EMR Class 170 updates

[JaJaWa]

Refurb officially announced

East Midlands Railway (EMR) has announced the start of a £60 million programme to refurbish its fleet of Class 360, Class 158 and Class 170 trains. The project is being delivered in partnership with Angel Trains, Siemens, Porterbrook, and Eversholt and leverages significant private sector investment. All the work will be carried out in the UK providing a significant boost to the supply chain. Together with the introduction of the new Aurora Intercity trains, this will mean that all of EMR's trains will either be replaced with new trains or refurbished.

EMR's Class 170 fleet operates regional services across the East Midlands including, Matlock to Derby and Nottingham, Nottingham to Worksop via Mansfield, Newark Castle to Crewe via Nottingham, Derby and Stoke-On-Trent, Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln, Nottingham to Skegness via Grantham, Cleethorpes to Leicester via Lincoln and Nottingham, and Cleethorpes to Barton on Humber.

The trains have come to EMR from different operators and will be upgraded to provide a consistent customer experience across the fleet. All trains will receive new seat foams and covers, an extensive refresh as well as new passenger information systems and CCTV.

Source: https://twitter.com/TodaysRailways/status/1770468210187407507/

 

[Liverpool 507]

At last and about time!

Good news for 170 and 360 regular users.

 

[RealTrains07]

At last and about time!

Good news for 170 and 360 regular users.

Only taken them, how many years? 3

 

[Kite159]

No mention of charging sockets in that press release (compared to the mention on the 360s), which in my eyes is a massive oversight.

 

[Killingworth]

No mention of charging sockets in that press release (compared to the mention on the 360s), which in my eyes is a massive oversight.

Or wi-fi! The only operator of the 3 between Sheffield and Manchester without - although all the tunnels and countryside make that a bit patchy.

One or two 158s have USB sockets between the seats if you know where to feel for them.

 

[RealTrains07]

The press release is a bit messy and could’ve actually just simply listed everything being added/changed in the refurbishment for each of the 3 fleets.

Would’ve been a lot clearer and easier to read

 

[MCR247]

Refurb officially announced



Source: https://twitter.com/TodaysRailways/status/1770468210187407507/

Interesting that it says the 170s will be upgraded to a consistent offering when only some of them are getting new seats?

 

[Nottingham59]

Interesting that it says the 170s will be upgraded to a consistent offering when only some of them are getting new seats?

"All trains will receive new seat foams and covers". Won't that be enough in many cases?

 

[MCR247]

"All trains will receive new seat foams and covers". Won't that be enough in many cases?

I suppose so. It’s more that after initially being promised a full refurb of whole fleet, it got delayed and delayed and now isn’t even a full refurb. So advertising you’re upgrading the fleet to a consistent offering, which won’t be all that consistent, just seems like asking for trouble.

 

[ChrisC]

I suppose so. It’s more that after initially being promised a full refurb of whole fleet, it got delayed and delayed and now isn’t even a full refurb. So advertising you’re upgrading the fleet to a consistent offering, which won’t be all that consistent, just seems like asking for trouble.

Just like the large posters that were displayed on stations just before the 170’s started to be reintroduced onto EMR services. These showed pictures of 170’s informing passengers that new trains were soon to be introduced on the route. They didn’t mention that these were trains returning that used to run on the line 20 years previous.

Its still good that at least some sort of limited refurbishment is happening at last.

 

[High Dyke]

Just like the large posters that were displayed on stations just before the 170’s started to be reintroduced onto EMR services. These showed pictures of 170’s informing passengers that new trains were soon to be introduced on the route. They didn’t mention that these were trains returning that used to run on the line 20 years previous.

To go off topic: That partly reminds me of the transfer of HST power cars to Scotland. I remarked one day to a friend "welcome to Scotland's brand new 40-year old trains."

The refurbishment of the 170’s at EMR is needed, and possibly other classes of the fleet. The short-term plan was to get them into service ASAP, but then that brings it back to decisions taken elsewhere about rolling stock.

 

[Pippy1505]

170207 seems to be taking a while. Strange that 208 would come over after it but be in service first

managed one day in traffic now stood waiting an engine which has been condemned as is 203

 

[Skymonster]

Being a “cup half empty” sort of person when it comes to the railway (and a regular traveller in the EMR 170s), I’m a bit disappointed if its only seats, internal refresh, CCTV and PIS. The current incumbents promised WiFi on every train and they don’t all have it - and if Northern can add USB charging I’m sure EMR could too. Intrinsically its good news a long-overdue refurb program is [finally] being launched - better something than nothing - but I’ll reserve definitive judgement until I get to experience the results.

