EMR Class 170 updates

[Failed Unit]

Do the meridians have SDO? If so, you could definitely use 6 or 7 car ones - think a 5 car meridian only has as many seats as a 4 car 158 (if not less), so wouldn't be a capacity upgrade between nottingham and liverpool.

Yes they do, they already serve platforms they won't fit on (such as Lincoln - Nottingham)

It is true, but look what Great Western did with the HSTs. I am sure they could reseat the 222's to a high density layout.

Back on Topic, the dwell times on a 170 are much better. You could really tell on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route when a 3 car 170 was subbed for 2x 158s. As you say at Manchester I am sure it matters. Considering they are talking about reforming trains, I wonder if there is anything to stop them make a 4 car 170 for Liverpool - Nottingham (and us 3 car 158s on some of the regional routes). I am personally would prefer the 5 car 158 between Nottingham and Liverpool as they tend to stay warmer then the 170s (which isn't a good thing in the summer)

EMR are certainly struggling with overcrowding at the moment, not all of it cause by the reduced timetable. Some services running at full frequency are leaving passengers behind.

 

[TheBigD]

Currently the 158s that ply the Liverpool-Norwich route have 142 seats, so 284 seats on a 4 car working.
Currently almost all of the 222 5 car sets (a couple a have recently been reformed) have 50 1st + 190 std seats, so 240 seats for a 5 car train.

Even if you were to "lumo-ise" them to all standard class/airline seating, you would still only be looking at around max 280 seats.
So still less seats than a 4 car 158, higher access charges, higher fuel costs, unable to run at higher "SP" speeds, particularly east of Ely, etc etc.

Why do 222s keep getting suggested for the route when they are pretty unsuitable in a lot of respects?
Similarly with the Voyagers on the XC 170 routes?

 

[43102EMR]

Why do 222s keep getting suggested for the route when they are pretty unsuitable in a lot of respects?
Similarly with the Voyagers on the XC 170 routes?

Was about to say exactly the same thing - the 222s will be deployed to another Intercity route most likely, highly doubt EMR will shove them on a regional route where they would be better off with the likes of CrossCountry and Grand Central…

 

[class397tpe]

Was about to say exactly the same thing - the 222s will be deployed to another Intercity route most likely, highly doubt EMR will shove them on a regional route where they would be better off with the likes of CrossCountry and Grand Central…

True. I personally don't think the 222s would be a good fit - not enough capacity and 125mph isn't needed.
Would be nice to have some more modern stock than 158s though, it may not be "intercity" line speed, but it does connect some of the UKs biggest cities so deserves better.
Some flirts would be nice in 8-car formation, could have the vestibule doors like the class 745s have (assuming car lengths of the 755, an 8-car train would be around 140m long, so around 6 class 158 carriages, which I'd argue is needed).

We can dream...

 

[Prestige15]

Do the meridians have SDO? If so, you could definitely use 6 or 7 car ones - think a 5 car meridian only has as many seats as a 4 car 158 (if not less), so wouldn't be a capacity upgrade between nottingham and liverpool.

They do. a 7/9/10 car do stop at stations with short platforms such as Long Eaton, Warrington and Liverpool South Parkway. And would probably be a upgrade over the 158 if the whole first class section was converted to standard, It would probably be the second high speed train thats standard class only after Lumo

 

[317 forever]

There are of course some ex-ScotRail class 170s with Northern. In retrospect, it would have been reasonable and potentially simpler for Northern to have more 158s and EMR more 170s. Such direct swaps tend not to happen though. In any case, the 170s have been refurbished by Northern now.

 

[class397tpe]

There are of course some ex-ScotRail class 170s with Northern. In retrospect, it would have been reasonable and potentially simpler for Northern to have more 158s and EMR more 170s. Such direct swaps tend not to happen though. In any case, the 170s have been refurbished by Northern now.

Oy, hands off our 170s. They are brilliant on the Sheffield to Scarborough route.

 

[43102EMR]

Oy, hands off our 170s. They are brilliant on the Sheffield to Scarborough route.

Why I think the ones on the Harrogate Line should either be transferred or moved on to another route - they’re much better used on routes such as the Sheffield to Scarborough route…

 

[Essex Express]

Better would be use the class 175 units when TFW gets rid of them that should be 16 three car units and 11 two car units. So If you use the 3 car sets on Norwich to Liverpool and attach and detach 2 car unit at Nottingham then you would have a 5 car to Liverpool to Nottingham section that would give just over 300 seats.

