always required a signature on the receipt, which means I could never properly use the self-checkout kiosks at Tesco - I'd always have to summon a worker to hassle with the receipt signature, which often took longer than just waiting in the regular checkout line in the first place. The new version of the card now has the contactless chip, but I fear that the signature issue will still occur, which would nean that I couldn't just breeze through the turnstiles. The only way to know is just to test it out once I'm at Woolwich station! But by then I will have already had to make the decision about which format of Travelcard to get -- paper or Oyster, for traveling earlier on the visit. Sigh. Dilemmas, dilemmas. One day, we'll all have barcodes tattooed on our foreheads and our movements will be tracked and our accounts debited automatically wherever we go in the world. Looking forward to it! (/sarcasm)

 

[Haywain]

In the past, this same US debit card (pre-contactlessness) DID work for payments everywhere in the UK, but almost always required a signature on the receipt, which means I could never properly use the self-checkout kiosks at Tesco - I'd always have to summon a worker to hassle with the receipt signature, which often took longer than just waiting in the regular checkout line in the first place. The new version of the card now has the contactless chip, but I fear that the signature issue will still occur, which would nean that I couldn't just breeze through the turnstiles. The only way to know is just to test it out once I'm at Woolwich station! But by then I will have already had to make the decision about which format of Travelcard to get -- paper or Oyster, for traveling earlier on the visit. Sigh. Dilemmas, dilemmas. One day, we'll all have barcodes tattooed on our foreheads and our movements will be tracked and our accounts debited automatically wherever we go in the world. Looking forward to it! (/sarcasm)

If you are using Woolwich wouldn’t it just be easier to get a 1-4 Travelcard?

 

[Watershed]

In the past, this same US debit card (pre-contactlessness) DID work for payments everywhere in the UK, but almost always required a signature on the receipt, which means I could never properly use the self-checkout kiosks at Tesco - I'd always have to summon a worker to hassle with the receipt signature, which often took longer than just waiting in the regular checkout line in the first place. The new version of the card now has the contactless chip, but I fear that the signature issue will still occur, which would nean that I couldn't just breeze through the turnstiles. The only way to know is just to test it out once I'm at Woolwich station! But by then I will have already had to make the decision about which format of Travelcard to get -- paper or Oyster, for traveling earlier on the visit. Sigh. Dilemmas, dilemmas. One day, we'll all have barcodes tattooed on our foreheads and our movements will be tracked and our accounts debited automatically wherever we go in the world. Looking forward to it! (/sarcasm)

Ah, well if you haven't bought your Travelcard yet then I would go ahead and buy an Oyster card. There aren't really any advantages to buying a paper Travelcard over an Oyster card in your circumstances. You can then use your Oyster card as 'pay as you go' on each journey, and you will be appropriately capped at the daily/weekly rates (you can look these up on the TfL site). You may find this is in fact cheaper than a weekly Travelcard.

It will cost you £5 for the deposit but the balance can be refunded at any time if you no longer want the card. Refunds above £10 need to be done by phone, or by filling out an online form.

If you are living in the UK, then it may be better to get a UK card to avoid any issues or fees in connection with your US card. There are plenty of digital banks that will set you up quickly on an app.

 

[pyxbiz]

If you are using Woolwich wouldn’t it just be easier to get a 1-4 Travelcard?

For 90%-95% of my journeys, I will be traveling exclusively in Zones 1 to 3. I will likely only have to travel to/from Woolwich a few times during the trip -- not sure exactly how many times, though. Seems to be an unnecessary expense to buy a more-expensive Zone 1-4 Travelcard just to cover a couple of trips going one stop from Woolwich to Custom House -- hoping there was a cheaper way to do it.

Ah, well if you haven't bought your Travelcard yet then I would go ahead and buy an Oyster card. There aren't really any advantages to buying a paper Travelcard over an Oyster card in your circumstances. You can then use your Oyster card as 'pay as you go' on each journey, and you will be appropriately capped at the daily/weekly rates (you can look these up on the TfL site). You may find this is in fact cheaper than a weekly Travelcard.

Well, I'll be taking many many trips per day within Zones 1-3, and in the past (similar visits) it's worked out that the 7-day Zone 1-3 Travelcard was in fact the cheapest option.

