Elizabeth Line Platform Gaps - BBC News

[Crithylum]

Could they not have the middle door on that carriage locked out of use at EB? I’ve seen them doors locked when they used to use Paddington High Lever

This is completely unreasonable. There is an extremely minor curve. The scramble caused by having middle doors locked out will most likely result in more injury than the extra cm, in addition to greater overcrowding risk if dwell times are significantly increased (particularly during disruption). This isn't like Paddington where it is a terminus station so everyone has plenty of time to exit.

Are all the accidents occurning at one specific door position at Ealing Broadway? If so, possibly install a movable gap filler. TfL could call it a trial of the first gap filler in the UK.

Platform gap filler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

None of the media reports have specified a door position, however it has been deduced that it is mainly at the west end of platform 4, as the platform height is too low, and this is where the problem is worst. The horizontal gap is fairly standard. Raising the platform 100-200mm to the industry standard 915mm will bring it in line to the same gap found in almost all NR stations. Gap fillers are used for horizontal gaps, and would only result in an improvement if the platform was raised to the non-standard 1100mm, and moved away from the track to allow freight to still pass through

 

[edwin_m]

Generally it's expected if it's the first/last carriage of a train. "Passengers for X should be in the first Y carriages to leave the train". Whereas it's extremely rare for a middle carriage door to be locked out of service, normally only for technical failures - I don't think there's anywhere a middle carriage door is regularly locked out anywhere in the network? Therefore I think it would really confuse people and be difficult to communicate effectively to passengers.

As discussed some way back upthread, the middle door is sometimes locked out on EL trains using Paddington High Level, so the trains have the capability. However, these trains are usually at quieter times and therefore less busy, and being a terminus there is more time to board and alight.

 

[BlueLeanie]

It’s because it’s seen a big increase in usage and because people think the Elizabeth line is “new” so don’t know why it’s like this and the reporting is very light on how this is an existing station with grandfathered rights like thousands of others around the country.

Not everyone shares the same view that the 1950s risk of stepping out from a centre door of a 17M long DMU with 2ft wide doors where you had to open the window and lean out to open the door, and that same window/barely shoulder width doorway offered something to grasp onto when stepping out is the same as stepping out of a 23M long coach from the middle of two metre wide doors and nothing to grab onto should you stumble.

It's simply not good enough.

 

[Meerkat]

Could they not have the middle door on that carriage locked out of use at EB? I’ve seen them doors locked when they used to use Paddington High Lever

The 345s are walkthrough. If it was busy there would be chaos as people tried to work out if they were standing at a middle door.

 

[800001]

The 345s are walkthrough. If it was busy there would be chaos as people tried to work out if they were standing at a middle door.

Same as a tube train, where doors don’t open. And the doors have a sign that illuminates to say not in use.

 

[PG]

The 345s are walkthrough. If it was busy there would be chaos as people tried to work out if they were standing at a middle door.

Not unsolvable though - fit illuminated door not in use signs activated on approach to EB?

 

[Benjwri]

Not unsolvable though - fit illuminated door not in use signs activated on approach to EB?

Something which the Elizabeth line already has, although in visual representation of a person with an X over them…

 

[Meerkat]

Same as a tube train, where doors don’t open. And the doors have a sign that illuminates to say not in use.

How visible would that be on a packed 345 and how easy would it be to get to the right door?

 

[800001]

How visible would that be on a packed 345 and how easy would it be to get to the right door?

How easy is it on a packed tube train?
It’s a suggestion!
A better suggestion than some ones of demolishing EB stations , relocating it and building 2 new freight lines

 

[AM9]

How easy is it on a packed tube train?
It’s a suggestion!
A better suggestion than some ones of demolishing EB stations , relocating it and building 2 new freight lines

But haven't we already decided that the difference between the end and centre doors' horizontal gap is about 1cm and not the real issue?

 

[800001]

But haven't we already decided that the difference between the end and centre doors' horizontal gap is about 1cm and not the real issue?

One person states 1cm

 

[Crithylum]

But haven't we already decided that the difference between the end and centre doors' horizontal gap is about 1cm and not the real issue?

For myself, yes

There are thousands of platforms with far greater curvature. This is just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Fix the vertical gap and accept that level boarding outside of the core was not possible with what was offered in the 2010s (although personally I think the tender should’ve specified low floors to force manufacturers to get their act together)

One person states 1cm

That was my estimate
I drew a straight line on Google maps, and found that the line was 50cm further from the platform in the middle than the ends. As the distance is proportional to the length of the chord squared (for small gaps relative to length), I estimated for a single carriage it would be about a cm
Probably should measure next time I’m there

 

[AM9]

One person states 1cm

But others, (including you) are discussing the viability of fixing it by sdo.

 

[800001]

But others, (including you) are discussing the viability of fixing it by sdo.

I don’t know the difference in gap, have never stated the differenxe in gap, my ‘discussion’ is purely based off the bbc news article.

 

[Horizon22]

Also worth mentioned that even existing users are surprised by this because the problem is made significantly worse by the middle door on a curve, which is as I understand it where the accidents happened. This middle door creates an added complexity which other lines don't face

Yes the middle door creates most of the problems. At Paddington the curve was so severe, coaches were locked out on arrival/departure.