 

[43102EMR]

Better would be use the class 175 units when TFW gets rid of them that should be 16 three car units and 11 two car units. So If you use the 3 car sets on Norwich to Liverpool and attach and detach 2 car unit at Nottingham then you would have a 5 car to Liverpool to Nottingham section that would give just over 300 seats.

Problem is the incompatibility with the 170s for multiple workings, which is a solution retaining the 158s provides. A topic for another thread, but they’re far better off with an operator such as GWR or Chiltern anyways.

 

[Roast Veg]

Problem is the incompatibility with the 170s for multiple workings, which is a solution retaining the 158s provides. A topic for another thread, but they’re far better off with an operator such as GWR or Chiltern anyways.

I would consider multiple working 158/170 very unlikely - wouldn't you lose your PIS?

 

[43102EMR]

I would consider multiple working 158/170 very unlikely - wouldn't you lose your PIS?

Most likely, but never say never - would also be useful in the event that one or the other fails and needs to be rescued.

 

[class397tpe]

Most likely, but never say never - would also be useful in the event that one or the other fails and needs to be rescued.

Doesn't scotrail do this pretty regularly? E.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y59075/2022-06-05/detailed#allox_id=0

Or do they have a different PIS system?

 

[liamf656]

Most likely, but never say never - would also be useful in the event that one or the other fails and needs to be rescued.

They do operate in multiple when stock movements are taking place, however the rear unit is always locked out of use. I believe the PIS and some other electrical systems have not been compatible since the Spritners were refurbished in Stagecoach days

 

[Wolfie]

There are of course some ex-ScotRail class 170s with Northern. In retrospect, it would have been reasonable and potentially simpler for Northern to have more 158s and EMR more 170s. Such direct swaps tend not to happen though. In any case, the 170s have been refurbished by Northern now.

A lot harder when multiple ROSCOs are involved and each TOC seems to have different equipment fits.

 

[Roast Veg]

They do operate in multiple when stock movements are taking place, however the rear unit is always locked out of use. I believe the PIS and some other electrical systems have not been compatible since the Spritners were refurbished in Stagecoach days

It's well within the wit of man to fit compatible systems if and when both fleets are refurbished, but I can't see it being worth it. The PIS on the 158s is pretty poor from a passenger perspective, both on EMR and ScotRail.

 

[QSK19]

Oy, hands off our 170s. They are brilliant on the Sheffield to Scarborough route.

Haha, always ignites a spark whenever a suggestion is directly or indirectly made that Northern should swap its 170s for EMR’s 158s!

To be fair, I caught a Northern 170 several months ago and it looked amazing compared to EMR’s ones - I don’t blame those people from Northern-land for being so defensive of them. Suffice to say that, until the promised refurbishment of EMR’s 170s takes place and we actually see the final result, the difference is night and day.

 

[class397tpe]

Haha, always ignites a spark whenever a suggestion is directly or indirectly made that Northern should swap its 170s for EMR’s 158s!

To be fair, I caught a Northern 170 several months ago and it looked amazing compared to EMR’s ones - I don’t blame those people from Northern-land for being so defensive of them. Suffice to say that, until the promised refurbishment of EMR’s 170s takes place and we actually see the final result, the difference is night and day.

Haha same, Northern has done a smashing job with them. They are a joy to ride. Don't take them from us :P

Northern have done a pretty good job refurbishing all their units as well - just getting on with it without making a big deal out of it... I wish EMR could be the same and just have quietly and efficiently got on with refurbishments.

 

[Failed Unit]

Haha same, Northern has done a smashing job with them. They are a joy to ride. Don't take them from us :P

Northern have done a pretty good job refurbishing all their units as well - just getting on with it without making a big deal out of it... I wish EMR could be the same and just have quietly and efficiently got on with refurbishments.