I dislike the Oystercard for many reasons:

-- The person I travel with is uniquely inept at getting the card-readers to beep-in an Oystercard properly. In past trips (and with other transit systems with similar cards) something often goes wrong with my traveling partner's attempts to beep it properly, and we find ourselves having to be let in by the staff more often than not. The paper cards are idiot-proof, conversely, and we've never had a problem feeding them through.
— I don't like the fact that you can't see what the balance is on your Oyster card, nor what travelcards are loaded, nor their expiration dates -- it's just a blank unchanging piece of plastic. The paper tickets, conversely, show the travelcards loaded on them, the zones, the price, and their expiration dates. Reassuring.
-- I don't necessarily trust the machines to be deducting the correct amount. It makes me very nervous to have an open-ended spigot attached to my finances, merrily deducting money from my balance, without me knowing exactly what amount nor being able to monitor it in real time -- only finding out a month later how much I was overcharged for some journey, at which point it's far too much of a hassle to make it worthwhile to complain.
-- Oyster cards are thick heavy plastic, and I like keeping my wallet thin and light, so I prefer the thin-paper cards.
-- I don't like having to keep track of my Oyster card and always remember where it is when at home and to bring it with me on every trip to the UK, making it just another complication to keep track of during traveling. I like starting afresh with a new travelcard I get once I arrive.
-- I always have a vague uneasy feeling that the Oystercard is monitoring my every movement, and that there is some database detailing and archiving everywhere I've ever gone in London. I know this is ridiculous, but carrying around an Oystercard kind of feels like carrying around a GPS tracking device.
-- I'm kind of a Luddite and prefer the old-school feeling of the paper tickets, just on general principles.

I know I'm eccentric this way. But the Elizabeth Line (and the fact that Woolwich is in Zone 4) may be the final straw that convinces me to get an Oystercard anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

- I'm kind of a Luddite and prefer the old-school feeling of the paper tickets, just on general principles.

Isn't the option to buy a paper travelcard season being abolished very soon in any case?

Indeed, from 1 June 2022.
https://www.southwesternrailway.com...velcards/important-changes-travelcard-seasons

Important changes to Travelcard season tickets

From 1 June 2022, season tickets for travel wholly within the London fare zones (e.g. zones 1-6) will no longer be available on paper.

This change does not affect customers buying a rail season ticket from origins outside London with a Travelcard (e.g. Basingstoke to London Travelcard zones 1-6) and season tickets between two rail stations within the London fare zones (e.g. Richmond to London Terminals).

How do I continue to buy Travelcard season tickets?

For journeys wholly within the London fare zones, customers will need to use an Oyster card (£5) or a free smartcard.

You can get an Oyster card online and through various retail outlets across London. London Travelcard season tickets on Oyster can be bought on the TfL website, TfL app, at Oyster ticket shops, and many self-service ticket machines including SWR ticket machines at stations within the London fare zones.

You can also get a smartcard online or immediately from a number of SWR ticket offices. Season tickets on smartcards can be bought online, through the SWR app and from any SWR ticket office.

Alternatively, customers can use a contactless payment card and benefit from weekly capping.

 

[Watershed]

For 90%-95% of my journeys, I will be traveling exclusively in Zones 1 to 3. I will likely only have to travel to/from Woolwich a few times during the trip -- not sure exactly how many times, though. Seems to be an unnecessary expense to buy a more-expensive Zone 1-4 Travelcard just to cover a couple of trips going one stop from Woolwich to Custom House -- hoping there was a cheaper way to do it.

The cheapest way would be to use contactless or an Oyster card as this will automatically work out the cheapest combination of caps and extension fares.

I dislike the Oystercard for many reasons:

-- The person I travel with is uniquely inept at getting the card-readers to beep-in an Oystercard properly. In past trips (and with other transit systems with similar cards) something often goes wrong with my traveling partner's attempts to beep it properly, and we find ourselves having to be let in by the staff more often than not. The paper cards are idiot-proof, conversely, and we've never had a problem feeding them through.

This seems a somewhat curious problem. It really is as simple as touching the card to the yellow reader. That doesn't seem any harder than putting the ticket into the slot.

— I don't like the fact that you can't see what the balance is on your Oyster card, nor what travelcards are loaded, nor their expiration dates -- it's just a blank unchanging piece of plastic. The paper tickets, conversely, show the travelcards loaded on them, the zones, the price, and their expiration dates. Reassuring.

You can see all this on the ticket machines which are located at every station. And if you really want to see it mid-journey, you can register your Oyster card and look up everything in (near) real time on the TfL app. The ticket barriers also display your current balance and the amount deducted when you touch in and out.