They manage to not open doors on whole carriages of the tube at certain stations, people manage.
They don’t open a full carriage of EL at Hanley?
Plenty of announcements approaching station, graphics displayed on the PIS on board etc

I presume you mean Hanwell?

It’s easier when it’s the rear/front of a train. In the middle, it’s not quite as easy.

ASDO is however probably the easiest of all solutions (beyond very clear and specific markings/signage at the platform regarding the gap) but does of course present its own challenges.

For myself, yes

There are thousands of platforms with far greater curvature. This is just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Fix the vertical gap and accept that level boarding outside of the core was not possible with what was offered in the 2010s (although personally I think the tender should’ve specified low floors to force manufacturers to get their act together)

All incidents have been at the same place on the platform though, which suggests it is not solely the vertical gap causing issues & therefore it is likely to be the combination causing a particular issue at a specific point.

Not everyone shares the same view that the 1950s risk of stepping out from a centre door of a 17M long DMU with 2ft wide doors where you had to open the window and lean out to open the door, and that same window/barely shoulder width doorway offered something to grasp onto when stepping out is the same as stepping out of a 23M long coach from the middle of two metre wide doors and nothing to grab onto should you stumble.

It's simply not good enough.

No, but nor is it suitable to suggest every single platform out of alignment in the country needs to rebuilt.

Something which the Elizabeth line already has, although in visual representation of a person with an X over them…

How visible would that be on a packed 345 and how easy would it be to get to the right door?

The PIS also states the doors won't open in the affected coach (if you wanted all 3 to not open). There's probably a very easy way to program in "the middle door on this coach will not open at the next station". Although people were always smashing the door open button at Paddington on the locked out coach even after 3-4 years, so some things just can't be taught (and there's a significant one-time user element with the airport traffic too).

 

[Purple Train]

The PIS also states the doors won't open in the affected coach (if you wanted all 3 to not open). There's probably a very easy way to program in "the middle door on this coach will not open at the next station".

I think there was that at Paddington anyway, wasn't there?

Although people were always smashing the door open button at Paddington on the locked out coach even after 3-4 years, so some things just can't be taught (and there's a significant one-time user element with the airport traffic too).

You can't really work around that, though. On a few occasions I've had to press the buttons for people who just stand there (and not for tourists!) - and, while a larger proportion would hit the middle button whatever, it still wouldn't be a majority and it could be mitigated, for instance with X markings on the platform. That being said, raising the platform is still the best way out in my opinion.

 

[Horizon22]

I think there was that at Paddington anyway, wasn't there?

You can't really work around that, though. On a few occasions I've had to press the buttons for people who just stand there (and not for tourists!) - and, while a larger proportion would hit the middle button whatever, it still wouldn't be a majority and it could be mitigated, for instance with X markings on the platform. That being said, raising the platform is still the best way out in my opinion.

I'm not sure it was always, reliably on the PIS; I think the door just didn't open on occasion but I may be wrong.

And yes sometimes, you just have to accept no mitigation is fool-proof and is the option going forward. The best (depends on how you classify 'best'!) solution might be raising the platform but not if it is so cost-prohibitive and disuptive to the line where other alternatives are available.

 

[Crithylum]

Yes the middle door creates most of the problems. At Paddington the curve was so severe, coaches were locked out on arrival/departure.

I am going to disagree on this one. The curvature of the Central line p6 seems more than the problematic p4 from satellite imagery. Clapham Junction is far worse, even for the available platforms (screenshot does NOT include platform 8)

Furthermore, of the 2 photos in the 3 BBC articles showing people boarding a train, one is at an end door, and the other is inconclusive (without very detailed analysis). The only mention of "curve" in the 3 articles was:

The curve of the track meant the passenger was difficult to detect on the drivers' CCTV, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) found. The RAIB found London Underground's risk assessments did not identify extra risks caused by curved platforms at certain stops.

regarding a fatality on the Bakerloo line, unrelated to Ealing Broadway.

Personally, I believe the reference to "left", "middle", and "right" in one of the articles was with regards to which part of the door is used, not the actual door on the carriage.

 

[Jimini]

Girl, 4, falls four times due to huge gap at Elizabeth line station

Agamjot Kaur was left unable to walk for hours after smashing her knee

www.standard.co.uk

Apols for the poor formatting; currently on my phone at the moment. Article from tonight’s Standard below / in link. Uncle Albert and manhole covers springs to mind…

Girl, 4, falls four times due to huge gap between Elizabeth line trains and Ealing Broadway platform
Agamjot Kaur was left unable to walk for hours after smashing her knee

A four-year-old girl was left unable to walk for hours after she fell from an Elizabeth line train at Ealing Broadway station in west London.
Agamjot Kaur fell and smashed her right knee in early June and “took four or five days to recover”, her father Brijesh Singh told the Standard.

The young girl has now fallen four times at the platform in the past three months.