 

[LowLevel]

Being a “cup half empty” sort of person when it comes to the railway (and a regular traveller in the EMR 170s), I’m a bit disappointed if its only seats, internal refresh, CCTV and PIS. The current incumbents promised WiFi on every train and they don’t all have it - and if Northern can add USB charging I’m sure EMR could too. Intrinsically its good news a long-overdue refurb program is [finally] being launched - better something than nothing - but I’ll reserve definitive judgement until I get to experience the results.

The 170s will be getting 5G WiFi and some sort of sockets, can't remember if it's 3 pin or USB.

 

[QSK19]

The 170s will be getting 5G WiFi and some sort of sockets, can't remember if it's 3 pin or USB.

Is there some sort of reason why EMR hasn’t mentioned this in relation to the 170s? Is it because they know that they’ve overpromised and underdelivered for so long that they want to set the bar low in order to prove that they’ve achieved something to a higher standard than they set expectations at?

They also don’t mention the /5’s getting the Lean seats (somebody in the EMR appreciation group on Facebook states that the /4’s and /5’a are getting the Leans; and I think the /5’s getting the Leans has been mentioned on RF?), but again, EMR have stayed quiet on detailed seat specifications.

 

[LowLevel]

Is there some sort of reason why EMR hasn’t mentioned this in relation to the 170s? Is it because they know that they’ve overpromised and underdelivered for so long that they want to set the bar low in order to prove that they’ve achieved something to a higher standard than they set expectations at?

They also don’t mention the /5’s getting the Lean seats (somebody in the EMR appreciation group on Facebook states that the /4’s and /5’a are getting the Leans; and I think the /5’s getting the Leans has been mentioned on RF?), but again, EMR have stayed quiet on detailed seat specifications.

No idea.

It's in the presentation released to the unions with some renders.

 

[QSK19]

Being a “cup half empty” sort of person when it comes to the railway (and a regular traveller in the EMR 170s), I’m a bit disappointed if its only seats, internal refresh, CCTV and PIS. The current incumbents promised WiFi on every train and they don’t all have it - and if Northern can add USB charging I’m sure EMR could too. Intrinsically its good news a long-overdue refurb program is [finally] being launched - better something than nothing - but I’ll reserve definitive judgement until I get to experience the results.

I’m completely with you on this.

However, in EMR’s defence, I don’t think the DfT have been helpful in terms of providing funding for this. We’ve reached this stage over 4 years since the birth of EMR and had a very underwhelming experience thus far. Let’s hope that this refurbishment turns the corner - £60m doesn’t sound a lot though considering it’s a major refurb for 90(?)* sets.

(* 21x 360; 43x 170s; 26x 158s)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’m completely with you on this.

However, in EMR’s defence, I don’t think the DfT have been helpful in terms of providing funding for this. We’ve reached this stage over 4 years since the birth of EMR and had a very underwhelming experience thus far. Let’s hope that this refurbishment turns the corner - £60m doesn’t sound a lot though considering it’s a major refurb for 90(?)* sets.

(* 21x 360; 43x 170s; 26x 158s)

This sounds like its DafT spending 60m not getting owners to fund it through increased leasing charges which is good change of heart from DafT given the tightness of cash in the industry.

 

[IceBlue]

Where are the refurbs taking place and what’s the timeframe for the first units in?

 

[Nym]

Or wi-fi! The only operator of the 3 between Sheffield and Manchester without - although all the tunnels and countryside make that a bit patchy.

One or two 158s have USB sockets between the seats if you know where to feel for them.

Why is it, pray tell, that trains need WiFi?

 

[duffield]

Why is it, pray tell, that trains need WiFi?

Given that mobile internet access is regarded pretty much as a basic essential for a large proportion of the population now, I'm guessing (but may be wrong) that you mean this in the sense of "why should the railway provide it, as opposed to people just using their own mobile data"?

If so, I'd say it's for the following reasons:

• Some people have limited data allowances. You could argue that that is their problem and it's not for the railway to provide their data, but many businesses do this because they believe it makes them more attractive to customers and the cost of providing WiFi is outweighed by the extra custom it brings. This may or may not be the case for the railway, I've never seen any studies on this subject.
• With suitable external aerials, trains can potentially provide faster and more stable connections than customers' own phones, particularly on trains which partially block mobile signals (e.g. class 222s being notorious for this). This will be attractive particularly to business types, (often paying expensive fares) despite them probably having unlimited mobile data. Again, I've seen no evidence as to whether this actually works out in practice. Edit: And as another post mentions, the railway can also have multiple network providers to get better coverage.

So it *may* make financial sense to provide onboard WiFi, and even to add mini-masts in certain tunnels etc. like the approaches to London terminals. It would be nice to see some evidence one way or the other though. Of course, although it doesn't directly benefit the railway's finances, you could also argue that better internet connectivity on trains may slightly improve the overall productivity of the economy by allowing more work to get done on trains.

 

[Anonymous10]

Given that mobile internet access is regarded pretty much as a basic essential for a large proportion of the population now, I'm guessing (but may be wrong) that you mean this in the sense of "why should the railway provide it, as opposed to people just using their own mobile data"?

