Emergency passport for Ireland (expired)

[Hornet]

Note it is not Passport Control at Dublin Airport but Border Control and people at the booths are Border Control Officers. This is because both UK citizens travelling within the Common Travel Area (CTA) and Irish citizens flying into Dublin Airport from Kerry and Donegal also have to pass through these booths. I had a blazing row with one officer last year, travelling from Birmingham, when she refused to accept my driving licence as proof of ID. (I've passed through Dublin Airport nearly 500 times previous to this over the last 35 years and alway shown my licence when coming off CTA flights, previously to the Gardai and now the Border Control Officers). I stood my ground and was eventually let through.
Consequent correspondence with the senior Border Control Officer, which I now hold on my smartphone, confirmed I was right in my assertion that a UK driving licence was an acceptable form of ID travelling within the CTA and that as long as you follow the ID policies of the airline you are travelling on (Ryanair Passports, Aer Lingus and BA acceptable ID, including driving licences) there should be no problem in using a UK driving licence for Border Control Procedures at Dublin Airport. I've not had a problem since, passing through the airport over 10 times since my spat, showing my UK driving licence. Note that when you are at the Booths, show your Boarding Card and your (non Passport) photo ID. The vast majority of Border Control Officers will wave you through. One or two might just ask you where you have flown in from just to hear your accent.

 

[bahnause]

That's actually good thought.. though depending how far ahead I can look. I'll look into that..

According to european law, the airline has to refund the fees and taxes in any case. It might has changed with Brexit.

 

[zero]

According to european law, the airline has to refund the fees and taxes in any case. It might has changed with Brexit.

But they can charge an admin fee for doing so.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

According to european law, the airline has to refund the fees and taxes in any case.

But they can charge an admin fee for doing so.

Let me guess. The amount of such admin fee is broadly equivalent to what you might otherwise have expected to have received back.

 

[bahnause]

But they can charge an admin fee for doing so.

According to a court ruling, not even a admin fee is permissible.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Note it is not Passport Control at Dublin Airport but Border Control and people at the booths are Border Control Officers.

There is something to point out here: this is not quite correct. The checkpoints are for the purposes of immigration control, and those working there are immigration officers. They conduct border control in the same way for everyone, but with the exception that CTA flights are covered by the CTA and therefore 'a form of photo identification' is required, along with the boarding pass to prove entitlement to the CTA provisions.

Next time I go to Dublin, I must try the combination of UK-origin boarding pass and a Polish driving licence to see how they react to such a combination. The driving licence shows I was born in Scotland, my name is Scottish, but it could be fun to see the reaction!

I had a similar issue travelling to Jersey regularly. Easyjet wanted a passport.

I suspect someone didn't understand the rules there! This is nothing uncommon with CTA flights on Easyjet though.

As an aside, does anyone know why Ryanair don't accept standard forms of ID that others do?

I had a chat once with someone in Ryanair operations about this, and she said that it's simply faster and easier for them to accept only passports and ID cards. They don't have that many domestic flights, and rather than waste time trying to figure out if someone can benefit from CTA rules and so on, it's simply easier to demand that everyone has a valid travel document. If they accept a work ID from Jim's Kebabs or a driving licence issued on paper from Cluj-Napoca in 1999, they need to work out if the person is actually British/Irish.

INIS or Gardaí at airports will expect to see a passport, EU National ID, or a different photo ID accompanied by some evidence that the holder is, or is likely to be, a British or Irish citizen eligible to use the CTA arrangement. This might be a British or Irish place of birth on the driving licence, a birth certificate, or something else. It came up on one of the various airport fly-on-the-wall documentaries where someone sought to enter Ireland with only a student card and was held up for some time whilst enquiries were made.

The whole CTA arrangement really needs to be rethought about in light of Brexit. I've already had one situation where I was threatened with denied boarding in Dublin because I presented my Polish ID card, but then another gate agent was quite happy to accept my Polish driving licence as it says clearly that I was born in Scotland.