-- I don't necessarily trust the machines to be deducting the correct amount. It makes me very nervous to have an open-ended spigot attached to my finances, merrily deducting money from my balance, without me knowing exactly what amount nor being able to monitor it in real time -- only finding out a month later how much I was overcharged for some journey, at which point it's far too much of a hassle to make it worthwhile to complain.

I'd understand that concern if you were using contactless, but with Oyster you have to specifically top it up. So if you like, you can check your journey history every time you do so. With Oyster, TfL station staff can usually apply a refund on the spot, if you have an incomplete journey for example.

-- Oyster cards are thick heavy plastic, and I like keeping my wallet thin and light, so I prefer the thin-paper cards.

There surely cannot be more than a millimetre of difference between the thickness of a paper ticket and an Oyster card? This seems a very tenuous argument to me!

-- I don't like having to keep track of my Oyster card and always remember where it is when at home and to bring it with me on every trip to the UK, making it just another complication to keep track of during traveling. I like starting afresh with a new travelcard I get once I arrive.

Fair enough. But at the cost of a £5 deposit, you can just get a new Oyster card every time you visit.

-- I always have a vague uneasy feeling that the Oystercard is monitoring my every movement, and that there is some database detailing and archiving everywhere I've ever gone in London. I know this is ridiculous, but carrying around an Oystercard kind of feels like carrying around a GPS tracking device.
-- I'm kind of a Luddite and prefer the old-school feeling of the paper tickets, just on general principles.

Unfortunately being a Luddite carries a (sometimes not insignificant) cost when travelling around London!

 

[pyxbiz]

Isn't the option to buy a paper travelcard season being abolished very soon in any case?

Indeed, from 1 June 2022.
https://www.southwesternrailway.com...velcards/important-changes-travelcard-seasons

That seems to only apply to SEASON tickets, not weekly tickets, which is what I generally get.

As far as I can tell, weekly Travelcard paper tickets, bought at National Rail stations within London, are still available, at least for now. But I have little doubt they will be phased out eventually. Until then, I hope to keep getting them if possible!

 

[alistairlees]

That seems to only apply to SEASON tickets, not weekly tickets, which is what I generally get.

As far as I can tell, weekly Travelcard paper tickets, bought at National Rail stations within London, are still available, at least for now. But I have little doubt they will be phased out eventually. Until then, I hope to keep getting them if possible!

It applies to weekly seasons and longer, where the season is wholly within zones 1-9. And it starts from Wednesday.

 

[pyxbiz]

This seems a somewhat curious problem. It really is as simple as touching the card to the yellow reader. That doesn't seem any harder than putting the ticket into the slot.

You'd be surprised at how easily it can and does go wrong, at least with my traveling partner. She just doesn't have the knack, no matter how often she practices. The machine either won't beep at all, or gives a double-beep, which is confusing and nervewracking, or she waits too long between the beep and passing through the turnstile (once you beep a countdown begins), and by the time she tries to pas through, the turnstile is locked and we have to contact staff. Yes, I know that every day millions of people beep their Oystercards and breeze though tube turnstiles without a second thought, yet somehow my traveling partner manages to klutz it up over half the time, often panicking when approaching the machine, making matters worse.

It applies to weekly seasons and longer, where the season is wholly within zones 1-9. And it starts from Wednesday.

Do you have a link for this new policy on the National Rail web site or the Tfl site? The link you provided was only for the South Western Railway system. Is the new no-paper rule also true for all other transit modes and rail systems? I can't find the info anywhere. Link?

 

[Watershed]

You'd be surprised at how easily it can and does go wrong, at least with my traveling partner. She just doesn't have the knack, no matter how often she practices. The machine either won't beep at all, or gives a double-beep, which is confusing and nervewracking, or she waits too long between the beep and passing through the turnstile (once you beep a countdown begins), and by the time she tries to pas through, the turnstile is locked and we have to contact staff. Yes, I know that every day millions of people beep their Oystercards and breeze though tube turnstiles without a second thought, yet somehow my traveling partner manages to klutz it up over half the time, often panicking when approaching the machine, making matters worse.

Well as of Wednesday, Oyster/contactless (or another smartcard) will be the only option for the weekly Zones 1-3 Travelcard.

Do you have a link for this new policy on the National Rail web site or the Tfl site? The link you provided was only for the South Western Railway system. Is the new no-paper rule also true for all other transit modes and rail systems? I can't find the info anywhere. Link?