But which services would you not run while the refurbish the trains. Sadly EMR are so short of units (because other TOCs took the risk of ordering unproven stock) that they can’t run their timetable so sadly can’t have stock out for luxury things like refurbishment. I don’t like the situation but I would rather have more trains timetabled then a refurbished train.

hopefully CAF sort out their trains soon so EMR can actually think about running a full timetable (the refurbishment of trains)

 

[class397tpe]

But which services would you not run while the refurbish the trains. Sadly EMR are so short of units (because other TOCs took the risk of ordering unproven stock) that they can’t run their timetable so sadly can’t have stock out for luxury things like refurbishment. I don’t like the situation but I would rather have more trains timetabled then a refurbished train.

hopefully CAF sort out their trains soon so EMR can actually think about running a full timetable (the refurbishment of trains)

Yeah that's fair enough - northern has a lot more slack. The rest of the 170s can't come soon enough!

 

[QSK19]

But which services would you not run while the refurbish the trains. Sadly EMR are so short of units (because other TOCs took the risk of ordering unproven stock) that they can’t run their timetable so sadly can’t have stock out for luxury things like refurbishment. I don’t like the situation but I would rather have more trains timetabled then a refurbished train.

hopefully CAF sort out their trains soon so EMR can actually think about running a full timetable (the refurbishment of trains)

As painful as it is to admit it, yes I’d also rather take unrefurbished trains which are actually running as opposed to suffering even worse stock shortages due to trains being in the factory undergoing their refurb.

Also, whilst I’d have preferred a new train order for its Regional operation (remembering that the East Midlands franchise has never had any new non-IC stock; and also the risks of waiting for cascaded stock have been playing out in front of us for ages), at least the 170s do represent a step forward in terms of modernisation. To go from trains built between the mid-80s & early-90s to ones built between 1999-2002 is a decent advancement.

Nevertheless, the refurbishment, once it eventually happens, had better be a decent one - EMR’s (and its predecessors’) passengers have gone through enough disappointment since CT’s stock was split up that they deserve nothing but the best possible refurbishment. Let’s really hope the DfT doesn’t let us down.

 

[Failed Unit]

As painful as it is to admit it, yes I’d also rather take unrefurbished trains which are actually running as opposed to suffering even worse stock shortages due to trains being in the factory undergoing their refurb.

Also, whilst I’d have preferred a new train order for its Regional operation (remembering that the East Midlands franchise has never had any new non-IC stock; and also the risks of waiting for cascaded stock have been playing out in front of us for ages), at least the 170s do represent a step forward in terms of modernisation. To go from trains built between the mid-80s & early-90s to ones built between 1999-2002 is a decent advancement.

Nevertheless, the refurbishment, once it eventually happens, had better be a decent one - EMR’s (and its predecessors’) passengers have gone through enough disappointment since CT’s stock was split up that they deserve nothing but the best possible refurbishment. Let’s really hope the DfT doesn’t let us down.

I do fear the worse to be honest with the current situation. I know northern are desperate for the 156s. Not sure if West Midlands are suffering as badly (but I would hope they would be forced to release extra stock if they did have excess)

It is amazing even now we are having people left behind because trains are too full (on lines operated by 153s recently). The extra 3 car trains can’t come soon enough. But so to can the frequency that was promised when the franchise was let. I have a real fear this will never be delivered and demand will continue to be suppressed.

 

[170UTD]

Does anyone know what the current situation is regarding the TfW 170s to EMR, I've not read anything about it in a while?

 

[Mollman]

Does anyone know what the current situation is regarding the TfW 170s to EMR, I've not read anything about it in a while?

Same situation as the WMR 170s, waiting for new units to be introduced before they can be sent to EMR.

 

[warwickshire]

5Q55 1033 Stewarts Lane to Newport Simms was 66798 Arlington Vans and 455808 455805 on time through Patchway. 2 more 455 for scrap

 

[fgwrich]

5Q55 1033 Stewarts Lane to Newport Simms was 66798 Arlington Vans and 455808 455805 on time through Patchway. 2 more 455 for scrap

Thats sad to hear but perhaps you've put that in the wrong thread as there's no connection to EMR, TFW or 170s?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

5Q55 1033 Stewarts Lane to Newport Simms was 66798 Arlington Vans and 455808 455805 on time through Patchway. 2 more 455 for scrap

Wrong thread

 

[warwickshire]

APOLOGIES for the post on the 455 move. Mobile app went crazy when posting.

 

[SteveyBee131]

The former ScotRail 3-car units appear to be treading new ground, whether intended or accidentally. № 419 had a diagram on the Grimsby Town to Leicester yesterday, and 418 had a different one today.

 

[urpert]

I also had one between Boston and Sleaford last week. Enjoyed the declassified first class!