EMR Class 170 updates

[py_megapixel]

Yep, although it’s annoying they won’t be used on Liverpool to Norwich even though EMR are now retaining the Nottingham to Liverpool part of the route...

Eventually they'll surely have to be? Unless it'll be 810s.

The only other thing I can think is retaining 158s, in which case I hope they take a leaf out of TPEs book and make all services 6-car.

 

[Domh245]

Yep, although it’s annoying they won’t be used on Liverpool to Norwich even though EMR are now retaining the Nottingham to Liverpool part of the route...

As discussed before, the reason they're starting on the Robin Hood line is because it minimises the amount of training that needs to be done (or more accurately, reduces the chance of an untrained crew finding it in the platform for their next train) Not to mention that 4x 158 is higher capacity than 3x 170

 

[Devon Sunset]

418 due to leave for EMR on 01/11.

 

[OTRail]

As discussed before, the reason they're starting on the Robin Hood line is because it minimises the amount of training that needs to be done (or more accurately, reduces the chance of an untrained crew finding it in the platform for their next train) Not to mention that 4x 158 is higher capacity than 3x 170

They won’t be used on Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich at all I believe - not enough Turbostars are being transferred to fill in the gaps caused by EMR retaining the service. Likelihood is these will be operated by 185s...

 

[Scotrail314209]

I don't believe there are anymore 170s coming away from Scotrail to go to EMR.

All the 170s that were due to go off have now left or will be leaving.

All the 170s that are staying here have been refurbished, with some earlier Scotrail refurbs going for modifications.

 

[py_megapixel]

Likelihood is these will be operated by 185s...

Typo for 158s, or do you think the TPE units will be transferred to EMR?

 

[Energy]

Sounds like the ideal solution would be to swap the 156s with Northern 150s and send them down south...

I doubt Southern would agree to that. Why would they give up 171s for much worse 150s?

 

[py_megapixel]

I doubt Southern would agree to that. Why would they give up 171s for much worse 150s?

Because it makes more operational sense for the railway as a whole?

 

[Domh245]

They won’t be used on Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich at all I believe - not enough Turbostars are being transferred to fill in the gaps caused by EMR retaining the service. Likelihood is these will be operated by 185s...

I don't see the 185s transferring myself personally, there's not enough of them nor anywhere convenient for them to be worked on. 158s are the obvious choice for the route and I don't see why 170s would be preferable to 158s apart from dealing with the Castlefield Corridor and potentially more reliable air con. The 158s have a higher capacity when coupled as a 4 car unit than a 3 car 170, and the advantage of walk through compared to 2x 170s coupled.

 

[Energy]

Because it makes more operational sense for the railway as a whole?

And? Southern's interests aren't in the East Midlands, it doesn't make that much sense anyway, it would be a lot easier for EMR to keep on some 158s than Southern to have to retrain staff on worse trains. Southern will give up the 171s if a suitable replacement is found, I don't think the 150s are suitable as they have a much worse passenger experience, are older and have no advantage for Southern over the 171s.

 

[Qwerty133]

And? Southern's interests aren't in the East Midlands, it doesn't make that much sense anyway, it would be a lot easier for EMR to keep on some 158s than Southern to have to retrain staff on worse trains. Southern will give up the 171s if a suitable replacement is found, I don't think the 150s are suitable as they have a much worse passenger experience, are older and have no advantage for Southern over the 171s.

But EMR have already secured a lease on the 171s so it's not about whether the 150s are as good as the 170s but rather whether they are somewhat suitable, for which the answer in undoubtedly yes. Furthermore under the new system of operation that gives the government more control it would be political suicide for a government that claims it is levelling up the north to allow inferior stock that they had already promised to replace to continue operating in the north so that the south can retain superior stock.

 

[Energy]

But EMR have already secured a lease on the 171s so it's not about whether the 150s are as good as the 171s but rather whether they are somewhat suitable

Depends if Southern see them as a suitable replacement, I doubt they do.

Furthermore under the new system of operation that gives the government more control it would be political suicide for a government that claims it is levelling up the north to allow inferior stock that they had already promised to replace to continue operating in the north so that the south can retain superior stock.

170s were never promised, the Southern ones would only come if a suitable replacement is found (what Southern want is probably electrification).

I wouldn't call it political suicide, so far these trains are not coming so nothing is changing. They are also still second hand trains and are diesel so they aren't a massive political win anyway. They would just be viewed as hand me downs from the south by people in the East Midlands and people in the South will be annoyed that they now get worse trains, they are already annoyed by still having 313s.

 

[py_megapixel]

Southern's interests aren't in the East Midlands

And I think this illustrates a rather important problem with the railway: local tribalism and lack of joined-up thinking between TOCs. Pretty ironic for an institution that is entirely intended to connect a wide area...

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't see the 185s transferring myself personally, there's not enough of them nor anywhere convenient for them to be worked on. 158s are the obvious choice for the route and I don't see why 170s would be preferable to 158s apart from dealing with the Castlefield Corridor and potentially more reliable air con. The 158s have a higher capacity when coupled as a 4 car unit than a 3 car 170, and the advantage of walk through compared to 2x 170s coupled.

