EMR Class 360's

[STINT47]

EMR could at least wash their trains more frequently. At least if I'm sat in a worn out unit I can look out the window and day dream but not so much when using EMR

 

[MML]

EMR should be putting a few units a day through the wash road at Cricklewood before berthing. But I guess that's all too difficult in this joined up railway with the facilities operated by Thameslink.

Every TOC has a Service Quality Regime as part of their contract. It's just that emptying a rubbish bin and polishing a handle for a millisecond with a duster isn't the same as ingrained dirt, heavily stained carpet or threadbare upholstery.

At least the 360 moquette hides the worst of the stains. The flat cloth trim on the Meridians is covered in spillage as the regulatory take away coffee is decanted over the seats.

 

[Mikw]

One of today's early services terminated at Luton. Reason given, "Fault on train". I was on one yesterday and we were told to board only the first four coaches due to air con failure. Seems like the hot weather over the last week has really taken its toll

 

[Wolfie]

One of today's early services terminated at Luton. Reason given, "Fault on train". I was on one yesterday and we were told to board only the first four coaches due to air con failure. Seems like the hot weather over the last week has really taken its toll

Yet the same kit on 350s and 450s has been fine. Once again brings maintenance to the fore...

 

[Snow1964]

One of today's early services terminated at Luton. Reason given, "Fault on train". I was on one yesterday and we were told to board only the first four coaches due to air con failure. Seems like the hot weather over the last week has really taken its toll

Something is odd here, I remember when the virtually similar 450s were being built Siemens said each coach has dual air conditioning so if one failed other could still do most of job

The idea that all 8 units within a 4car unit suddenly give up during a service doesn't seem right to me, rather suggests shoddy maintenance left something disconnected.

And then have to wonder if maintenance is that sloppy, what else wasn't fixed, a brake control unit perhaps.

 

[fgwrich]

Yet the same kit on 350s and 450s has been fine. Once again brings maintenance to the fore...

Indeed, on my recent commutes, the majority of the Desiro’s i’ve travelled in have been like fridges. I would say I’ve only encountered one coach with a slightly defective air con, and a small handful with blown window seals.

 

[LowLevel]

Something is odd here, I remember when the virtually similar 450s were being built Siemens said each coach has dual air conditioning so if one failed other could still do most of job

The idea that all 8 units within a 4car unit suddenly give up during a service doesn't seem right to me, rather suggests shoddy maintenance left something disconnected.

And then have to wonder if maintenance is that sloppy, what else wasn't fixed, a brake control unit perhaps.

Even a 158 has dual ACUs fitted, as do 170s and so on. One still doesn't cut it, though I get that a 360 has far more power on tap.

 

[Merle Haggard]

... clip
Every TOC has a Service Quality Regime as part of their contract. It's just that emptying a rubbish bin and polishing a handle for a millisecond with a duster isn't the same as ingrained dirt, heavily stained carpet or threadbare upholstery.
clip

I think you've hit on the reason; box-ticking.

On the 222s there's usually someone who boards at Leicester and wipes over unoccupied tables, handles and picks up rubbish. Box ticked. But the windows are always opaque with dirt. An empirical example was provided by 180109. When its 5th coach was returned in March (?) it was of course very clean and provided a contrast to the other 4 dirty coaches. On its last days in service with EMR there was still the same contrast. I accept that, if they had been cleaned, they wouldn't have been quite as fresh as the repainted car, but still... Perhaps a regular traveller could write in the dirt on a window the current date and see how long it lasts.

Presumably there's not a box for 'windows cleaned'.

 

[QSK19]

I think you've hit on the reason; box-ticking.

On the 222s there's usually someone who boards at Leicester and wipes over unoccupied tables, handles and picks up rubbish. Box ticked. But the windows are always opaque with dirt. An empirical example was provided by 180109. When its 5th coach was returned in March (?) it was of course very clean and provided a contrast to the other 4 dirty coaches. On its last days in service with EMR there was still the same contrast. I accept that, if they had been cleaned, they wouldn't have been quite as fresh as the repainted car, but still... Perhaps a regular traveller could write in the dirt on a window the current date and see how long it lasts.

Presumably there's not a box for 'windows cleaned'.

It was 180110 that had the 5th car returned to service and, as you can see in the attached pic (still-shot from a video of it leaving Leicester), the repaired coach is gleaming.

But yes, I’m sure one of us can write a witty message in the dirt when travelling on a mucky EMR train at some point

 

[Merle Haggard]

It was 180110 that had the 5th car returned to service and, as you can see in the attached pic (still-shot from a video of it leaving Leicester), the repaired coach is gleaming.

But yes, I’m sure one of us can write a witty message in the dirt when travelling on a mucky EMR train at some point

Thanks - and relying too much on memory instead of checking...

It would be interesting to see a photo of 180110 with Grand Central to see if the 5th car still stands out, now that the other 4 have (presumably) had a wash.

