Empty Stock Moves That Could Be Useful To Passengers.

[CHESHIRECAT]

Not acc. RTT? Shows Wilmslow where it sits for 9 minutes! Then Styal line to Piccadilly..hence my post!

 

[mangyiscute]

Not acc. RTT? Shows Wilmslow where it sits for 9 minutes! Then Styal line to Piccadilly..hence my post!

I assume you mean this one: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W29326/2023-07-20/detailed
Perhaps the day you were looking at there's engineering works somewhere

In fact, looking at RTT it seems it is timetabled to run via Warrington, but it often runs via Wilmslow instead - something like this could therefore never form a passenger service, clearly they need the flexibility to be able to change route at short notice

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Tomorrow planned as per my OP

Realtime Trains | 5V33 0513 Crewe C.S. to Manchester Piccadilly | 12/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5V33 0513 departure from Crewe C.S. to Manchester Piccadilly on 12/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[mangyiscute]

Tomorrow planned as per my OP

Realtime Trains | 5V33 0513 Crewe C.S. to Manchester Piccadilly | 12/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5V33 0513 departure from Crewe C.S. to Manchester Piccadilly on 12/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Well as I said before, this train clearly runs different routes all the time, so it couldn't be made a passenger service.

 

[ComUtoR]

With DOO this needs to happen at a staffed station

Why ?

(hence the 2343/45 Hayes to Lewisham as Hayes is unstaffed) so a 2nd person is available.

I don't believe that this is the correct reason why it runs in service, rather than DOO

 

[Sm5]

Southern rail have a number of ECS moves in the late evening that in many cases are rather odd but could be converted into useful passenger services.

On Monday to Fridays:
5G70 2312 Caterham to Selhurst Depot
Has sufficient pathing time that it could be run in service to Purley or East Croydon
5P71 2339 Caterham to Selhurst Depot
This one even waits at Purley for a similar ECS move to join it and attach from Tattenham Corner (5P68 at 2339) before running together to Selhurst

These ECS moves mean that the Caterham branch has the odd quirk of having later last trains towards Croydon on Saturdays (2330) and Sundays (2304) than weekdays (2255). It should be noted the far quieter Epsom Downs branch has later last trains on all nights of the week towards Croydon

Meanwhile on Saturdays the following odd things happen:

2S92 2307 Dorking to West Croydon becomes 5K94 West Croydon to London Bridge ECS

2B57 2338 Epsom Downs to West Croydon becomes 5B59 West Croydon to Stewarts Lane via London Victoria ECS

2S94 2337 Dorking to West Croydon becomes 5B94 West Croydon to Stewarts Lane via London Victoria ECS

Why these don't continue in passenger service from West Croydon to the respective London termini is baffling? They'd be far more useful to passengers if they did continue in service to London rather then dumping people in West Croydon at midnight leaving them to get the nightbus in towards London.

since they cut the last south bounds from victoria to Epsom downs (via Wallington) to being 2300, you cannot have a last orders drink in the city any more unless your right by victoria station.

so the passenger southbound services are largely ecs anyway.

Epsom downs branch must be confusing for drivers, given after Sutton they are ecs most of the day anyway.
You have to wonder why £14mn on a siding at Belmont is considered worthwhile, or if its a precursor to closing the branch Beyond it.

 

[30907]

Why ?

I don't believe that this is the correct reason why it runs in service, rather than DOO

It was been claimed here (and IIRC elsewhere) - the working has varied insignificantly since:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/whats-your-fastest-hayes-line-journey.153304/
Apologies if the claim was railway myth

 

[ComUtoR]

Apologies if the claim was railway myth

No worries. That post is accurate to a degree, as much more was happening in the background. If you go back to that post and look at it from a different perspective. It was done because of all the anti-social behaviour. The 'requirement' for staff becomes a red herring.

 

[moonarrow458]

Yes as I understand it the Hayes unadvertised expresses to Lewisham run as passenger services due to antisocial behaviour and the heightened risk that poses with a DOO service terminating at an unstaffed terminus from which there are no onward night time connections. Drunk overcarried passengers, may therefore become violent when the driver attempts to empty the train, as the passenger realises they are now stranded.

Previously the last Southbound Epsom Downs service used to tip out and run ECS back from Epsom Downs to the depot. Then a few years ago southern converted this to a nonstop passenger service at 0005 from Epsom Downs to Sutton. According to the track access application this was due to numerous incidents of staff being assaulted by drunk passengers who had been overcarried and thus stranded at the remote terminus of Epsom Downs from which there was no onward transport till the next morning. As such running it in service back to Sutton meant any overcarried passengers could travel back to Sutton from where there are at least nightbuses and taxis available, as well as additional staff to assist with locking up the train unlike at Epsom Downs.

