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Elizabeth Line Platform Gaps - BBC News

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norbitonflyer

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He is being a bit disingenuous saying it's a new station. It's been there since 1838, so the gap there is nothing new.
 

Camberman

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True, though would I be right in presuming there was a reason for not altering the platform as part of the Elizabeth Line works?
 

blueberry11

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The Elizabeth line (EL), along with the trains is new, but Ealing Broadway station isn't. I think there is a requirement that all new platforms are to be in a straight line.

The new Greater Anglia (745/755) and Merseyrail (777) trains should not require an external ramp as they have their own and are almost level with the platform.
 

Meerkat

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That step down shown in one of the photos surely can not be acceptable for a station as busy as Ealing Broadway, used by trains as busy as Crossrail?!!
Grandfather rights blah blah, but surely there should be some trigger points where usage increase means stations must be improved? Isn't that how it works for level crossings?
 

rower40

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Ealing Broadway is the first Elizabeth Line station to the west of the Central core that freight trains go through the platforms (on a regular basis). Does that have some bearing on the positioning of the platform? I'm not maybe as au fait as others here with the relative loading gauge of freight trains, Elizabeth Line stock, and normal passenger stock.
 

Camberman

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I agree this should have been a trigger point. When the scope of the EL works was decided presumably a decision was made not to take the opportunity to bring these platforms up to current standards?
 

edwin_m

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The platforms at Ealing Broadway are straight (as close as I can tell from aerial maps). Clearance to passing freight trains would prevent them being raised to level with the train steps without creating an unacceptable lateral gap, but wouldn't prevent some raising. Other issues could be the increased slope that it would create front to back on the platform, and the usual one of cost.
 

SynthD

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This would be easy to fix, if it weren’t for other trains on the line. Unlike the core, these platforms have to be compatible with GWR and freight trains.

What alteration was not made?
 
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zwk500

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This would be easy to fix, if it weren’t for other trains on the line.
Not necessarily. Even if there were no other trains, raising a surface by some 200mm is going to impact on anything already on the existing surface, such as a lift or a waiting room. Everything mounted to the platform would need to be checked to see if it can be left or if it needs to be removed and then replaced after. Any connections to services buried in the platform that might need lengthening. If you leave things where they are, is there space to slope the platform down to them, and so on.
None of this is impossible by any means. But I'd say if there had been no other trains it'd be easier to have lowered the track than raise the platform.
 

BrianW

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While recognising that the 'gap' at Ealing Broadway cannot be called 'non-compliant' because of the weasley wording of application of the 'standard' to existing platforms, this must surely have been considered at design stage. I also recognise the difficulties (and costs) relating to 'modifying' existing steps, slopes, lifts etc, but Ealing Broadway is not a little used backwater. Is it the only Elizabeth Line served station with such an enormous gap- was it a problem in former arrangements? Surely it would be unacceptable to make the situation worse?

(With reference to another thread what about vertical gaps between Platform and tube trains there?)
 

Alfie1014

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Isn’t the issue that TfL went with a level height in the core (new) stations of 1100mm rather than the national standard of 915mm. Whilst the latter would not have eliminated the gaps or offered level boarding throughout it would have been closer to the averages of 850mm on the GWML and 1000 on the GEML?
 

HSTEd

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Isn’t the issue that TfL went with a level height in the core (new) stations of 1100mm rather than the national standard of 915mm. Whilst the latter would not have eliminated the gaps or offered level boarding throughout it would have been closer to the averages of 850mm on the GWML and 1000 on the GEML?
This would have made it difficult to serve Heathrow, because the platforms were built for 1100mm there, and are ultimately not under the control of the railway.
 

plugwash

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The new Greater Anglia (745/755) and Merseyrail (777) trains should not require an external ramp as they have their own and are almost level with the platform.
Unfortunately the crossrail core went for level-boarding with high platforms. This essentially rules out a GA/Merseyrail style solution to level boarding outside the core.

HS2 is poised to do the same :(
 

td97

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Unfortunately level boarding at the 10 new central stations was designed with the use case of high floor stock.
It can never really change -
  • Platforms on the existing network (GWML/EAML) cannot be built to 1100mm as they would foul mainline stock and freight wagons.
  • Worth noting that Ealing Broadway (and legacy GWML/EAML) have compliant platforms to the national standard offset 915mm, and level boarding could be provided today with low floor e.g. Stadler Flirt stock.
  • The Elizabeth line central stations are built to 1100mm, so reducing to 915mm would be a mega expensive exercise in platform lowering, or raising the slab track.
  • If point 3 was to be undertaken, level boarding with 345s would no longer be the case at central stations. So now a new fleet of trains is required...
Modifying the platforms at Heathrow would have been small change in comparison.
 

setdown

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He is being a bit disingenuous saying it's a new station. It's been there since 1838, so the gap there is nothing new.
The station has been completely overhauled, a lot of money has gone into the new entrance/gate line area. He's probably referring to that...if they were spending so much upgrading the station, maybe the platforms should have been looked at as well.
 

