Elizabeth Line Routeing Points

[Benjwri]

Is it worth someone rocking up to City Thameslink ticket office and asking for such a ticket? What do you expect to be offered? I'm certainly up for that one if it would help. 99.99% of people would just use PAYG of course.

They almost certainly just get a Zones U1234 to Hanwell ticket no?

 

[JonathanH]

They almost certainly just get a Zones U1234 to Hanwell ticket no?

U1 to Hanwell would be more likely, as the switch from "underground" is at Paddington.

 

[Benjwri]

U1 to Hanwell would be more likely, as the switch from "underground" is at Paddington.

Yes I chose U1234 though as this is the fare with the smallest amount of ‘zones’ available, there isn’t a U1 fare defined.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes I chose U1234 though as this is the fare with the smallest amount of ‘zones’ available, there isn’t a U1 fare defined.

Ah, should have checked, presumably that is some function of the stations out to West Drayton long having been on the TfL fare scale?

 

[Benjwri]

Ah, should have checked, presumably that is some function of the stations out to West Drayton long having been on the TfL fare scale?

Yeah fares which have been taken over by the Liz Line tend to be priced in the same way as GTR do it, where they use all the zones passed through even on the NR train.

 

[MrJeeves]

The absence of an indicated associated Routeing Point doesn't prevent there from being permitted routes by virtue of NRCoT 13.1.1 or 13.1.2 (direct trains and the shortest route). The latter, in particular, would cover quite a large number of journeys, due to the Elizabeth line's route being quite direct.

Except, of course, that the core doesn't have any electronic distance links, making buying tickets valid by virtue of this rather tricky.

The relevant mileages do exist in the NRT mileages document from Network Rail, though.

 

[miklcct]

The omission of Bond Street etc. from the Pink Pages is quite deliberate. Indeed I seem to recall a brief that alluded to this, around the time of the core section's opening. TfL want to treat the core section as an Underground line for ticketing purposes. That's why they didn't want to create any new permitted routes through the core.

They presumably thought that any 'legitimate' cross-London journeys would be permitted anyway by virtue of the Maltese cross, and journeys to/from the 'core' stations could be sold by issuing tickets to/from the relevant London Underground Zones. Obviously that still leaves a number of scenarios which aren't properly addressed, not least of which is how to calculate the cross-London validity.

The absence of an indicated associated Routeing Point doesn't prevent there from being permitted routes by virtue of NRCoT 13.1.1 or 13.1.2 (direct trains and the shortest route). The latter, in particular, would cover quite a large number of journeys, due to the Elizabeth line's route being quite direct.

How about the omission of stations between Liverpool Street and Abbey Wood? They are not "cross-London".

 

[Watershed]

I do think the whole thing about requiring London Underground validity is interesting in the context of tickets with route Not Underground included in the description. To me there is absolutely nothing written anywhere that suggests that Not Underground needs to be interpreted as Not Underground Not Elizabeth line if it's between Paddington and Abbey Wood. It also depends partly on whether your view is that Not Underground is the same as any operator restrictions or if its actually something which affects routing...

I think it has to be interpreted as an operator restriction; see the long-form description used by journey planners:

Not valid for travel on London Underground services.

That said it's usually trite; the default position is that National Rail tickets aren't automatically valid on the Underground - this only being the case where there is interavailability or zonal validity.

Interestingly the long-form description for the "Via Undergrd/DLR" route was changed to reference the Elizabeth line:

Valid only on London Underground, Elizabeth line (Paddington-Abbey Wood), or DLR services.

Except, of course, that the core doesn't have any electronic distance links, making buying tickets valid by virtue of this rather tricky.

The relevant mileages do exist in the NRT mileages document from Network Rail, though.

True - I am once again thinking of the contractual position rather than the practical one! As you say, the mileages can be ascertained through other sources; there is nothing in the NRCoT itself (as opposed to the Routeing Guide) which states how the mileage is to be calculated. Therefore, if relying on NRCoT 13.1.2 I would say you are entitled to rely on any source that is accurate.

How about the omission of stations between Liverpool Street and Abbey Wood? They are not "cross-London".

Liverpool Street is a London Terminal and is a member of the London Routeing Point Group, so no issues there. Whitechapel is associated with the Highbury & Islington and Surrey Quays Routeing Points (from being on the East London Line), but isn't itself a Routeing Point so this doesn't inherently cause problems.

Woolwich and Abbey Wood are listed as 'appropriate' stations to start or end a cross-London transfer, so the cross-London validity covers those too.