The SWR link explains the policy which applies across all companies. Here is a link to a page on the internal part of the National Rail site, which has evidently already been updated in anticipation:

PLEASE NOTE: within the London Fare Zones Travelcard Seasons can only be issued on Oyster or TOC Smartcard. They are no longer available as paper tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You'd be surprised at how easily it can and does go wrong, at least with my traveling partner. She just doesn't have the knack, no matter how often she practices. The machine either won't beep at all, or gives a double-beep, which is confusing and nervewracking, or she waits too long between the beep and passing through the turnstile (once you beep a countdown begins), and by the time she tries to pas through, the turnstile is locked and we have to contact staff. Yes, I know that every day millions of people beep their Oystercards and breeze though tube turnstiles without a second thought, yet somehow my traveling partner manages to klutz it up over half the time, often panicking when approaching the machine, making matters worse.


Do you have a link for this new policy on the National Rail web site or the Tfl site? The link you provided was only for the South Western Railway system. Is the new no-paper rule also true for all other transit modes and rail systems? I can't find the info anywhere. Link?

Believe it, it's correct. Just TfL and Travelcard seasons of any length currently.

 

[Haywain]

she waits too long between the beep and passing through the turnstile (once you beep a countdown begins), and by the time she tries to pas through, the turnstile is locked and we have to contact staff.

The gate opens when the card is accepted and doesn’t close until someone has passed through it. How can that be difficult?

 

[Hadders]

I think you're making this much harder than it needs to be. If you haven't yet purchased a 7-day travelcard then get it issued on Oyster and put some PAYG credit on it for the odd time you go outside the zones covered by your travelcard. It might be better to simply use contactless for the whole week as a weekly cap is in place which is the same price as the 7-day travelcard although weekly capping operates on a Monday to Sunday basis whereas a 7-day travelcard can start on any day of the week.

-- The person I travel with is uniquely inept at getting the card-readers to beep-in an Oystercard properly. In past trips (and with other transit systems with similar cards) something often goes wrong with my traveling partner's attempts to beep it properly, and we find ourselves having to be let in by the staff more often than not. The paper cards are idiot-proof, conversely, and we've never had a problem feeding them through.

You touch an Oyster card on the card reader and the gates open. It really couldn't be simpler.

— I don't like the fact that you can't see what the balance is on your Oyster card, nor what travelcards are loaded, nor their expiration dates -- it's just a blank unchanging piece of plastic. The paper tickets, conversely, show the travelcards loaded on them, the zones, the price, and their expiration dates. Reassuring.

You can see the balance at a ticket machine, online or on the app. It really is no different to a bank account where you don't know exactly how much is in your account at any point in time unless you visit a cash machine for a balance enquiry, go online or use the app

-- I don't necessarily trust the machines to be deducting the correct amount. It makes me very nervous to have an open-ended spigot attached to my finances, merrily deducting money from my balance, without me knowing exactly what amount nor being able to monitor it in real time -- only finding out a month later how much I was overcharged for some journey, at which point it's far too much of a hassle to make it worthwhile to complain.

Just put £5 PAYG credit on the card, no need to link it to a bank account. Just top-up as necessary. The gates on exit normally show you the charge and you can get your journey history at a ticket machine, online or through the app. No need to wait a month

-- Oyster cards are thick heavy plastic, and I like keeping my wallet thin and light, so I prefer the thin-paper cards.

Your scraping the barrel looking for excuses now...

-- I don't like having to keep track of my Oyster card and always remember where it is when at home and to bring it with me on every trip to the UK, making it just another complication to keep track of during traveling. I like starting afresh with a new travelcard I get once I arrive.

How is that any different to carrying a paper ticket with you?

-- I always have a vague uneasy feeling that the Oystercard is monitoring my every movement, and that there is some database detailing and archiving everywhere I've ever gone in London. I know this is ridiculous, but carrying around an Oystercard kind of feels like carrying around a GPS tracking device.

You're overthing it now! Everyone is tracked by CCTV in any case. Oyster has been in use for almost 20 years and this really hasn't been an issue. I don't even think you have to register an Oyster card if you only load it with a 7-day season.

-- I'm kind of a Luddite and prefer the old-school feeling of the paper tickets, just on general principles.

I see. But you're prepared to use contactless payment cards. Do you use a mobile phone? Pay by cheque? By not adapting you're really making things much harder for yourself than they need to be.

 

[pyxbiz]

The gate opens when the card is accepted and doesn’t close until someone has passed through it. How can that be difficult?