 

[island]

I was threatened with denied boarding in Dublin because I presented my Polish ID card

This is correct, a Polish ID card is not valid to travel to the United Kingdom unless the holder has settled status, which I am guessing you do not. Additionally, if you are a British citizen, under section 3 (9) of the Immigration Act 1971 you are required to use your British passport to travel to the United Kingdom.

, but then another gate agent was quite happy to accept my Polish driving licence as it says clearly that I was born in Scotland.

This was a sensible practical decision given that the UK Border Force does not routinely examine passengers arriving from elsewhere in the CTA.

 

[XAM2175]

Additionally, if you are a British citizen, under section 3 (9) of the Immigration Act 1971 you are required to use your British passport to travel to the United Kingdom.

Except that section 1(3) of the same act holds:

Arrival in and departure from the United Kingdom on a local journey from or to any of the Islands (that is to say, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man) or the Republic of Ireland shall not be subject to control under this Act, nor shall a person require leave to enter the United Kingdom on so arriving, except in so far as any of those places is for any purpose excluded from this subsection under the powers conferred by this Act; and in this Act the United Kingdom and those places, or such of them as are not so excluded, are collectively referred to as “the common travel area”.

(unless the person concerned is subject to specific exemptions in sections 3ZA and 9(4), neither of which can apply to British citizens)

 

[Cloud Strife]

This is correct, a Polish ID card is not valid to travel to the United Kingdom unless the holder has settled status, which I am guessing you do not. Additionally, if you are a British citizen, under section 3 (9) of the Immigration Act 1971 you are required to use your British passport to travel to the United Kingdom.

The problem was that they shouldn't have caused any fuss in the first place: the UK quite explicitly said that the matter should be solved upon arrival in the UK and that evidence shouldn't be demanded from travellers presenting EU ID cards. If the gate agent had asked if I had settled status, I would have said 'yes', just as I always do on departure from other airports to the UK. But no, the gate agent demanded a passport.

I believe that the IMA also told the carriers to stop doing this, and the UK government clarified that the carriers only need to make sure that the travellers have an ID card or passport when travelling to the UK from outside the CTA.

I was quite willing to take on the responsibility of explaining myself in the UK to anyone who might question whether I had settled status or not, but the odds of that happening were slim to none.

(for what it's worth, I checked in using the ID card!)

This was a sensible practical decision given that the UK Border Force does not routinely examine passengers arriving from elsewhere in the CTA.

Exactly, but quite absurd all the same, don't you think? The CTA means that I only need a form of photo ID, and an EEA ID card should suffice.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've actually travelled to the UK using a passport from anywhere except Dublin, and only on Ryanair. The question is always a simple: 'are you resident in the UK?', I lie and say 'yes', and that's that. I don't check in using my British passport, I don't use it in the airport, I use my ID card to leave Schengen, etc etc.

And flying from the UK, I always use my ID card rather than my passport too, because there are no exit checks anyway. It's worth noting that despite doing this routinely (passport on entry to the UK, ID card on exit from the UK), nothing has ever been flagged. And now when I think about it, the Advance Passenger Information that the UK requests always contains my ID card data, but I use my British passport to actually go through border control.

Additionally, if you are a British citizen, under section 3 (9) of the Immigration Act 1971 you are required to use your British passport to travel to the United Kingdom.

This is an interesting problem: I cannot travel from a Polish airport using my British passport, as it's obligatory to identity yourself using a Polish identity document when in Poland if you are a Polish citizen. So, I have to check in (and go through border control) using my ID card, so the UK thinks that a Polish citizen with my name is coming. When I arrive in the UK from outside the CTA, I have to use my British passport because of the law that you mention, as well as the fact that I simply don't have a Polish passport.

So, in this case, what am I supposed to do? I have to break the rules somewhere.

 

[island]

If the gate agent had asked if I had settled status, I would have said 'yes', just as I always do on departure from other airports to the UK.

But you don't. I would not recommend lying to airline/security staff at airports, it risks causing you trouble if found out.

This is an interesting problem: I cannot travel from a Polish airport using my British passport, as it's obligatory to identity yourself using a Polish identity document when in Poland if you are a Polish citizen. So, I have to check in (and go through border control) using my ID card, so the UK thinks that a Polish citizen with my name is coming. When I arrive in the UK from outside the CTA, I have to use my British passport because of the law that you mention, as well as the fact that I simply don't have a Polish passport.