The issue is really for travel to/from Canary Wharf and Custom House, since there is no mileage data for the Paddington-Abbey Wood 'core' in the feed used by journey planners, and they are not associated with any Routeing Points. You really have no alternative but to buy a ticket issued for the appropriate London Underground Zones if travelling to/from those stations.

 

[miklcct]

Liverpool Street is a London Terminal and is a member of the London Routeing Point Group, so no issues there. Whitechapel is associated with the Highbury & Islington and Surrey Quays Routeing Points (from being on the East London Line), but isn't itself a Routeing Point so this doesn't inherently cause problems.

Woolwich and Abbey Wood are listed as 'appropriate' stations to start or end a cross-London transfer, so the cross-London validity covers those too.

The issue is really for travel to/from Canary Wharf and Custom House, since there is no mileage data for the Paddington-Abbey Wood 'core' in the feed used by journey planners, and they are not associated with any Routeing Points. You really have no alternative but to buy a ticket issued for the appropriate London Underground Zones if travelling to/from those stations.

I think there is an issue, mentioned a while ago, about journeys which involves changing from the East London Line to Crossrail Central Operating Section at Whitechapel in order to access Liverpool Street as a London Terminal, or similarly, changing at Whitechapel for journeys from the Great Eastern Main Line to access the East London Line for further travel.

Also, an issue occurs for non-direct journeys to London Liverpool Street from the Southeastern network where the route links are not available and the mileages are not available as well.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Yeah fares which have been taken over by the Liz Line tend to be priced in the same way as GTR do it, where they use all the zones passed through even on the NR train.

Seems to me that this is done for all journeys within the original six zones.

Except, of course, that the core doesn't have any electronic distance links, making buying tickets valid by virtue of this rather tricky.

The distances and routeing points are missing for just this reason aren't they - to stop any shortest journeys. This was made explicit, IIRC. There don't need to be distances if - and I know it's a big if - we accept TfL/NR's argument about the fare rules for this line.

The issue is really for travel to/from Canary Wharf and Custom House, since there is no mileage data for the Paddington-Abbey Wood 'core' in the feed used by journey planners, and they are not associated with any Routeing Points. You really have no alternative but to buy a ticket issued for the appropriate London Underground Zones if travelling to/from those stations.

This is why I think it is completely consistent and unambiguous. Also wrong, but that's a different matter. I don't see why there should be any difference between the soon-to-be blue/white/red operator and the red/white/blue one.

 

[Watershed]

I think there is an issue, mentioned a while ago, about journeys which involves changing from the East London Line to Crossrail Central Operating Section at Whitechapel in order to access Liverpool Street as a London Terminal, or similarly, changing at Whitechapel for journeys from the Great Eastern Main Line to access the East London Line for further travel.

Also, an issue occurs for non-direct journeys to London Liverpool Street from the Southeastern network where the route links are not available and the mileages are not available as well.

Yes, these are all scenarios which TfL probably didn't think about when coming up with their 'cake and eat it' approach.

Again, in contractual terms many of these routes are valid, the issue is that journey planners are prevented from showing this.

 

[Starmill]

Yeah fares which have been taken over by the Liz Line tend to be priced in the same way as GTR do it, where they use all the zones passed through even on the NR train.

As hinted by @ThisIsSurbiton this is the standard historical approach for all stations in zones 1-6. Which is why I asked about City Thameslink - Hanwell.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

Ah, should have checked, presumably that is some function of the stations out to West Drayton long having been on the TfL fare scale?

It should be done for all stations within 1-6.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

Is it worth someone rocking up to City Thameslink ticket office and asking for such a ticket? What do you expect to be offered? I'm certainly up for that one if it would help. 99.99% of people would just use PAYG of course.

I don't think it's important enough to try it, but thank you so much for the offer. It was purely an academic question, mainly about whether the ticket office would follow their usual brief for LU tickets and issue City Thameslink - Zone U1234, or alternatively if they would have to flip it around and issue Zone U1234 - Hanwell instead, and rely on the ability to use U-zone tickets on Thameslink services.

Also, it's a question more generally over whether tickets from outside zone 1-6 to an appropriate LU zone may be used to the stations London Paddington - Heathrow Airport (exclusive) by Elizabeth line services. The default position is likely no but the interface at Paddington makes that incredibly difficult to compute changing the rules when you're not changing trains.

I don't know how any TIS reacts to this attempt to issue tickets for a City Thameslink - Hanwell search. You're obviously entirely correct basically nobody would do this on a paper single!!