 

[DannyMich2018]

One of today's early services terminated at Luton. Reason given, "Fault on train". I was on one yesterday and we were told to board only the first four coaches due to air con failure. Seems like the hot weather over the last week has really taken its toll

We had a trip on Saturday from Kettering to Luton. Our outward journey was 8 car (360119 and 121), the guard advised that there was no toilet facilities available in the unit we were on. He didn't say anything about the toilet in the other set which you could swap to when at a station.also there were many cancellations including 2 consecutive northbound services and the last Corby through service

 

[Busman]

This may have already been addressed but I can't find the exact question to match the answer I am looking for but I'm assuming EMR are not re-upholstering their seats with their own branded ones? They seem to be happily using the old GA seating moquette on their recent Luton Airport Express TV adverts.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This may have already been addressed but I can't find the exact question to match the answer I am looking for but I'm assuming EMR are not re-upholstering their seats with their own branded ones? They seem to be happily using the old GA seating moquette on their recent Luton Airport Express TV adverts.

What even are “their own branded ones?” In the four years of their franchise not one of their seats, be they in Stagecoach EMT flat cloth/leather, Southern, Greater Anglia, early First ScotRail, LNER, London Midland, Anglia Railways, Hull Trains or Stagecoach EMT moquette - yes, that is a lot of different interiors across a four year franchise, you’re right - has been reupholstered into their own colours and branding.

 

[Busman]

What even are “their own branded ones?” In the four years of their franchise not one of their seats, be they in Stagecoach EMT flat cloth/leather, Southern, Greater Anglia, early First ScotRail, LNER, London Midland, Anglia Railways, Hull Trains or Stagecoach EMT moquette - yes, that is a lot of different interiors across a four year franchise, you’re right - has been reupholstered into their own colours and branding.

Well the train may not turn up on time but you can at least be surprised at what interior you'll get.

I know they're not in charge anymore but seeing as Abellio got to grips with the GA franchise fairly quickly, doing up a few of their 321s in the interim, ordering a brand new fleet across the board and getting them into service with relative ease (unlike the shambles at SWR), I'm surprised they've let this one slip.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well the train may not turn up on time but you can at least be surprised at what interior you'll get.

I know they're not in charge anymore but seeing as Abellio got to grips with the GA franchise fairly quickly, doing up a few of their 321s in the interim, ordering a brand new fleet across the board and getting them into service with relative ease (unlike the shambles at SWR), I'm surprised they've let this one slip.

Greater Anglia is now a beautifully simple, homogeneous fleet - one consistent, brand new product - which you get depending on whether you’re on Regional or London routes - plus a “premium” product (I don’t see them that way myself but there we go) for the two flagships. Consistency.

 

[QSK19]

I know they're not in charge anymore but seeing as Abellio got to grips with the GA franchise fairly quickly, doing up a few of their 321s in the interim, ordering a brand new fleet across the board and getting them into service with relative ease (unlike the shambles at SWR), I'm surprised they've let this one slip.

Probably because they didn’t really care - they were the only bidders left in the running and the DfT didn’t really seem to push them. No incentive to do anything with EMR. That’s certainly how I feel as somebody in EMR land when I see the poor state of their fleet anyway.

 

[z4ck]

It would be interesting to see a photo of 180110 with Grand Central to see if the 5th car still stands out, now that the other 4 have (presumably) had a wash.

Still stands out (just)

 

[STINT47]

Looking on EMR website it does say that tge 360s are due to get a full refurbishment as swiftly as possible. Hopefully this means things are finally in motion.

"We had hoped to refurbish a number of these trains before they entered service. However, as a result of delays caused by the Coronavirus pandemic, that has unfortunately not been possible. We are fully committed to refurbish these trains as swiftly as possible and will share more information on this programme soon."

 

[QSK19]

Still stands out (just)

And one can still ever so slightly see the EMR lettering

Looking on EMR website it does say that tge 360s are due to get a full refurbishment as swiftly as possible. Hopefully this means things are finally in motion.

"We had hoped to refurbish a number of these trains before they entered service. However, as a result of delays caused by the Coronavirus pandemic, that has unfortunately not been possible. We are fully committed to refurbish these trains as swiftly as possible and will share more information on this programme soon."

Doesn’t mean anything - it’s wording that has been around for ages and sounds like a poor excuse for continuously kicking the can down the road.

Amazing how non-existent Covid restrictions are still delaying the refurbishments - more likely the DfT won’t get its wallet out to spend money on a very pressing issue.

 

[Mikey C]

Looking on EMR website it does say that tge 360s are due to get a full refurbishment as swiftly as possible. Hopefully this means things are finally in motion.

"We had hoped to refurbish a number of these trains before they entered service. However, as a result of delays caused by the Coronavirus pandemic, that has unfortunately not been possible. We are fully committed to refurbish these trains as swiftly as possible and will share more information on this programme soon."

The East Midlands clearly was more affected by the pandemic than the rest of the country, where other operators have been carrying out refurbishment programmes...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looking on EMR website it does say that tge 360s are due to get a full refurbishment as swiftly as possible. Hopefully this means things are finally in motion.

"We had hoped to refurbish a number of these trains before they entered service. However, as a result of delays caused by the Coronavirus pandemic, that has unfortunately not been possible. We are fully committed to refurbish these trains as swiftly as possible and will share more information on this programme soon."