So, in this case, what am I supposed to do? I have to break the rules somewhere.

Without being familiar with the specific Polish laws, I wouldn't be able to give specific advice beyond that you should present to each person the document(s) that concerns them and meets their requirements, so when travelling from Poland to the UK you would use your British passport to check in, your Polish ID card to pass Polish departure border control, and your British passport to pass British arrival border control. It may be that the Straż Graniczna observe that you cannot use your Polish ID card to leave the European Union, which is technically correct, and if that happens, hopefully they will accept your British passport instead.

 

[XAM2175]

So, in this case, what am I supposed to do? I have to break the rules somewhere.

... beyond that you should present to each person the document(s) that concerns them and meets their requirements, so when travelling from Poland to the UK you would use your British passport to check in, your Polish ID card to pass Polish departure border control, and your British passport to pass British arrival border control.

Yes, this is the way it's generally done, and it's pretty common because plenty of other countries impose the same kinds of requirements on citizens re-entering from abroad. I would specifically note that "use your British passport to check in" would include providing it to the airline as part of your Advance Passenger Information. I would be surprised if Polish law didn't include provision for circumstances like this.

 

[danm14]

Additionally, if you are a British citizen, under section 3 (9) of the Immigration Act 1971 you are required to use your British passport to travel to the United Kingdom.

Where does this leave dual-Irish/British citizens travelling into the United Kingdom using their Irish passport?

Obviously I understand that in practice doing so will never be questioned, but is it technically an offence?

 

[Cloud Strife]

But you don't. I would not recommend lying to airline/security staff at airports, it risks causing you trouble if found out.

I like to live dangerously But generally speaking, they ask in such a way that they're not really listening to the answer. But actually, last time, I told them that I had dual citizenship, which was enough for them.

I wouldn't be able to give specific advice beyond that you should present to each person the document(s) that concerns them and meets their requirements, so when travelling from Poland to the UK you would use your British passport to check in, your Polish ID card to pass Polish departure border control, and your British passport to pass British arrival border control. It may be that the Straż Graniczna observe that you cannot use your Polish ID card to leave the European Union, which is technically correct, and if that happens, hopefully they will accept your British passport instead.

The problem here is that if the British passport is used to check in, then it can cause problems at this end instead, especially once the EES/ETIAS systems come into place. So, it's generally better to identify as an EU citizen when in the EU, and then use the British passport solely for UK border control.

About the Straż Graniczna: there's no requirement to present a passport to leave Poland, only that the recognised travel document must be valid. It's because the Polish ID card is valid to quite a few non-EU/EEA/CH destinations, as for instance, Turkey now allows visa-free travel to Polish citizens with just their ID cards.

Yes, this is the way it's generally done, and it's pretty common because plenty of other countries impose the same kinds of requirements on citizens re-entering from abroad. I would specifically note that "use your British passport to check in" would include providing it to the airline as part of your Advance Passenger Information. I would be surprised if Polish law didn't include provision for circumstances like this.

There's no provision for this, the law simply states that Polish citizens must identify themselves with Polish documents when in Poland. In practice, the Straż Graniczna will sometimes ask to see your second travel document if you present an ID card on the Eastern border, but this is solely to verify that you're actually allowed to enter Ukraine/Belarus/Russia.

It's a bit OT, but does anyone know if gate agents have access to US ESTA data? If they do, then the EU ETIAS will presumably work in the same way - meaning I'd have to use my Polish ID card to check in on UK->EU flights. It will get even more confusing if the UK uses their own system!

 

[island]

Where does this leave dual-Irish/British citizens travelling into the United Kingdom using their Irish passport?

Obviously I understand that in practice doing so will never be questioned, but is it technically an offence?

Section 3 (9) applies to a British citizen seeking to enter the UK and claiming to have the right of abode there. Seeking entry as an Irish citizen would be in reliance on section 3ZA (1) which states Irish citizens do not require leave to enter or remain in the UK, rather than a claim to the right of abode. It seems to me therefore that an Irish/British dual national may use their Irish passport to enter the UK.