 

[crablab]

Yes, these are all scenarios which TfL probably didn't think about when coming up with their 'cake and eat it' approach.

I wonder if an FOI might give greater clarity over what TfL did forsee, what discussions were had with NR/RDG and how they envisage the current 'absence' of data (to suit their viewpoint) working.

The default position is likely no but the interface at Paddington makes that incredibly difficult to compute changing the rules when you're not changing trains.

I don't see TfL's desire for EL services to change rules along their journey, based largely on opaque whims, is sustainable. I'm not aware of any precedent for it, and I don't see that the public contractural position supports it either.

The absence of the electronic routeing data seems to be what's actually preventing proper NR acceptance on the COS; which feels devious...

I'm not stubbornly defending TfL at all costs, but as I've said before, who should take the hit on the loss of revenue? Before the EL core opened people would pay a premium to use LU services between London termini.

I don't really see why the situation is materially different than for Thameslink? If your ticket is valid to London Terminals, you don't get to 'cross the river' with it.

If you have a journey on a permitted route through the EL and out the other side, you can be priced a fare which includes that accordingly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

Unlike St Pancras International to City Thameslink, the EL core is operated by a TfL concession and is a competely new piece of kit. A proportion of the ticket cost will go to TfL to allow use of either LU or the EL core.

Again, I'm not sure how this is materially different to track access charges on Thameslink? Or HS1?

The bit of TfL which lets the concession is a separate entity to the infrastructure manager.

What would happen if an alternative operator submitted an application to the ORR, proposing to run Open Access through the COS?

 

[MikeWh]

Again, I'm not sure how this is materially different to track access charges on Thameslink? Or HS1?

The bit of TfL which lets the concession is a separate entity to the infrastructure manager.

The Thameslink core is operated by National Rail (GTR/DfT/whoever) so tickets exist which allow use of that, but NOT Underground. Also, Farringdon is the only station within a TfL Underground station so it's pretty easy to assume people haven't used the Underground. The same is not true for the EL core where every station between Whitechapel and Paddington inclusive has paid side access to the Underground network.

What would happen if an alternative operator submitted an application to the ORR, proposing to run Open Access through the COS?

It would be refused on the basis of lack of paths.

 

[redreni]

Is there a particular journey that's either contentious, ambiguous, or being looked at?

A bit of clarity would be helpful. A recent example where I wanted to make a perfectly ordinary journey and wasn't trying to do anything particularly clever or esoteric tickets was when I wanted to go to a football match on my way home from visiting family in Cambridgeshire. We'd been to Audley End House in the morning so my journey, on the return portion of a Dartford to Waterbeach off-peak return, was:

1. Audley End to Tottenham Hale
2. Tottenham Hale to Highbury & Islington*
3. Highbury & Islington to Finchley Road & Frognal*
4. Finchley Road to Ruislip Manor*
5. [After the football] Ruislip Manor to Highbury & Islington or Canonbury*
6. Highbury & Islington or Canonbury to Whitechapel
7. Whitechapel to Abbey Wood
8. Abbey Wood to Slade Green.
* denotes journey segments where Oyster or Contactless PAYG would be used, rather than the Waterbeach to Dartford National Rail ticket.

So not a weird journey I don't think, not trying to do anything especially clever with fares, just wanting to avoid zone 1 on the PAYG part of the journey.

Obviously for this to be valid, there must be a single permitted route from Waterbeach to Dartford that passes through 1. Audley End, 2. Tottenham Hale, 3. Highbury & Islington and/or Canonbury, 4. Whitechapel and 5. Slade Green.

With the help of @miklcct 's mileages tool I have identified that the shortest route is Waterbeach > Cambridge North > Tottenham Hale > Hackney Downs > London Fields > Dalston Kingsland > Canonbury > Dalston Junction > Whitechapel > Abbey Wood > Dartford (with everything in italics being the section of the valid permitted route not actually undertaken by dint of me breaking the journey at Tottenham Hale then resuming it later at Canonbury), however, unless there's a Parliamentary service I don't know about, I don't think there is a regular direct service between London Fields and Dalston Kingsland, is there?

There is a fixed walking link between Hackney Downs and Hackney Central, but I don't know if a route using that link could be considered to be the shortest by rail (or within 3 miles)? Or shorter than the shortest route?

There is nearly a mapped route: maps WA and KE allow you to go via both Tottenham Hale and Highbury & Islington (by way of Hackney Downs, Seven Sisters and Finsbury Park), but as I understand it you can't rely on a mapped route here because you don't go via London Group and the relevant maps either side of London don't touch other than at London Group.