Deepgreen

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An old station, with different train profiles using it. Altering platforms to suit a much higher boarding would be horrendously expensive. Clapham Junction, for example, has/had until recenty some far worse steps/gpas on sharply-curved platforms. A new train service does not automatically mean everything is perfect, even at the busiest of all stations. One solution would be to fit the EL trains with extending ramps, but they have their own problems such as people in the way on the platform, reliability, etc.
 

setdown

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Doesn't have to be the whole platform though does it? I know at least Waterloo + City tube line has a 'hump' halfway down the platform for level access, probably lots of other tube stations too. Even Northwich National Rail has a hump.

NORTHWICH RAIL PASSENGERS GET THE HUMP
Passengers using Northwich rail station on the Manchester to Chester line are going to find it a whole lot easier to get on and off trains once Network Rail installs a ‘Harrington Hump’ on each platform.


Funded by Northern Rail and Cheshire West & Chester Council, work will start on Monday 21 March and could be completed by the weekend. The humps will be fixed on the platforms to correspond with the normal stopping place of the trains’ disabled access door.


Jo Kaye, Network Rail route director, said: “We have found a novel solution to an age old problem that has caused concern for numerous potential rail passengers throughout the country who simply could not travel by train because of the low platform height.


“It is the ideal solution for stations that have a small number of passengers and therefore the comparatively high cost of completely rebuilding the platforms is not viable.”

If Northwich warrants it, I think Ealing Broadway might also!
 

H&I

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It seems like the lack of level boarding at the vast majority of mainline railway stations, even busy ones, is something that is very difficult to fix in the UK.
 

TheTallOne

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Not necessarily. Even if there were no other trains, raising a surface by some 200mm is going to impact on anything already on the existing surface, such as a lift or a waiting room. Everything mounted to the platform would need to be checked to see if it can be left or if it needs to be removed and then replaced after. Any connections to services buried in the platform that might need lengthening. If you leave things where they are, is there space to slope the platform down to them, and so on.
None of this is impossible by any means. But I'd say if there had been no other trains it'd be easier to have lowered the track than raise the platform.
I’m guessing it’d be easier to lower the track than raise the platform height? As long as nothing buried under the track like sewers etc

Doesn’t help with the other gap though, just the height.
 

mangyiscute

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Doesn't have to be the whole platform though does it? I know at least Waterloo + City tube line has a 'hump' halfway down the platform for level access, probably lots of other tube stations too. Even Northwich National Rail has a hump.

NORTHWICH RAIL PASSENGERS GET THE HUMP


If Northwich warrants it, I think Ealing Broadway might also!
Although for passengers alighting, unless they are in the know they will most likely be alighting from a door not by the hump
 

SLC001

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I would like to see the risk assessment for this platform. Likelihood of it happening (small) x consequences (severe, life changing perhaps). So often you see this and the case is made for change. Should something happen, subsequent court case probably finds against the rail company. But until it happens, we take a risk simply because the cost is too great. What value do you put on life? (not much given the violence in our cities but that is off topic really).
Unusually I took a train the other day. Loaded with two heavy suitcases (where do you put them LNW Trains?), we arrived at Northampton, our destination, and were warned to get off the train first before grabbing hold of our cases to pick them up. Actually, a sensible announcement as my first instinct was to pick them up and then step off the train.
 

Haywain

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Doesn't have to be the whole platform though does it? I know at least Waterloo + City tube line has a 'hump' halfway down the platform for level access, probably lots of other tube stations too. Even Northwich National Rail has a hump.

NORTHWICH RAIL PASSENGERS GET THE HUMP


If Northwich warrants it, I think Ealing Broadway might also!
A Harrington Hump does not allow level boarding, as far as I know. It is a way of bringing low platforms up to a normal height to allow ramps to be used.

I’m guessing it’d be easier to lower the track than raise the platform height? As long as nothing buried under the track like sewers etc
In an ideal world you would bring part of the platform up to allow level boarding, not the whole platform. But there are reasons for not doing it as covered above.
 

MarkyT

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It seems like the lack of level boarding at the vast majority of mainline railway stations, even busy ones, is something that is very difficult to fix in the UK.
It's not really that difficult. but some recent strategic mistakes have been made. We have a more standardised platform height than most European networks, already at a fairly high 3ft. Not all platforms exactly match that clearly but a large majority already do, and it's more achievable in future rebuilds than 1100mm or more. While over the last few decades European operators have been quietly rebuilding platforms and buying new lower-floor trains to match their new standards, the UK industry has seemed to stand back and say we're alright we've got high platforms already. Except that we weren't alright at all and the facts that some small segments of national infrastructure like parts of the Elizabeth Line have been built with extra high platforms, and either Harrington humps or being met with ramps are the solutions elsewhere, are testament to that.