Also completely unsuitable east of Nottingham due to the large number and scale of sprinter differential speed limits which 170s can follow but 185s cannot (meaning 185s wouldn't be able to keep to the current timetable).

 

[fgwrich]

Robin Hood line from Monday subject to a unit being available. 0605/0926/1226/1526/1755/2055 Notts - Worksop and return though 02/11 only the diagram will start with the 1226 for the launch. Further diagrams from December.

Going into service un-refurbished then. EMR Passengers, enjoy / unlucky, they were in a dire state when they left ScotRail.

 

[Energy]

And I think this illustrates a rather important problem with the railway: local tribalism and lack of joined-up thinking between TOCs. Pretty ironic for an institution that is entirely intended to connect a wide area...

Is it a problem? Joined up thinking could help but if all parties are happy, the south will not be happy to have 150s replace 171s just as the North would not be happy to loose some of its 158s for 150s and Pacers so GWR can have more 158s.

The 171s aren't even best suited for EMR, see Bletchleyite's point on their worse acceleration makes them less suitable.

Currently the 171s are not coming to EMR, if a suitable replacement is found then they will come. Whether this is correct or if Southern should take on 150s is for another thread.

 

[Devon Sunset]

I don't believe there are anymore 170s coming away from Scotrail to go to EMR.

All the 170s that were due to go off have now left or will be leaving.

All the 170s that are staying here have been refurbished, with some earlier Scotrail refurbs going for modifications.

It’s currently stopped for handback repairs so it’s definitely off somewhere. EMR seems logical.

 

[OTRail]

Typo for 158s, or do you think the TPE units will be transferred to EMR?

A proposal has been made for the 15 185s going off lease with TPE to run Liverpool to Nottingham, although I think EMR will somehow get additional 170s to run it. They seem pretty set on their “3 fleet” policy...

I don't see the 185s transferring myself personally, there's not enough of them nor anywhere convenient for them to be worked on. 158s are the obvious choice for the route and I don't see why 170s would be preferable to 158s apart from dealing with the Castlefield Corridor and potentially more reliable air con. The 158s have a higher capacity when coupled as a 4 car unit than a 3 car 170, and the advantage of walk through compared to 2x 170s coupled.

Bare in mind by the time the 185s move to EMR (IF it happens), the route would’ve been split so that only Liverpool to Nottingham would be run by the units. Also, I can imagine that for most of the day they’ll be operating in 6 car formations (I.e. peak times), which will be more manageable compared to when the service ran to Norwich.

 

[Bevan Price]

Energy said:


I doubt Southern would agree to that. Why would they give up 171s for much worse 150s?

Because it makes more operational sense for the railway as a whole?

Since when have "sense" and "DfT", etc. been compatible ??

 

[Qwerty133]

A proposal has been made for the 15 185s going off lease with TPE to run Liverpool to Nottingham, although I think EMR will somehow get additional 170s to run it. They seem pretty set on their “3 fleet” policy...


Bare in mind by the time the 185s move to EMR (IF it happens), the route would’ve been split so that only Liverpool to Nottingham would be run by the units. Also, I can imagine that for most of the day they’ll be operating in 6 car formations (I.e. peak times), which will be more manageable compared to when the service ran to Norwich.

If there are too many 185s for TPE the best (and probably only suitable) place for them is almost certainly Northern as this will allow them to be maintained out of their current depot and there will be some level of staff familiarity. If the 15 185s and the EMR 156s transfer to Northern this will be able to free up the Northern fleet of 28 150/2s and at least a few Northern 170s. The 150/2s gives the ideal number of coaches to free up all of the 171s from Southern which combined with a couple of 170s from Northern should provide EMR with enough 170/1s for a uniform fleet while operating the Liverpool-Norwich service.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Depends if Southern see them as a suitable replacement, I doubt they do.

170s were never promised, the Southern ones would only come if a suitable replacement is found (what Southern want is probably electrification).

I wouldn't call it political suicide, so far these trains are not coming so nothing is changing. They are also still second hand trains and are diesel so they aren't a massive political win anyway. They would just be viewed as hand me downs from the south by people in the East Midlands and people in the South will be annoyed that they now get worse trains, they are already annoyed by still having 313s.

Possibly the wrong thread for this answer but I recently asked Southern what was going to replace the 171s. The answer was that it wasn't decided yet, but there are some proofs of concept in development, which include hydrogen and battery, but there was still discussion about electrification. This then caused me to contact the guy at the RSSB dealing with the investigation in to the possibility of more 3rd rail. The team is due to report at the end of 2021/beginning 2022. Reading between the lines I suspect that if the RSSB come out with a scheme for 3rd rail infill the Uckfield line will be electrified and the Marshlink will get a battery hybrid. However it will be what 2025 before the 171s are released for EMR.

 

[Energy]

The answer was that it wasn't decided yet, but there are some proofs of concept in development, which include hydrogen and battery, but there was still discussion about electrification.