It's a bit OT, but does anyone know if gate agents have access to US ESTA data? If they do, then the EU ETIAS will presumably work in the same way - meaning I'd have to use my Polish ID card to check in on UK->EU flights. It will get even more confusing if the UK uses their own system!

ESTA verification is not habitually performed at the gate, but at check-in.

The problem here is that if the British passport is used to check in, then it can cause problems at this end instead, especially once the EES/ETIAS systems come into place. So, it's generally better to identify as an EU citizen when in the EU, and then use the British passport solely for UK border control.

Yes, once EES, ETIAS, ETA and all the other various acronyms start to hit, it will become even more of a minefield for dual citizens as to what document to enter and show where and when. It may well be that a British/Polish dual national such as yourself may find themselves unable to use online check-in if the system can't cope with it. Perhaps the relevant authorities will come to a common-sense solution; meanwhile I shall giggle quietly here on my couch with my Irish passport.

 

[Cloud Strife]

ESTA verification is not habitually performed at the gate, but at check-in.

Thanks, I've never flown to the US, so I had no idea how they actually verify it in practice.

Yes, once EES, ETIAS, ETA and all the other various acronyms start to hit, it will become even more of a minefield for dual citizens as to what document to enter and show where and when. It may well be that a British/Polish dual national such as yourself may find themselves unable to use online check-in if the system can't cope with it. Perhaps the relevant authorities will come to a common-sense solution; meanwhile I shall giggle quietly here on my couch with my Irish passport.

Best of both worlds, especially as you can also get the passport card!

But this just really confirms to me that the CTA needs to become a proper single travel area. I've just been reading through the rules surrounding people who are legally in Ireland and who wish to travel to the UK, and it's a complicated minefield. It's still not clear to me if you can visit Northern Ireland on an ID card from Ireland, and the issues of the ETA are being discussed here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64702620

 

[zero]

Interesting thread.

I've asked UKBF officers when I was entering the UK, and have discussed this with others who have done the same, and the officers all said British citizens were not required to use British passports to enter the UK.

The above legislation does say that British passports are only required for entry when "claiming right of abode in the UK". Cloud Strife appears to not live in the UK and only visit/transit, so by my reading a British passport would not be required by that piece of legislation.

Many people now enter the UK using e-gates which also makes it hard to enforce this, if enforcement is desired, although the forthcoming UK ETA will effectively enforce this, not sure if intentionally or just as a side effect.

I know of the following two cases (post Brexit): 1) a German/British dual citizen resident in the UK, attempted to enter the UK on her German passport with her British husband and British children and so did not use the e-gates, which she normally did on the German passport as the British one always fails. She was initially denied entry as she did not have settled status or an onward flight such that she could be regarded as a tourist (at least that was what was told to me). This situation was resolved when, having emailed a copy of her British passport to a colleague previously but not kept the copy on her own laptop/phone, she got that colleague to send the passport scan back to her. 2) a British/EU citizen was only able to present the EU passport in the manual queue and the officer told him to stand to one side while he went away to verify the claimed British citizenship, which reportedly took 20 minutes.

Regarding checking in for flights - the rule for multiple citizens is generally to check in with the documents for the destination, but use local documents, if possessed, for immigration. To check in for a flight to the US, Canada or Australia, you must have a US, Canadian or Australian passport in the API, or a valid visa or ESTA / eTA, otherwise check in will fail. (Additionally, Canadians don't need an ESTA to go to the US and Americans don't need an eTA, and New Zealand citizens without an existing visa generally get a special visa upon arrival in Australia, so these passports in the relevant API will also permit check in.)

So yes a Polish/US citizen must use a Polish passport to exit Schengen from Poland, but if flying to the US they must check in to the flight with their US passport. So I am not sure how Poland can require Polish citizens to use Polish documents for checking in. (Actually, I know US citizens that have obtained ESTAs in foreign passports and successfully flown to the US, but I think you have to lie in the ESTA application as it asks if you are a US citizen; and the same for Australian citizens) The US and Australia do require citizens to use their own passports to enter, but there does not appear to be any penalty for not doing so, if one manages to reach immigration. Canada wants you to apply for a dispensation to use a passport other than Canadian/US to fly to Canada which would waive the eTA requirement.