A low floor option wasn't available for the newly developed Bombardier Aventra bodyshell design, first delivered only a decade ago, which has once again locked many parts of the SE into high floor for the life of these fleets. Meanwhile, the Level-Boarding revolution has continued relentlessly in Europe to the point it is becoming quite rare to encounter a non-LB experience in many places. I hope after a few small add-on orders to recent fleets from Derby they will be the last Aventras and Alstom will abandon the design and re-equip the plant to build a new 3ft floor train for the UK, just as they are building for Irish Rail currently with their X'trapolis design in Poland. That new bodyshell will be approved in the EU, so cross-acceptance should be straightforward and that could put Alstom in a good place for many of the upcoming UK regional renewals. The Irish trains will include battery-equipped examples, so in a few years, it could be a well-known, proven design suitable for many UK applications, and hopefully also being built at Derby.

As a new bodyshell design from the last decade or so, Bombardier's Aventra could have been engineered to have a lower floor from the start, but all stakeholders appear to have been institutionally blind to that possibility, despite what was going on all over Europe and further afield. I admit to being gobsmacked by what appeared to be niche solutions a couple of decades ago for low floor on rural branches. I kind of felt there would always be big high floor Eurofimas and ICEs, accessed by multiple steps at smaller stations. Today most trains in service and almost all being ordered new are level boarding at a small family of platform heights standardised under TSIs.

A similar story is now unfolding over HS2 rolling stock. With only three brand new stations, with the higher platforms, the majority of stations served by the new trains will now be existing ones having a traditional British vertical gap with steps at the doors. Alstom or Talgo could have proposed a 913mm solution with their all-trailer passenger accommodation configurations sandwiched between end power cars, but that would have conflicted with another HS2 requirement for distributed power, the Japanese preference for traction architecture, and the high speed power bogies cannot be accommodated currently under a continuous (another HS" requirement) 3ft floor, whereas trailer wheels usually can somehow with wheelboxes in the saloons or at extremities with a shared articulated bogie configuration. Alstom's TGV-M could theoretically have some traction motors and associated systems above the articulated bogies at the car ends; the continuous level floor gangway is actually on the upper deck of these bi-level trains. SNCF have only ordered the end power car configuration so far, and Alstom now claims this is lighter in weight overall, less complex, more reliable and cheaper than traction equipment spread throughout the train. The other major fleet of Avelias being delivered, to Amtrack in the USA, also have end power cars and have unpowered tilting single-level passenger cars between, with a ~4ft floor height matching US high platforms for LB on the electrified parts of the network it will use.

Talgo's Avril as supplied for Spain and also with end power cars, is both level boarding at matching 760mm HS platforms and has a continuous level floor throughout the passenger accommodation, with the inter-car gangway passing between the tops of the two individual wheels of the patent articulated steering wheelsets. These trains could likely be adapted for 913mm platforms in a UK profile bodyshell.

Doesn’t help with the other gap though, just the height.
Modern level boarding trains also usually have moving gap filler steps that can close a horizontal gap. Many can adjust to varying gaps so can also assist on curves where the platfrom has to be set back a little to clear end or centre throw.
 
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Deepgreen

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Doesn't have to be the whole platform though does it? I know at least Waterloo + City tube line has a 'hump' halfway down the platform for level access, probably lots of other tube stations too. Even Northwich National Rail has a hump.

NORTHWICH RAIL PASSENGERS GET THE HUMP


If Northwich warrants it, I think Ealing Broadway might also!
Even a small part of the platform at the right level would presumably foul the envelope for something, though. They can work on the Underground because only one stock is used per line, but with freights, etc., it is far more complex.
 

zwk500

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How does UK have some of the highest railway platform (915mm) and train heights (1100mm) in Europe then, despite our small loading gauge?
In short, because the UK went first. Early railway carriages were based on (or converted from) existing stage coaches. Later on other railways decided for various reasons (not least of which cost) to go with low platforms, and by then designs had moved on somewhat.
 

MarkyT

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In short, because the UK went first. Early railway carriages were based on (or converted from) existing stage coaches. Later on other railways decided for various reasons (not least of which cost) to go with low platforms, and by then designs had moved on somewhat.
UK had some low platforms on minor railways. Many on narrow gauge survive. Some railmotors and auto-trains introduced in the 1920s and 30s could board from ground or near ground level at cheap halts with folding onboard steps, but had nothing like level boarding. I assume that eventually the 3ft UK standard height was legislated. The solebar height of trains hasn't really changed in nearly two centuries whether in the UK or more broadly in Europe. We mostly had the best and most widespread 'easy step' boarding, but mainland Europe has since quickly overtaken us on LB. DBs ICE has been a notable exception, but the recent order for ICE-Ls from Talgo may be changing that.
 

Snow1964

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He is being a bit disingenuous saying it's a new station. It's been there since 1838, so the gap there is nothing new.
The station opened about 8 months after the line

The two platforms used by Elizabeth line were added when line was quadrupled around 1875

Platforms 1 and 2 (rarely used by Elizabeth line trains) had dual gauge tracks until early 1890s, so I suspect gap was even bigger on standard gauge trains.
 

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