Finally, you could do the bit from Tottenham Hale to Highbury & Islington on the Victoria Line using the cross-London validity of the train ticket - that way you'd be breaking and resuming at the same station (Highbury & Islington), but it's still unclear on what basis the segment from Highbury & Islington to Whitechapel would be valid (presumably you'd be within 3 miles of shortest route in this case)? And given TfL regards travel on the Elizabeth Line core as a cross-London transfer, it raises the question whether you can make two cross-London transfers on one journey on one ticket (Tottenham Hale to Highbury & Islington and Whitechapel to Abbey Wood), with a break of journey and a segment on NR (Highbury & Islington to Whitechapel) in between? Or would you just say the Victoria Line segment is the cross-London transfer and the rest is National Rail travel valid by dint of the shortest route rule? It's not entirely clear.

 

[miklcct]

With the help of @miklcct 's mileages tool I have identified that the shortest route is Waterbeach > Cambridge North > Tottenham Hale > Hackney Downs > London Fields > Dalston Kingsland > Canonbury > Dalston Junction > Whitechapel > Abbey Wood > Dartford (with everything in italics being the section of the valid permitted route not actually undertaken by dint of me breaking the journey at Tottenham Hale then resuming it later at Canonbury), however, unless there's a Parliamentary service I don't know about, I don't think there is a regular direct service between London Fields and Dalston Kingsland, is there?

There is no longer a direct service but the electronic data is notorious to contain sections which used to have direct trains in the past, like Acton Main Line to Kensington (Olympia), and not contain sections which now have irregular direct trains, like South Hampstead to Camden Road (the electronic data shows that the shortest route is via Willesden Junction). There were direct trains in the past on this curve as part of Watford Junction to Liverpool Street service after Broad Street closed.

The shortest route produced by my tool does not contain Whitechapel - Abbey Wood. There is no distance data available for Crossrail core. It passes through New Cross and Bexleyheath.

 

[MrJeeves]

There is no distance data available for Crossrail core.

There's no electronic data. The timetable mileage data is on the Network Rail site, though.

 

[redreni]

There's no electronic data. The timetable mileage data is on the Network Rail site, though.

Yes, when I say "with the help" of the mileage tool (which is excellent), I should have clarified that I used it to identify that the shortest route passes through Whitechapel and then considered that the route I wanted to take from that point on (Elizabeth Line via Abbey Wood then North Kent line) is bound to be shorter than the route found by the tool, which doesn't find journeys via the Elizabeth Line core. This is, of course, not the fault of the mileage tool but the fault of the cakeist attitude that lies at the nub of this thread, where the core section mileages aren't included in the data and the maps don't take account of the core's existence at all.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, when I say "with the help" of the mileage tool (which is excellent), I should have clarified that I used it to identify that the shortest route passes through Whitechapel and then considered that the route I wanted to take from that point on (Elizabeth Line via Abbey Wood then North Kent line) is bound to be shorter than the route found by the tool, which doesn't find journeys via the Elizabeth Line core. This is, of course, not the fault of the mileage tool but the fault of the cakeist attitude that lies at the nub of this thread, where the core section mileages aren't included in the data and the maps don't take account of the core's existence at all.

Yes, the lack of Crossrail core in the shortest route data is a major omission.

 

[miklcct]

Yes, when I say "with the help" of the mileage tool (which is excellent), I should have clarified that I used it to identify that the shortest route passes through Whitechapel and then considered that the route I wanted to take from that point on (Elizabeth Line via Abbey Wood then North Kent line) is bound to be shorter than the route found by the tool, which doesn't find journeys via the Elizabeth Line core. This is, of course, not the fault of the mileage tool but the fault of the cakeist attitude that lies at the nub of this thread, where the core section mileages aren't included in the data and the maps don't take account of the core's existence at all.

However, London Fields - Dalston Kingsland no longer appears on Network Rail mileage file, so you can then no longer actually deduce that the shortest route produced by my tool (which is based on the electronic data) actually matches the shortest route according to Network Rail, which contains data for Crossrail core.

Without a link between London Fields - Dalston Kingsland you need to check which is actually the shortest route according to Network Rail data (the section of Waterbeach - Cambridge and Whitechapel - Abbey Wood - Dartford is left out for clarity as there is clearly nothing shorter).