Thus, if the upcoming UK ETA application asks if you are a British citizen, then as a British citizen your choices are to use a British passport to fly to the UK, or lie and hope you can get an ETA. (Unless you have never had a passport, and can get a Certificate of Entitlement to the Right of Abode, which is functionally like a UK visa.) You may be able to plead your case to a UKBF officer if you travel by Eurostar.

I don't believe there is any matching of API to travellers entering (or exiting) Schengen at present, although it may happen with the EES. I have personally had different documents in API to the ones I presented to Schengen officers and no issues have arisen, but this may change when ETIAS is finally ready. (I am not an EU/EEA citizen.)

In theory, a British citizen entering the UK using a non-British passport at the e-gates, and who subsequently has their British passport in the API when leaving the UK, should have the foreign passport flagged as an overstayer if the data indicates this. However HMPO does require British passport holders to submit all valid foreign passports when renewing or applying for a British passport. So they may already be linked, or maybe not. As someone put it to me once, the UK authorities are simultaneously more competent than you think, and less competent than you think.

 

[island]

I've just been reading through the rules surrounding people who are legally in Ireland and who wish to travel to the UK, and it's a complicated minefield. It's still not clear to me if you can visit Northern Ireland on an ID card from Ireland, and the issues of the ETA are being discussed here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64702620

For the most part it will fall under the normal Irish principle of "it'll be grand" and people who live on the island will go back and forth like they always do. It'll be grand until it isn't, of course – it already arises with certain nationalities who are visa-required for the UK but not Ireland (or possibly vice-versa) and find themselves in hot water after meeting the wrong PSNI officer/Garda on the other side of the border.

The above legislation does say that British passports are only required for entry when "claiming right of abode in the UK". Cloud Strife appears to not live in the UK and only visit/transit, so by my reading a British passport would not be required by that piece of legislation.

A British citizen entering the United Kingdom is exercising their right of abode: the right of abode does not just mean the right to live in a country, but the freedom from the immigration control of that country.

Thus, if the upcoming UK ETA application asks if you are a British citizen, then as a British citizen your choices are to use a British passport to fly to the UK, or lie and hope you can get an ETA.

I would be very surprised if the application system permitted applications from British citizens. A British citizen cannot be granted "leave to enter the United Kingdom".

This came up with a friend of mine who was born in South Africa, only held a South African passport, and applied for a visa to visit the UK. He was estranged from one of his parents, and his visa application was refused because he was a British citizen – it transpired the estranged parent was British-born and had transmitted their citizenship to him.

I've asked UKBF officers when I was entering the UK, and have discussed this with others who have done the same, and the officers all said British citizens were not required to use British passports to enter the UK.

I can't comment on individual reports from individual interactions.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks, I've never flown to the US, so I had no idea how they actually verify it in practice.

The check in and ESTA systems "talk to each other" - the agent will know if you have a valid ESTA or not.

 

[zero]

I would be very surprised if the application system permitted applications from British citizens. A British citizen cannot be granted "leave to enter the United Kingdom".

I would agree, but I don't think the UK ETA will be granting "leave to enter the UK", as a visa or immigration officer does that. It just authorises you to travel to the UK. Do British citizens have the right to travel to the UK?

For example, the US has the no-fly list which includes US citizens.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would agree, but I don't think the UK ETA will be granting "leave to enter the UK", as a visa or immigration officer does that. It just authorises you to travel to the UK. Do British citizens have the right to travel to the UK?

For example, the US has the no-fly list which includes US citizens.

ETAs and ESTAs are for foreign citizens and essentially replace tourist and casual visit visas in places where they exist. They don't apply to permanent residents, visa holders, or citizens.

All British citizens have the right to travel to the UK, and to enter.

 

[island]

Do British citizens have the right to travel to the UK?