It is interesting whether there is similar issues with the last arrivals at Shepperton that run ECS back to Strawberry Hill Depot, given that there are no nightbuses from Shepperton and there's no station staff there at that time, so could be considered a "remote terminus". Perhaps the presence of the guard on SWR services is sufficient to deter any ASB or assault, as there is 2 members of staff locking the train out of use, so the services don't need to run as unadvertised express, and instead run as ECS back to Strawberry Hill.

 

[Some guy]

At least with this one, there is a service 5 mins beforehand that can do the Preston to Lancaster section (assuming its running, which considering its TPE is nowhere near a certainty)

Exactly with how hopeless TPE are they could easy run it from Preston and that will mean 5 services a day between Preston and Windermere. It’s bonkers how it’s Blackpool crewed but can’t run it in service until Lancaster

 

[Sm5]

Yes as I understand it the Hayes unadvertised expresses to Lewisham run as passenger services due to antisocial behaviour and the heightened risk that poses with a DOO service terminating at an unstaffed terminus from which there are no onward night time connections. Drunk overcarried passengers, may therefore become violent when the driver attempts to empty the train, as the passenger realises they are now stranded.

Previously the last Southbound Epsom Downs service used to tip out and run ECS back from Epsom Downs to the depot. Then a few years ago southern converted this to a nonstop passenger service at 0005 from Epsom Downs to Sutton. According to the track access application this was due to numerous incidents of staff being assaulted by drunk passengers who had been overcarried and thus stranded at the remote terminus of Epsom Downs from which there was no onward transport till the next morning. As such running it in service back to Sutton meant any overcarried passengers could travel back to Sutton from where there are at least nightbuses and taxis available, as well as additional staff to assist with locking up the train unlike at Epsom Downs.

It is interesting whether there is similar issues with the last arrivals at Shepperton that run ECS back to Strawberry Hill Depot, given that there are no nightbuses from Shepperton and there's no station staff there at that time, so could be considered a "remote terminus". Perhaps the presence of the guard on SWR services is sufficient to deter any ASB or assault, as there is 2 members of staff locking the train out of use, so the services don't need to run as unadvertised express, and instead run as ECS back to Strawberry Hill.

What staff, its DOO, never seen any station staff on that line ?

 

[westcoaster]

Most of the early and late ECS trains change destinations depending on engineering works. So if they were to be in service replacement buses would be needed to replace the train.

Example would be the Southern ones. Depending on works taking place trains might change from Epsom to Streatham hill/selhurst/London bridge/Victoria. Making it a mess to run scheduled service's.

 

[jayah]

The timetable planning rules in this particular case dictate that it cannot be a passenger train. At Carmarthen, a passenger arrival from Paddington requires a minimum of 25 mins of platform time (‘turnaround allowance’) before departing as another passenger service, which allows recovery time if the inbound service is delayed, protecting passengers journey times. As ECS moves are less time-sensitive the minimum requirement if the unit arrives Passenger but departs ECS is only 10 mins. In this case the path cannot run later due to other services on the graph.

The balancing working from Swansea back to Carmarthen is, however, a passenger train, because the Carmarthen turnaround requirement for a passenger train from Swansea (relatively short distance) is also only 10 mins, on the basis that far less can go wrong compared to a 4hr journey from Padd.

In the week the 1047 arrival at Carmarthen, or thereabouts, returns to London at 1127. On Saturdays, the latter starts at Pembroke Dock, so it looks like it runs empty just to get out of the way, as there is nothing else for it to do.

A lot of these rules are illogical and counterproductive, given the obvious contingency of not running west of Swansea in the event of a delay. Also at Carmarthen, the 1446 arrival from Manchester, forms the 1501 departure to Cardiff, both in passenger service.

Perhaps the secret is to start them from Old Oak Common when HS2 opens, neatly swerving all rules that apply exclusively to 'Paddington'?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In the week the 1047 arrival at Carmarthen, or thereabouts, returns to London at 1127. On Saturdays, the latter starts at Pembroke Dock, so it looks like it runs empty just to get out of the way, as there is nothing else for it to do.

A lot of these rules are illogical and counterproductive, given the obvious contingency of not running west of Swansea in the event of a delay. Also at Carmarthen, the 1446 arrival from Manchester, forms the 1501 departure to Cardiff, both in passenger service.

Perhaps the secret is to start them from Old Oak Common when HS2 opens, neatly swerving all rules that apply exclusively to 'Paddington'?

As with all things in the Timetable Planning Rules, it’s a consensus of agreement / compromise to maintain a workable plan while acknowledging the status quo. So I suspect the 15 min turnaround from Manchester (which is generous compared to some in the past!) probably wouldnt be accepted as a new service proposal now, but when the Marches and West Wales services were routinely joined up 20 years ago it was a different world and a different set of compromises.

There is very much the ‘spirit‘ of the rules as well as the ‘letter’, so anyone applying common sense to the timetable valienation would quickly see through the Old Oak suggestion (I know it was in jest!)

 

[snookertam]

Should these first/last services start/terminate at Motherwell?