According to the Network Rail file,
East Coast Main Line from Kings Cross, Cambridge is 58.00, Finsbury Park is 2.50
West Anglia line from Liverpool Street, Hackney Downs is 3.00, Tottenham Hale is 6.00, Cambridge is 55.75 (the line via Seven Sister is longer by 0.50 miles)
Lea Valley line from Stratford, Tottenham Hale is 4.25
Northern City Line from Moorgate, Highbury & Islington is 2.25, Finsbury Park is 3.50
East London Line from Highbury & Islington, Canonbury is 0.50, Whitechapel is 3.75
Crossrail core from Paddington, Liverpool Street is 4.25, Whitechapel is 5.50, Stratford is 8.75
North London Line from Stratford, Hackney Central is 2.50, Canonbury is 4.25

So we can do the calculation.
Cambridge - Liverpool Street - Whitechapel is 57.00 miles
Cambridge - Finsbury Park - Highbury & Islington - Whitechapel is 60.50 miles
Cambridge - Tottenham Hale - Stratford - Whitechapel is 57.25 miles

When travelling down the West Anglia line, there is no possibility to change trains anywhere to another line using only scheduled services (not walking between stations) all the way from Cambridge to Liverpool Street or Stratford, so the shortest route, according to Network Rail, should be the route by changing at Liverpool Street and Abbey Wood. It does not travel anywhere near Canonbury.

However, routes within 3 miles of the shortest route remain valid in the Routeing Guide, and it can contain walks.
A route of Cambridge - Hackney Downs / Hackney Central - Canonbury - Whitechapel is 57.75 miles. It is within 3 miles of the shortest route, so it is valid.

 

[redreni]

However, London Fields - Dalston Kingsland no longer appears on Network Rail mileage file, so you can then no longer actually deduce that the shortest route produced by my tool (which is based on the electronic data) actually matches the shortest route according to Network Rail, which contains data for Crossrail core.

Without a link between London Fields - Dalston Kingsland you need to check which is actually the shortest route according to Network Rail data (the section of Waterbeach - Cambridge and Whitechapel - Abbey Wood - Dartford is left out for clarity as there is clearly nothing shorter).

According to the Network Rail file,
East Coast Main Line from Kings Cross, Cambridge is 58.00, Finsbury Park is 2.50
West Anglia line from Liverpool Street, Hackney Downs is 3.00, Tottenham Hale is 6.00, Cambridge is 55.75 (the line via Seven Sister is longer by 0.50 miles)
Lea Valley line from Stratford, Tottenham Hale is 4.25
Northern City Line from Moorgate, Highbury & Islington is 2.25, Finsbury Park is 3.50
East London Line from Highbury & Islington, Canonbury is 0.50, Whitechapel is 3.75
Crossrail core from Paddington, Liverpool Street is 4.25, Whitechapel is 5.50, Stratford is 8.75
North London Line from Stratford, Hackney Central is 2.50, Canonbury is 4.25

So we can do the calculation.
Cambridge - Liverpool Street - Whitechapel is 57.00 miles
Cambridge - Finsbury Park - Highbury & Islington - Whitechapel is 60.50 miles
Cambridge - Tottenham Hale - Stratford - Whitechapel is 57.25 miles

When travelling down the West Anglia line, there is no possibility to change trains anywhere to another line using only scheduled services (not walking between stations) all the way from Cambridge to Liverpool Street or Stratford, so the shortest route, according to Network Rail, should be the route by changing at Liverpool Street and Abbey Wood. It does not travel anywhere near Canonbury.

However, routes within 3 miles of the shortest route remain valid in the Routeing Guide, and it can contain walks.
A route of Cambridge - Hackney Downs / Hackney Central - Canonbury - Whitechapel is 57.75 miles. It is within 3 miles of the shortest route, so it is valid.

Ah, thanks, that's helpful.

I was pretty sure it must be valid as shortest or within 3 miles, but hadn't managed to identify what the actual shortest route was so it was difficult to be certain. Good to have confirmation that (notionally) walking between Hackney Downs and Central is a valid thing to do with the shortest route rule - just to confirm, is that only when (as in this case) there's a walking fixed link specified between the two stations?

(Edited to remove duplication)..

 

[yorkie]

. Good to have confirmation that (notionally) walking between Hackney Downs and Central is a valid thing to do with the shortest route rule - just to confirm, is that only when (as in this case) there's a walking fixed link specified between the two stations?

Correct.

It doesn't form the shortest route, but is valid if it is not longer than 3 miles greater than the shortest route (it could be shorter!)

 

[MikeWh]

You don't have to leave the paid area to walk between Hackney Central and Downs. There is an accessible walkway between the two.