I am not aware of it being specifically enumerated in statute law, but I strongly suspect it would be found to exist at common law if a case arose. Hence why the action taken against Shamima Begum was to deprive her of her citizenship and hence right of abode.

For example, the US has the no-fly list which includes US citizens.

It does, but they have a procedure in place to arrange for this to be lifted so that a US citizen or lawful permanent resident who finds themselves on the no-fly list whilst abroad can return to the US. See https://www.aclu.org/know-your-righ...if-youve-been-denied-boarding-outside-the-u-s

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it's Ryanair, and they'd rather have your money and not convey you? Been like this with what ID they will accept, since 2009, I believe.

With Ryanair it is because they bought a cheap online checkin module that can only handle passport numbers, not other things, if I recall. Before online checkin was a thing there wasn't that requirement.

Ryanair even require (or did require) a passport for UK domestics.

 

[danm14]

It's still not clear to me if you can visit Northern Ireland on an ID card from Ireland, and the issues of the ETA are being discussed here:

It is official UK Government guidance that EU/EEA/CH citizens do not need a passport to enter Northern Ireland from the Republic.

There are also no immigration checks, even random ones, when travelling from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland. Random immigration checks are only conducted by the Irish authorities on southbound journeys.

If you’re from an EEA country or Switzerland

You will not pass through any immigration control when you enter the UK from Ireland across the land border, so you don’t need any documents to enter the UK on that route.

However, you may be asked to show your passport (which should be valid for the whole of your stay) or identity card to enter Great Britain when travelling from Ireland if you are encountered by Border Force.

Travelling to the UK from Ireland, Isle of Man, Guernsey or Jersey

Information for people travelling to the UK from Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey or the Isle of Man, and information for people passing through the UK on the way to Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey or the Isle of Man.

www.gov.uk

 

[XAM2175]

There's no provision for this, the law simply states that Polish citizens must identify themselves with Polish documents when in Poland. In practice, the Straż Graniczna will sometimes ask to see your second travel document if you present an ID card on the Eastern border, but this is solely to verify that you're actually allowed to enter Ukraine/Belarus/Russia.

Okay, so just present your Polish ID card and your British passport at check-in if you're that concerned about complying with the Polish-documents-in-Poland rule.

Remember, the purpose of the airline's document check is not only to verify your identity but also to satisfy themselves that you're likely to be accepted by the immigration authorities of your destination country.

Random immigration checks are only conducted by the Irish authorities on southbound journeys.

Technically, persons entering the Republic from NI who are not British, Irish, or EU/EEA citizens are required to present themselves to the Garda or Immigration Service for inspection and clearance within a reasonable amount of time subsequent to crossing the border, but I'm not aware of the extent to which failure to do so is investigated or punished.

 

[danm14]

Technically, persons entering the Republic from NI who are not British, Irish, or EU/EEA citizens are required to present themselves to the Garda or Immigration Service for inspection and clearance within a reasonable amount of time subsequent to crossing the border, but I'm not aware of the extent to which failure to do so is investigated or punished.

That is not actually the case, and the very common belief that it is was the result of misleading guidance from the Department of Justice, which was corrected late last year - see the Department of Justice website at

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/at-the-border/entry-for-non-eu-non-eea-and-non-swiss-nationals/#arrive

The actual requirements set out for a "non-national arriving in the State otherwise than by sea or air" in Section 4(5) of the Immigration Act 2004 (as amended) are as follows:

• To hold a valid Irish visa unless you are exempt from the requirement to hold a valid Irish visa
• To report in person to a registration officer within 7 days of arrival if you are engaging in employment, business or a profession in the State
• Not to remain in the State for more than one month without obtaining written permission from the Minister of Justice or an immigration officer

There is no requirement for a person who is not intending to engage in employment, business or a profession - such as a tourist - to present themselves to anyone (unless, of course, they encounter a random immigration check on crossing the border) unless they are staying for more than one month.

 

[XAM2175]

That is not actually the case, and the very common belief that it is was the result of misleading guidance from the Department of Justice, which was corrected late last year

Oh splendid - thanks for pointing it out. Bit of a major fumble on their behalf!