If you hesitate long enough and don't pass through the opened gate, the gate will close by itself eventually. The deadline time is measured in seconds, not sure how long exactly, but she has managed to hesitate long enough that it closes before she gets through. Then you're stymied, and you have to be let through by staff. I know it sounds crazy, but it happens to her. She has a form of agoraphobia whereby if people are pressing up behind her in a rushed crowd, she panics and freezes for a bit -- just long anough for the gate to close. With the paper ticket, however, you are compelled to move forward to get the ticket as it comes out the other end of the machine, which propels her forward through the gate.

 

[Hadders]

If you hesitate long enough and don't pass through the opened gate, the gate will close by itself eventually. The deadline time is measured in seconds, not sure how long exactly, but she has managed to hesitate long enough that it closes before she gets through. Then you're stymied, and you have to be let through by staff. I know it sounds crazy, but it happens to her. She has a form of agoraphobia whereby if people are pressing up behind her in a rushed crowd, she panics and freezes for a bit -- just long anough for the gate to close. With the paper ticket, however, you are compelled to move forward to get the ticket as it comes out the other end of the machine, which propels her forward through the gate.

I'd recommend 'she' uses the wide gate, whether using a paper ticket or oyster/contactless. These are a fair bit slower in closing giving you more time to get through them.

 

[pyxbiz]

Well, that seems to confirm it -- as of Wednesday, I'll never again be able to get the paper ticket version of the 7-day Travelcard anyway, so my original question is now moot.

So I'll update it with a new related question:

If I buy a new empty Oystercard for £5, then load onto it a Zone 1-3 7-day Travelcard for £43.50, and (here's the key) DON'T load any additional monetary balance (JUST the Travelcard), and then later at some point try to initiate a journey at a Zone 4 station, will it let me through the turnstile in the first place? And even if it does let me thriugh, what then will happen when I try to exit at a Zone 1 station? Will I be required to add enough balance to pay the additional extra fare difference while within the paid area of the platform? Or must I get staff to let me out so I can "top up" once outside the gate, under their supervision?

 

[Haywain]

This is really starting to read like you are trying to create problems for yourself.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Have you thought about catching a bus?

 

[pyxbiz]

This is really starting to read like you are trying to create problems for yourself.

I'm not trying to create problems. I have been using the paper tickets for so long that they are very familiar and comfortable to me, whereas the Oystercards (and similar cards) feel alien and user-unfriendly. Where I live in the US, the transit system also already deprecated all paper tickets and moved to a system basically the same as the Oystercard (called the "Clipper" card here), and I have disliked it ever since it started, and my partner struggles with the beeping and gates constantly. We don't have travelcard passes here, and each journey must be paid for via the card individually, and it drives me crzy that I never know how much balance is on the card ahead of time, as the card always remains the same visually, whereas the previous paper tickets were always updated each time through ther gate with the new remaining balance. Not knowing what the balance is on the card has left me stranded at bus stops many times with a "Clipper" card that doesn't have enough balance for a journey, and there's no way to add balance at the stop or on the bus.

Anyway, I'm being dragged into the 21st century whether I like it or not!

Have you thought about catching a bus?

In much of the UK, I couldn't ride the local bus even if I wanted to! Many bus systems outside London now do not accept cash paid to the driver any more, and you MUST pay with a contactless credit/debit card, or have already pre-bought a local bus pass, which as a temporary traveler passing through isn't feasible. But my bank didn't even issue cards with the contactless chip until just a few weeks ago, so in the UK I was unable to board and ride buses, because I had no way to pay! (Except in London Zones 1-3 with my travelcard.)

But we're going off on a side track here-- Just want to be able to use the speed of the Elizabeth Line from Woolwich in Zone 4 to Paddington, that's all.

Also, I STILL don't yet know if my contactless debit card will even be accepted by the ticket machines, on either the bus or the train station. So I can't count on it. And with paper ticket now no longer in existence it's probably going to be Oystercard or nothing for me.

 

[Hadders]

If I buy a new empty Oystercard for £5, then load onto it a Zone 1-3 7-day Travelcard for £43.50, and (here's the key) DON'T load any additional monetary balance (JUST the Travelcard), and then later at some point try to initiate a journey at a Zone 4 station, will it let me through the turnstile in the first place?

No, it won’t let you through unless you have some PAYG credit stored on the card to pay for the extension to where your Travelcard becomes valid.

And even if it does let me thriugh, what then will happen when I try to exit at a Zone 1 station? Will I be required to add enough balance to pay the additional extra fare difference while within the paid area of the platform? Or must I get staff to let me out so I can "top up" once outside the gate, under their supervision?