Realtime Trains | 5M71 0525 Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. to Newton | 14/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5M71 0525 departure from Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. to Newton on 14/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5P22 2348 Newton to Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. | 14/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5P22 2348 departure from Newton to Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. on 14/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

They could but running ECS provides the opportunity for them to run between Newton and Glasgow Central should there be a Motherwell driver unavailable, thereby protecting the first/last Glasgow central to/from Newton services. In fact that’s what they used to do, running to/from Motherwell is a relatively recent introduction.

Given that there’s not likely much demand for such a service at that time of night or morning given that Motherwell has far more direct routes to the city, it’s probably not worth introducing.

 

[pompeyfan]

There are a lot of Southern services that run ECS to Portsmouth / Southampton (collecting OBS at Barnham), or run back in the opposite direction. There’s services always seemed like an “easy win” as they’re fully crewed. I can only assume they can’t run in service as they need to be off the running line by xx:xx and the added station dwells, even if on at principle stations, would then fall foul of overnight blocks.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There are a lot of Southern services that run ECS to Portsmouth / Southampton (collecting OBS at Barnham), or run back in the opposite direction. There’s services always seemed like an “easy win” as they’re fully crewed. I can only assume they can’t run in service as they need to be off the running line by xx:xx and the added station dwells, even if on at principle stations, would then fall foul of overnight blocks.

These trains are very unlikely to generate any extra revenue but will require the cost of rail replacement when there is engineering work so converting them to passenger trains would end up loosing the railway money.

 

[pompeyfan]

These trains are very unlikely to generate any extra revenue but will require the cost of rail replacement when there is engineering work so converting them to passenger trains would end up loosing the railway money.

But those ECS nearly always run, as the inbound passenger services run.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But those ECS nearly always run, as the inbound passenger services run.

If there’s engineering work the inbound passenger services will be replaced by buses.

Buses are slower so the bus won’t get to Portsmouth for example to form the return working so another bus will be added. This soon adds cost for probably no extra revenue.

 

[JonathanH]

The last two Southern trains to Reigate each night run back to Redhill not in service which means people's evening ends at 2300, despite there being later trains from Redhill back to London, and similarly southbound that could form connections.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The last two Southern trains to Reigate each night run back to Redhill not in service which means people's evening ends at 2300, despite there being later trains from Redhill back to London, and similarly southbound that could form connections.

No, people’s evenings in Reigate need not end at 23.00, they can catch the 00.24 departure from Reigate and change at Redhill for a connection northwards towards Croydon and London or remain on the train to Gatwick changing there for a connection towards Brighton.

 

[JonathanH]

No, people’s evenings in Reigate do not end at 23.00, they can catch the 00.24 departure from Reigate and change at Redhill for a connection northwards towards Croydon and London.

Only on a Sunday. On a weekday and Saturday, the late Gatwick service at 00.49 helpfully doesn't connect with the last northbound train to London at Redhill (and is a bit late anyway).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Only on a Sunday. On a weekday, the late Gatwick service helpfully doesn't connect with the last northbound train to London at Redhill (and is a bit late anyway).

Apologies, just realised I had looked at the wrong day.

The gap of course used to be filled by the 22.34 Reading to Gatwick….

 

[JonathanH]

Apologies, just realised I had looked at the wrong day.

The gap of course used to be filled by the 22.34 Reading to Gatwick….

Yes, Southern used the availability of that service as a means of justifying that their trains didn't need to run back to Redhill in service, although it wasn't ideal for a London connection, as GTR dropped the Redhill call in the last Brighton to Victoria service. However, this has since been restored, but with no connection from Reigate.

 

[mlambeuk]

Approx 08:00 York to Selby ECS movement every morning.

 

[156421]

5C99 0418 Barrow C.S. to Lancaster

Could easily be used for passengers.

 

[30907]

5C99 0418 Barrow C.S. to Lancaster

Could easily be used for passengers.

Provided it has a guard from Barrow.

In which case it might just as well run half an hour later and terminate at Carnforth - I doubt there's a vast demand for Lancaster-Morecambe via Carnforth at 0519.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A much trodden path - we used to be asked back in the day why ECS off the West London line and the North London line at daft times could not run in service and carry some probably ticketless passengers. (the stock used to go to Euston for minimal cleaning -)

Answer "no" - such was the complexity of possessions etc - said stock often used to end up in all sorts of places - like Richmond / Stratford / Willesden Low Level etc. Why cause more grief than there was in the normal traffic day.

 

[David Goddard]

Found one last week I thought was unusual.
2E14 1704 Didcot to Moreton-in-Marsh arrives at 1810 then does 5E16 ecs to Evesham before working 2E16 at 1851 from there back to Oxford. Seems odd 2E14 doesn’t run in service through to Evesham.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think a lot of movements out of Streatham Hill carriage sidings going towards Victoria would be useful for passenger runs - especially on a Saturday morning when Balham fills out quickly and the poor souls at Wandsworth Common have to watch a Mitcham line and a West Croydon train run by fast