Ely North Junction upgrade alternatives

[Snow1964]

Ely Junction improvements are specifically listed in Government press release of Network North (I guess Ely must be part of North now)

PM redirects HS2 funding to revolutionise transport across the North and Midlands

A revolution in the country’s transport infrastructure will see billions of pounds redirected from spiralling HS2 costs to build the daily connections that people depend on – unlocking potential, driving growth and transforming communities.

www.gov.uk

EDIT details in part 72, also doubling of passenger services Ely-Kings Lynn

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d64646a6955000d78b2e0/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf

 

[30907]

Ely Junction improvements are specifically listed in Government press release of Network North (I guess Ely must be part of North now)

PM redirects HS2 funding to revolutionise transport across the North and Midlands

A revolution in the country’s transport infrastructure will see billions of pounds redirected from spiralling HS2 costs to build the daily connections that people depend on – unlocking potential, driving growth and transforming communities.

www.gov.uk

At least arguably (1) it is worth doing and (2) it benefits the North and Midlands where the freight will head.

 

[dk1]

Really hoping it will happen at long last. A desperately needed upgrade if ever there was one.

 

[zwk500]

Really hoping it will happen at long last. A desperately needed upgrade if ever there was one.

This may be, but the inclusion of the upgrade in this list has precisely zero commitment to progression. It's just the RNEP & RYR lists republished.

 

[gingerheid]

Ely Junction improvements are specifically listed in Government press release of Network North (I guess Ely must be part of North now)

Ah ah, it's actually often known as Ely *North* Junction.

Does that allay your concerns?

 

[dk1]

This may be, but the inclusion of the upgrade in this list has precisely zero commitment to progression. It's just the RNEP & RYR lists republished.

That makes no sense to me but thanks anyway.

 

[Meerkat]

This may be, but the inclusion of the upgrade in this list has precisely zero commitment to progression. It's just the RNEP & RYR lists republished.

Did those have funding attached?
Ely North is now mentioned in a document with Rishi’s name on and agreed funding.
How spade ready is Ely North? The sooner a minister can get a photo with a spade the more likely it is to get the money.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ely North is now mentioned in a document with Rishi’s name on and agreed funding.

HS2 Phase 2 was mentioned in a document with the then PMs name on it as recently as last year…

How spade ready is Ely North?

It needs planning consent, which means the prep for an Order under the Transport and Works Act needs to be restarted, then the application made, then considered by the planning inspectorate, public inquiry, inspector’s report, then land purchase etc…. 3-4 years before spades at least I reckon.

 

[Nottingham59]

Today's announcement boasts of an additional 6 freight paths a day through Ely between Felixstowe and the midlands. Is it worth it for 1tp2h?

 

[dk1]

Today's announcement boasts of an additional 6 freight paths a day through Ely between Felixstowe and the midlands. Is it worth it for 1tp2h?

Yes more than. That’s so many less lorries and so many more extra passenger trains.

 

[Nell01joe]

Also I believe Anglia want to run an hourly passenger service from Ipswich to Peterborough with enhanced capacity.

 

[Meerkat]

HS2 Phase 2 was mentioned in a document with the then PMs name on it as recently as last year…

And he's still building it.....
Ely didn't have a budget or ministerial name checks before though did it??

 

[Bald Rick]

And he's still building it.....

Not Phase 2!

Ely didn't have a budget or ministerial name checks before though did it??

That depends how you define “budget”

 

[cle]

Also I believe Anglia want to run an hourly passenger service from Ipswich to Peterborough with enhanced capacity.

I do wonder if services were re-jigged at Ely, to remove crossings if more could be fit through there. For example, Ipswich services to Kings Lynn or Norwich (yes a long way round for direct journeys of course) - or even just to Ely terminating (a bay would help), but @ hourly or even 2tph - and then fit more from the Cambridge side to Peterborough. So more connections in all directions.

But in any case, good for Soham. Pretty pointless building a new station for a 1tp2h service, so it's good news.

 

[dk1]

I do wonder if services were re-jigged at Ely, to remove crossings if more could be fit through there. For example, Ipswich services to Kings Lynn or Norwich (yes a long way round for direct journeys of course) - or even just to Ely terminating (a bay would help), but @ hourly or even 2tph - and then fit more from the Cambridge side to Peterborough. So more connections in all directions.