If so, I'd say it's for the following reasons:

• Some people have limited data allowances. You could argue that that is their problem and it's not for the railway to provide their data, but many businesses do this because they believe it makes them more attractive to customers and the cost of providing WiFi is outweighed by the extra custom it brings. This may or may not be the case for the railway, I've never seen any studies on this subject.
• With suitable external aerials, trains can potentially provide faster and more stable connections than customers' own phones, particularly on trains which partially block mobile signals (e.g. class 222s being notorious for this). This will be attractive particularly to business types, (often paying expensive fares) despite them probably having unlimited mobile data. Again, I've seen no evidence as to whether this actually works out in practice.

So it *may* make financial sense to provide onboard WiFi, and even to add mini-masts in certain tunnels etc. like the approaches to London terminals. It would be nice to see some evidence one way or the other though. Of course, although it doesn't directly benefit the railway's finances, you could argue that better internet connectivity on trains may also slightly improve the overall productivity of the economy by allowing more work to get done on trains.

Yes, I regularly travel by train for visits to see family, friends occasionally though on my way to scouting conferences ect. When travelling I regularly am working in some capacity and the ability to use the WiFi and for it to be strong and stable is essential.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, I regularly travel by train for visits to see family, friends occasionally though on my way to scouting conferences ect. When travelling I regularly am working in some capacity and the ability to use the WiFi and for it to be strong and stable is essential.

For interest is it. A lot of the areas EMR go through the signal isn’t the best, but of course their equipment could have multiple mobile operators. But Travelling between Newark and Lincoln for example a lot of the time the mobile networks are very weak. I suspect between Sheffield and Manchester there is very limited signal. Don’t all the 170s have wi-fi already? I am sure I have used it.

 

[Anonymous10]

For interest is it. A lot of the areas EMR go through the signal isn’t the best, but of course their equipment could have multiple mobile operators. But Travelling between Newark and Lincoln for example a lot of the time the mobile networks are very weak. I suspect between Sheffield and Manchester there is very limited signal. Don’t all the 170s have wi-fi already? I am sure I have used it.

Unfortunately I can't pass much comment, as I plan to use emr soon but have yet to.

 

[Kite159]

Having on-board WiFi is one thing. Having it reliable and useable* is another. (*even for the basics like web browsing or downloading emails)

 

[ajp999]

For interest is it. A lot of the areas EMR go through the signal isn’t the best, but of course their equipment could have multiple mobile operators. But Travelling between Newark and Lincoln for example a lot of the time the mobile networks are very weak. I suspect between Sheffield and Manchester there is very limited signal. Don’t all the 170s have wi-fi already? I am sure I have used it.

Availability is mixed from memory - the 170's from Transport for Wales don't and there are a small number of ex-London Midland ones that don't. Think the ex-Scotrail and Southern ones do. At least it's better than the 158's where none are fitted with wi-fi. I think EMR may be the only operator of 158's that don't have wi-fi.

 

[Trainman40083]

Availability is mixed from memory - the 170's from Transport for Wales don't and there are a small number of ex-London Midland ones that don't. Think the ex-Scotrail and Southern ones do. At least it's better than the 158's where none are fitted with wi-fi. I think EMR may be the only operator of 158's that don't have wi-fi.

Maybe the EMR 158s are the longest since their last refurbishment.

 

[Killingworth]

Maybe the EMR 158s are the longest since their last refurbishment.

It must have been 5 or 6 years ago that I travelled to Norwich on an EMR 158 that had very recently had some upgrades, powerful toilets that blasted a jet of of water high in the
air when flushed were particularly memorable! There were well hidden USBs and enhanced information screens. On an almost deserted train the guard was proud to explain the upgrade. At the time I assumed all the other units would at least have had USB sockets added by now.

 

[Failed Unit]

It must have been 5 or 6 years ago that I travelled to Norwich on an EMR 158 that had very recently had some upgrades, powerful toilets that blasted a jet of of water high in the
air when flushed were particularly memorable! There were well hidden USBs and enhanced information screens. On an almost deserted train the guard was proud to explain the upgrade. At the time I assumed all the other units would at least have had USB sockets added by now.

I don‘t travel on the 158s that often (the are not diagrammed into Lincolnshire but do come in) - But all the units I have had have had the USB sockets. I just assumed the only ones that were not fitted where the ones that were not reseated (ex-stagecoach SWT ones)

 

[LowLevel]

I don‘t travel on the 158s that often (the are not diagrammed into Lincolnshire but do come in) - But all the units I have had have had the USB sockets. I just assumed the only ones that were not fitted where the ones that were not reseated (ex-stagecoach SWT ones)

The Porterbrook units (the ex TPE ones) haven't got USBs fitted at present, but they're being added as part of the refresh.