As I understand it you would be able to exit through the barriers, and at this point your card would have a negative balance. You would not be allowed to enter the system again (even within the zones covered by your Travelcard) until you had topped up and cleared the negative balance.

 

[pyxbiz]

No, it won’t let you through unless you have some PAYG credit stored on the card to pay for the extension to where your Travelcard becomes valid.

As I understand it you would be able to exit through the barriers, and at this point your card would have a negative balance. You would not be allowed to enter the system again (even within the zones covered by your Travelcard) until you had topped up and cleared the negative balance.

OK, that answers my second question, well and truly. Thanks everyone!

Now onto a completely different topic, one that hopefully will be more easily answered:

What is the fastest/easiest/least-complicated/sneakiest way to transfer from the westbound Elizabeth Line to the westbound Piccadilly Line?

The Elizabeth Line manages to cross under the Paccadilly Line without ever actually intersecting it.

Obviously, one could just take a connecting line to get from one to the other, say, debark the E Line at Tottenham Court Road then walk the long tunnels to the Northern Line platform then ride the N line one stop to Leicester Square, then more pedestrian tunnels to the Piccadilly Line (or any other similar three-line connections via Farringdon, etc.).

But is there some sneaky clever solution that skips the intervening connecting leg of the journey? I know there is a "secret" tunnel from Farringdon station to Barbican station (not on the Pic Line, unfortunately), for example; is there some other little-known pedestrian tunnel between, say, Tottenham Court Road and Holborn (on the Piccadilly Line)? And even if there is no tunnel, would walking the quickest way on city stteets between the station on the E Line that is geographically closest to a station on the Piccadilly Line save any time, as compared to making two interchange transfers?

 

[Starmill]

There are no zones for London Buses. Travelcards for any zones are valid.

 

[pyxbiz]

There are no zones for London Buses. Travelcards for any zones are valid.

That's interesting -- I never knew that.

So, if a person bought the least-expensive Travelcard, covering just Zones 1 + 2 for rail, you could use that same card for unlimited bus rides all the way out to Zone 9, with no restrictions, for the duration that the card was valid? Quite a deal!

Another (increasingly trivial) question just occurred to me:

Since the Elizabeth Line is train service, do Railcard discounts apply to fares on the E Line? For example, we sometimes get a Two Together card, for 1/3 off all train ticket prices in the UK. Would I then also get 1/3 off any Elizabeth Line fares, in some putative scenario where I paid the fare as a separate purchase?

 

[danm14]

So, if a person bought the least-expensive Travelcard, covering just Zones 1 + 2 for rail, you could use that same card for unlimited bus rides all the way out to Zone 9, with no restrictions, for the duration that the card was valid? Quite a deal!

You can use any Travelcard on any London Bus, full stop. Even if the bus journey goes completely outside the zones, e.g. to Slough.

The same applies to London Trams, however the Travelcard must include any one or more of zones 3, 4, 5 or 6 to be valid on the Trams.

 

[Hadders]

Since the Elizabeth Line is train service, do Railcard discounts apply to fares on the E Line? For example, we sometimes get a Two Together card, for 1/3 off all train ticket prices in the UK. Would I then also get 1/3 any Elizabeth Line fares, in some putative scenario where I paid the fare as a separate purchase?

Elizabeth Line doesn't have special fares, it's part of London's zonal fares system. Railcard discounts apply on paper travelcards and on Oyster off peak fares but a Two Together (and Family & Friends and Network Railcards) cannot be added to an Oyster card.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I dislike the Oystercard for many reasons: .... -- I always have a vague uneasy feeling that the Oystercard is monitoring my every movement, and that there is some database detailing and archiving everywhere I've ever gone in London. I know this is ridiculous, but carrying around an Oystercard kind of feels like carrying around a GPS tracking device......

There's nothing vague about it - the Oyster system does indeed track you and keep a record of your movements. And a condition of use of the cards is that TfL are allowed to share that information with, eg, the police. This can be avoided by buying a card anonymously, not registering it, and always topping it up with cash. (Which precludes people with concessionary cards - eg oldsters - from being able to travel anonymously, since they have to have cards specifically registered to them.) Contactless bank cards (so presumably Oyster too) can be identified (with the right equipment) - and hence the holder's movements logged - without actually being used; ie you don't need to tap on anything for your card's presence to be recordable.

The gate opens when the card is accepted and doesn’t close until someone has passed through it. How can that be difficult?

The TfL gates certainly can and do close without waiting for a person to go through - there's a time limit, and if you're a bit slow for any reason (and many of us are at times) you can get whacked by the gates.