That makes no sense at all.

 

[Farigiraf]

Also I believe Anglia want to run an hourly passenger service from Ipswich to Peterborough with enhanced capacity.

Peterborough to Ipswich and Cambridge splitting/joining at Ely
1tph for Soham and an alternative to CrossCountry

 

[GRALISTAIR]

At least arguably (1) it is worth doing and (2) it benefits the North and Midlands where the freight will head.

Exactly. F2N and F2MN

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Peterborough to Ipswich and Cambridge splitting/joining at Ely
1tph for Soham and an alternative to CrossCountry

Or better: 1tph Peterborough to Cambridge via Soham and Newmarket: I'm guessing rather more people in Soham need to go to Cambridge than to Ipswich.

Of course the problem is that needs rather more infrastructure to be built (a North-to-West chord at Newmarket and maybe some doubling too?).

 

[Farigiraf]

I'm guessing rather more people in Soham need to go to Cambridge than to Ipswich.

There is conveniently (for this idea) no bus service

(a North-to-West chord at Newmarket and maybe some doubling too?).

I think you could just reverse at Kennett, but Cambridge to Kennett was always in the cards for double tracking

Being speculative discussion, could this theoretical service be Ely-Cambridge via Soham and run by a tram-train? With new stops at Fordham, Fulbourn and Six Mile Bottom () as a park and ride

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's on a key freight route. Passengers are surely secondary.?

 

[Bald Rick]

but Cambridge to Kennett was always in the cards for double tracking

Presumably you mean Cambridge - Chippenham Junction, and it has never* been on the cards for double tracking, other than in a speculative sense.

*not for the last 30 years.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Being speculative discussion, could this theoretical service be Ely-Cambridge via Soham and run by a tram-train? With new stops at Fordham, Fulbourn and Six Mile Bottom () as a park and ride

Theoretically it could - but in practice, there would be no point unless you are going to build some tram lines in Cambridge for it to run on. And realistically, it would be totally uneconomic to build tram lines if the only use for them was 1tph from Peterborough - so it's only going to happen if you were actually building some kind of tram network in Cambridge, which you could feed a train from Soham/Newmarket into. Off the top of my head, I'm not convinced Cambridge is big enough for that to be a viable idea?

 

[Meerkat]

What’s the usage of Soham like? I was amazed it got authorised on a busy freight line when it isn’t connected to the obvious destination.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Quite good. Went through there on an off peak Peterborough last week and 11 got on.

 

[cle]

I appreciate the Ipswich-Peterborough service is fun on the map, but am curious how many travel on it across Ely... do Ipswich-folk use it to reach the ECML in meaningful numbers?

It'd be better having 2tph to Cambridge and the route to Soham as freight only, tbh. If we were really trying to clear Ely up. But it got built so here we are. A bay at Ely could also turn more service, as a sop to no through journeys, and avoid a crossing to the west side.

 

[dk1]

I appreciate the Ipswich-Peterborough service is fun on the map, but am curious how many travel on it across Ely... do Ipswich-folk use it to reach the ECML in meaningful numbers?

It'd be better having 2tph to Cambridge and the route to Soham as freight only, tbh. If we were really trying to clear Ely up. But it got built so here we are. A bay at Ely could also turn more service, as a sop to no through journeys, and avoid a crossing to the west side.

The through services are the most important. Don’t want anything terminating Ely. Until Ely North Junction is upgraded no more freight can run. Paths will be available for an hourly service to Peterborough from Ipswich.

In a similar way to Norwich, Ipswich services connect at Peterborough and are well used with passengers for ECML destinations and the reason they exist and don’t terminate Ely forcing another change of train.

 

[TheBigD]

I appreciate the Ipswich-Peterborough service is fun on the map, but am curious how many travel on it across Ely... do Ipswich-folk use it to reach the ECML in meaningful numbers?

It'd be better having 2tph to Cambridge and the route to Soham as freight only, tbh. If we were really trying to clear Ely up. But it got built so here we are. A bay at Ely could also turn more service, as a sop to no through journeys, and avoid a crossing to the west side.

You won't be able to run 2tph via Newmarket without another passing loop between Dullingham and Cambridge.