Battery 377s were said to be going to Southern for a while.

This then caused me to contact the guy at the RSSB dealing with the investigation in to the possibility of more 3rd rail. The team is due to report at the end of 2021/beginning 2022. Reading between the lines I suspect that if the RSSB come out with a scheme for 3rd rail infill the Uckfield line will be electrified and the Marshlink will get a battery hybrid.

Interesting, guess we will see what happens.

However it will be what 2025 before the 171s are released for EMR.

Yeah, back onto the EMR 170s I think it is safe to say that the 171s will not be joining for a few more years.

 

[OTRail]

If there are too many 185s for TPE the best (and probably only suitable) place for them is almost certainly Northern as this will allow them to be maintained out of their current depot and there will be some level of staff familiarity. If the 15 185s and the EMR 156s transfer to Northern this will be able to free up the Northern fleet of 28 150/2s and at least a few Northern 170s. The 150/2s gives the ideal number of coaches to free up all of the 171s from Southern which combined with a couple of 170s from Northern should provide EMR with enough 170/1s for a uniform fleet while operating the Liverpool-Norwich service.

I couldn’t think of a worse place for the 185s - Northern just ordered a brand new fleet of 195s and spent millions of pounds refurbishing not only the 170s but also the 150s - it makes no financial sense for that to occur. Not to mention the 185s aren’t suitable for a lot of their routes due to weight restrictions...

Anyways back to the 170s - given the 196s are about to enter service and the /6s are having their centre cars removed, I can imagine the WMR units will be transferring relatively soon?

 

[Chiltern006]

Theoretically it was going to be every EMR DMU route, because that’s the only class they intended to operate. But the Liverpool Nottingham decision has changed that...

apparently class 185s will come down from TPE and do that route, but will be leased to emr, that's only gen I've heard, but I do know that 185s have a new home already

 

[Minstral25]

Because it makes more operational sense for the railway as a whole?

Can a Class 150 keep to Class 171 times between London Bridge and East Croydon which is an intensely worked piece of Railway that a few seconds delay causes a massive knock on effect right across the Southern and Thameslink networks?

Can a Class 150 do 100 mph on that fast section to keep time? Can a class 150 accelerate as well as a 171?

Can class 150 work as 6 units in multiple to operate at the same length as Class 171 do daily?

No? probably not - then why does it make more operational sense to swap an effective unit that does the job to create more delays and completely mess up the Thameslink Timetable. It wouldn't and lack of performance would stop this swap.

Additionally if no adequate replacement is found will it be politically acceptable to replace all trains on Uckfield route with Buses. So unlikely 171's will be taken without a replacement in place.

 

[RichJF]

Just to add in another point about 150s to Southern. AFAIK mk3-based stock is banned from the Oxted tunnel due to tight clearances & the risk of hitting the walls.

 

[Sprinter107]

Can a Class 150 keep to Class 171 times between London Bridge and East Croydon which is an intensely worked piece of Railway that a few seconds delay causes a massive knock on effect right across the Southern and Thameslink networks?

Can a Class 150 do 100 mph on that fast section to keep time? Can a class 150 accelerate as well as a 171?

Can class 150 work as 6 units in multiple to operate at the same length as Class 171 do daily?

No? probably not - then why does it make more operational sense to swap an effective unit that does the job to create more delays and completely mess up the Thameslink Timetable. It wouldn't and lack of performance would stop this swap.

Additionally if no adequate replacement is found will it be politically acceptable to replace all trains on Uckfield route with Buses. So unlikely 171's will be taken without a replacement in place.

Where do 171s do 100mph on the Uckfield services.
Yes, 150s can be made up to 12 cars
Yes, they can accelerate faster than a 171.

 

[bunnahabhain]

A proposal has been made for the 15 185s going off lease with TPE to run Liverpool to Nottingham, although I think EMR will somehow get additional 170s to run it. They seem pretty set on their “3 fleet” policy...


Bare in mind by the time the 185s move to EMR (IF it happens), the route would’ve been split so that only Liverpool to Nottingham would be run by the units. Also, I can imagine that for most of the day they’ll be operating in 6 car formations (I.e. peak times), which will be more manageable compared to when the service ran to Norwich.

There aren't any 170s available anywhere to run the route. Rule extra 170s out of the equation beyond what the franchise has already committed to lease.

 

[OTRail]

There aren't any 170s available anywhere to run the route. Rule extra 170s out of the equation beyond what the franchise has already committed to lease.

Yet somehow they snapped up the 171s from Southern in a similar situation to TPE and Chiltern Railways...

It’s hard to predict what will happen regarding the stock for that route, but I can only see the 185s or extra 170s operating it.

 

[Energy]

Yet somehow they snapped up the 171s from Southern in a similar situation to TPE and Chiltern Railways...

This is not like Chiltern. The DfT forced the 170s to be converted to 168s and be sent to Chiltern, it's in their requirements for the bids for the franchise that the 170s will leave. The 171s are not leaving until a suitable replacement goes to Southern, Southern do not have to let them go like TPE did.

Currently the 171s are not leaving Southern.