Everyone's favourite excuse, not heard that for a while.

 

[Edvid]

Latest developments in Modern Railways (Etches Park gets fit for the future, 24 August 2023):

For the ‘360s’, availability has not been good as EMR would like but will continue to improve as upgrade works at Bedford Cauldwell depot are completed. This will increase the scope of work which can be carried out here, although units will still need to move to maintainer Siemens’ Kings Heath facility at Northampton from time to time. Work continues to finalise the scope of an interior refurbishment of the ‘360’ fleet – agreeing a funded scope has been challenging, but it is hoped this will be achieved soon, concurrent with an extension of the lease with Angel Trains to 2030.

Much as it may, quite understandably, feel otherwise - it has been 28 months since the Corby services turned electric - 360 refurbishment is still a franchise commitment. Otherwise it wouldn't feature in the revised EMR rail contract quoted in post #3032 (no details on specs or timescales; max cost limit redacted).

With respect to 2030 being suggested as the new lease expiry date, that's only 3 additional years. Far fewer than the 10/12 implied previously.

 

[QSK19]

360 refurbishment is still a franchise commitment. Otherwise it wouldn't feature in the revised EMR rail contract quoted in post #3032 (no details on specs or timescales; max cost limit redacted).

To be honest, in the post-Covid railway world, the DfT can practically do what it wants seeing as it’s their wallet covering the bill. The way I see it is that any commitments are worthless until we actually see them in the flesh (eg I won’t believe the 360s are definitely being refurbished until I actually see the refurbishment commence or, at the very least, a watertight contract has been signed which doesn’t allow the DfT to pull out unless it pays an extremely punitive penalty).

Another franchise commitment (albeit from when EMR took over in 2019) was trialling hydrogen trains on the MML and that hasn’t come to fruition - absolutely no traction on this at all thus far (excuse the pun!).

 

[Mikey C]

Another franchise commitment (albeit from when EMR took over in 2019) was trialling hydrogen trains on the MML and that hasn’t come to fruition - absolutely no traction on this at all thus far (excuse the pun!).

Was that before electrification of the MML was approved (yet) again though?

 

[spotify95]

ANOTHER short formed EMR Connect service today, with the 07.13 from Wellingborough being a 4 car.
How the hell do EMR not have 12/21 fully working units?!
Methinks they should have gone for a more reliable fleet. Its the Class 180s all over again!

 

[Merle Haggard]

ANOTHER short formed EMR Connect service today, with the 07.13 from Wellingborough being a 4 car.
How the hell do EMR not have 12/21 fully working units?!
Methinks they should have gone for a more reliable fleet. Its the Class 180s all over again!

Look on the bright side! If the management had managed to refurbish them and fit 2+2 seating there would be 89 * less seats. Bonus! They're thinking of us, more seats on the Airport Express!!

*approximate figure.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I've not looked at this thread for months and indeed my last adventure onto the mml was back in February and so I suppose I kind of thought that we'd be seeing refurbishment progress by now, the fact that we're not is quite frankly and embarrassment and yet another great advert for the car or coach

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've not looked at this thread for months and indeed my last adventure onto the mml was back in February and so I suppose I kind of thought that we'd be seeing refurbishment progress by now, the fact that we're not is quite frankly an embarrassment and yet another great advert for the car or coach

EMR all over.

 

[D7666]

I still predict this - 360/1s won't get refurbished - but will EMR get 350/2s - and get rid of the 360/1s

I have always predicted that (hopefully appropriately) refurbished 350/2 will take over once it was clear they are to go from LNW&Co, and for that reason no-one is wasting money on the 360/1s. But no-one is in a position to say that right now, and certainly no-one in EMR is going to give negative news like "we are not ....." without positive news to balance. So all are silent.

When the 360/1s were planned to be deleted from GA by 720s etc, then later announced move to EMR, it was not at those points in time known the 350/2 would be released by 730s. But in any case, there had to be something for Corby well before 350/2 could be released, so while it was not planned to work like this, I think 360/1s are now only a stop gap.

350/2 are through gangwayed which resolves a couple of issues. And they still have no known future by anything certain in the public domain.

Further, a more recent development is extending MML OLE, to Wigston at least, and the next stage is /possibly/ into Leicester (yes I am aware of the infrastructure difficulties, let's not go into that here) and further.

In which case you need more than 21 sets if EMR Connect takes this in on MML north of Kettering. 350/2 fleet is more than enough to do this.

Just my personal view and suggestion .... and prediction. I may be wrong. Wait and see what pans out once 350/2 start to be stood down. Which is not that actually far away even if they do have to follow 319s and 323s exit first.


PS

And be careful what you wish for. I'll predict that whatever refurblement does take place, 360/1, 350/2, or anything else, if it involves replacing 2+3 seats by 2+2, you'll get packed in airline type hard seats per 387s 700s etc.

 

[Maddog83]

Last I heard, referb will be going ahead and it will remain 3+2 as that's what feedback from passangers has been? To what extent internally who knows, carpets, repaint & info screens. 360s north of Kettering will almost certainly never happen.