The fall is the latest in a series of incidents on the Elizabeth line at the west London station, with the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan apologising to passengers who have been injured because of a large gap between the train and platform.
Mr Singh said he could not understand “why they left so much space” between Elizabeth line services and the train station, which is owned by Network Rail.

He said: “(Agamjot) was not able to walk on the day she fell. For six or seven hours she didn’t walk at all. She just lay down or stayed in a room.
“There is a huge gap when boarding the train. I’ve seen people falling down many times.
“I saw an old lady who fell down. She was not able to stand back on her feet for five minutes.
He added: “The woman looked over 70. She fell down and she was crying. I think she injured her right ankle. She was not okay.”

Three passengers have already suffered serious injuries at the station, BBC London reported.
Rolf Kern, 82, is considering legal action after he gashed his shin while trying to board a service at the station.

Weeks earlier Eric Leach broke his foot and bruised his knee as he stepped off a train at the same platform.
A third passenger also contacted the BBC after being seriously injured using the platform.
Lucy Daramola told the broadcaster she was knocked unconscious and went to hospital after cutting her shins while getting on the train in July 2022.
She blamed the height of the gap and warned someone could be killed at the location.

Transport for London (TfL) has said it is in urgent talks with Network Rail to see what can be done to reduce the gap between the train and the platform at Ealing Broadway station.
The height difference at the station complies with required safety standards but TfL added it would do everything it can to ensure customers are not injured while going about their daily business.

Lilli Matson, TfL’s Chief Safety, Health and Environment Officer, said: “We are very sorry that this young girl was hurt at Ealing Broadway station and we wish her a full and speedy recovery.
“Safety is our number one priority and we are in urgent talks with Network Rail, who owns the station, to explore what can be done to reduce the gap between the train and platform.
“We have also worked with our operator, MTR-Elizabeth line, to develop a range of enhancements at the station to increase customer safety until this can be done.
“This includes the installation of a new barrier to enhance the management of passenger flow, and the extension of a handrail.”

A Network Rail spokesperson added: “We are very sorry to hear about the recent injuries suffered by a small number of passengers at Ealing Broadway.
“Safety is our number one priority and we previously met with the station user group to listen to their concerns.
“We are not currently funded to do improvements to the platforms; however we are working closely with our partners at TfL and MTR Elizabeth line to review what might be done as part of our joint safety improvement plan.”

 

[davews]

If it happens so frequently at Ealing Broadway why do we never here of similar accidents elsewhere, eg Clapham Junction? Every time I arrive at platforms 11 etc I struggle to get down and I consider myself relatively fit.

 

[AM9]

If it happens so frequently at Ealing Broadway why do we never here of similar accidents elsewhere, eg Clapham Junction? Every time I arrive at platforms 11 etc I struggle to get down and I consider myself relatively fit.

That's because it is lazy journalism whipping up panic where none exists. Then the irrational fears of the public are triggered to do their job for them.

 

[Recessio]

That's because it is lazy journalism whipping up panic where none exists. Then the irrational fears of the public are triggered to do their job for them.

I wouldn't say it's lazy journalism and irrational if people are being injured. This is very much a "this railway would be great if it wasn't for all these passengers" view.

As for other locations like Clapham Junction, it's probably just underreported. But also, given the excellent accessibility of the Crossrail core, the juxtaposition to the steps out West is far more noticeable and unexpected than on Southwestern where it's expected you'll need ramps etc, especially as the Elizabeth Line opened recently so people don't expect it (as the regular punter doesn't know/care that the GWML isn't new, they expect a "new" railway everywhere on EL.)

 

[stuu]

If a child has an accident somewhere like this, once is down to the circumstances at the station. If it happens three further times doesn't parental responsibility come into it?

 

[zwk500]

If a child has an accident somewhere like this, once is down to the circumstances at the station. If it happens three further times doesn't parental responsibility come into it?

I'd argue the opposite. If something happens lots of times despite people being aware of the danger, there's a problem with the design.

 

[Haywain]

I'd argue the opposite. If something happens lots of times despite people being aware of the danger, there's a problem with the design.

If it happens a lot of times to the same child there is definitely some element of parental responsibility.

 

[stuu]

I'd argue the opposite. If something happens lots of times despite people being aware of the danger, there's a problem with the design.

Sorry no. If you know your child has been hurt somewhere previously, then change something next time. Get off first and pick them up? Letting your child get injured four times is on the parents, 100% (unless they are disabled or something)

 

[BlueLeanie]

Why as a group are we still victim blaming a vulnerable child for falling on a platform that we know is only considered "acceptable" due great great great great great great grandfather "rights".

No10 needs to get on the case and fund Network Rail to fix these issues across the Great British Railways network.

 

[Haywain]

Why as a group are we still victim blaming a vulnerable child for falling on a platform that we know is only considered "acceptable" due great great great great great great grandfather "rights".

Who is blaming the child?

 

[SynthD]

we know is only considered "acceptable" due great great great great great great grandfather "rights".

Is that true? Look at new stations that have freight running through them.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why as a group are we still victim blaming a vulnerable child for falling on a platform

Nobody is blaming the (4-year old) child, just questioning why after the first unpleasant accident her parents did not seemingly take more care?