 

[zwk500]

That makes no sense to me but thanks anyway.

When cancelling HS2, No.10 was scrabbling about for any scheme to offer as an alternative - so somebody at the DfT has sent the spreadsheet(s) containing a list of absolutely anything in the Rail Network Enhancements Programmend and Restoring Your Railways fund, and old ones at that, to be published as 'Network North'.

Did those have funding attached?
Ely North is now mentioned in a document with Rishi’s name on and agreed funding.

Where is the agreed funding? There's nothing binding in what's been announced, and indeed they've already started deleting or rolling back on bits of it. I genuinely can't believe people are falling so easily for the bait and switch Sunak's pulled.

 

[Magdalia]

It's on a key freight route. Passengers are surely secondary.?

The timetable does not bear that out, with a large proportion of the train paths taken up by very short passenger trains. The worst offender is the Liverpool-Norwich service, which, because it reverses at Ely, takes up 4 paths every hour with a 2 car train. The Stansted-Birmingham trains are only 3 cars.

I appreciate the Ipswich-Peterborough service is fun on the map, but am curious how many travel on it across Ely... do Ipswich-folk use it to reach the ECML in meaningful numbers?

There has been at least some through services between Ipswich and Peterborough for a very long time, go back 60 years and there were trains like the Harwich-Rugby and the Colchester-Glasgow. Ipswich is a big town and, like Cambridge and Norwich, it does benefit from "one change" inter-connectivity at Peterborough with the Midlands and the North.

The main difficulty for the passenger timetable is that Ely-Peterborough only justifies 2tph (of suitable length) yet all of Norwich, Ipswich and Cambridge want 1tph to/from Peterborough, and 3 into 2 doesn't go. Portion working could solve that, but it lacks resilience. Reducing Ely-Peterborough to 2tph would free up the paths that the freight needs, without any need for extravagant engineering projects.

But any solution to this is difficult to implement because of the large number of different TOCs involved: all of Great Northern, Greater Anglia, East Midlands and Cross Country have a finger in the pie.

A bay at Ely could also turn more service, as a sop to no through journeys, and avoid a crossing to the west side.

But the only space for a bay at Ely is, er, on the west side.

What’s the usage of Soham like? I was amazed it got authorised on a busy freight line when it isn’t connected to the obvious destination.

Vanity project for James Palmer, the first Mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough.

There is conveniently (for this idea) no bus service

There used to be. It was one of those cut by Stagecoach a year ago.

Cambridge to Kennett was always in the cards for double tracking

Warren Hill Tunnel at Newmarket always has been, and always will be, single track.

You won't be able to run 2tph via Newmarket without another passing loop between Dullingham and Cambridge.

Doesn't really help. The main constraint is paths around the Cambridge station area. The north end of the station is very congested at peak times because of movements in and out of the carriage sidings.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The timetable does not bear that out, with a large proportion of the train paths taken up by very short passenger trains. The worst offender is the Liverpool-Norwich service, which, because it reverses at Ely, takes up 4 paths every hour with a 2 car train. The Stansted-Birmingham trains are only 3 cars.

Agreed. Some service lengthening ought to be considered as a way to improve capacity. And there's possibly a good argument that once EW rail is completed, Norwich-Liverpool should be replaced by Norwich-Oxford (which still connects to the ECML) to avoid the reversal and excessive use of paths around Ely.

The main difficulty for the passenger timetable is that Ely-Peterborough only justifies 2tph (of suitable length) yet all of Norwich, Ipswich and Cambridge want 1tph to/from Peterborough, and 3 into 2 doesn't go. Portion working could solve that, but it lacks resilience. Reducing Ely-Peterborough to 2tph would free up the paths that the freight needs, without any need for extravagant engineering projects.

I'm not convinced by the bolded bit. Ely-Peterborough may well only justify 2tph of local journeys, but if it's the route that is used by people making much longer journeys (such as Cambridge-Peterborough/the North or Ipswich-Leicester) then presumably that automatically justifies having more longer distance trains running over it to accommodate those passengers.

(In the same way that - say - Lancaster-Oxenholme-Penrith-Carlisle sees many more trains than would be justified by the population of that area, but that's completely valid because most of those trains are serving long distance passengers and just happen to be there because that line is the way you get from most of England to Glasgow)