EMR Extensions

[HST43257]

Ok, so this all came from me thinking “some extensions arriving into London around 0900 would be great”.

But then I thought, does this really put somewhere like Barnsley on the intercity map? So I wonder if some off peak revenue could be generated with a changed 2nd fast path between Leeds and Sheffield via Barnsley, rather and cramming an extra service through Nunnery.

Now, it may well be the case that the other suggestions below are complete idiocy, but I reckon a 2tpd thing for the Baghill route could be decent. 0600 leaving and into London for 0900, then maybe another 2 hours later? Basically, I’m not sure if such extensions should be 1-2tpd or throughout the day.

I may be completely stupid suggesting these things, but I’m interested to hear thoughts and/or other proposals.

Here’s my idea in full:

• 1tph from Leeds calling at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

This is replacing the Leeds to Lincoln path (I have separate plans for the Sheffield to Gainsborough route), and adding frequent London services for Barnsley. Swap this to the other half hour leaving Leeds so it connects nicely with the xx37 express (having arrived at xx34).

• 1tp2h from York calling at Church Fenton, Sherburn-in-Elmet, Pontefract Baghill, Moorthorpe, Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

This is replacing, and enhancing, the service through Baghill, whilst giving places like Sherburn (which both feel semi isolated in my experience) wider links. The path would have to be changed to connect with the xx00 off SHF (semi fast to London).

• 1tp2h from Doncaster calling at Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

It’s basically to give Rotherham an hourly service. I did look at sending this to Bradford via Fitzwilliam and Wakefield Kirkgate, but saw no real merit in this.

 

[Ianno87]

But then I thought, does this really put somewhere like Barnsley on the intercity map? So I wonder if some off peak revenue could be generated with a changed 2nd fast path between Leeds and Sheffield via Barnsley, rather and cramming an extra service through Nunnery.

Going via Barnsley still involves going via Nunnery.

 

[A0wen]

Ok, so this all came from me thinking “some extensions arriving into London around 0900 would be great”.

But then I thought, does this really put somewhere like Barnsley on the intercity map? So I wonder if some off peak revenue could be generated with a changed 2nd fast path between Leeds and Sheffield via Barnsley, rather and cramming an extra service through Nunnery.

Now, it may well be the case that the other suggestions below are complete idiocy, but I reckon a 2tpd thing for the Baghill route could be decent. 0600 leaving and into London for 0900, then maybe another 2 hours later? Basically, I’m not sure if such extensions should be 1-2tpd or throughout the day.

I may be completely stupid suggesting these things, but I’m interested to hear thoughts and/or other proposals.

Here’s my idea in full:

• 1tph from Leeds calling at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

This is replacing the Leeds to Lincoln path (I have separate plans for the Sheffield to Gainsborough route), and adding frequent London services for Barnsley. Swap this to the other half hour leaving Leeds so it connects nicely with the xx37 express (having arrived at xx34).

• 1tp2h from York calling at Church Fenton, Sherburn-in-Elmet, Pontefract Baghill, Moorthorpe, Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

This is replacing, and enhancing, the service through Baghill, whilst giving places like Sherburn (which both feel semi isolated in my experience) wider links. The path would have to be changed to connect with the xx00 off SHF (semi fast to London).

• 1tp2h from Doncaster calling at Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

It’s basically to give Rotherham an hourly service. I did look at sending this to Bradford via Fitzwilliam and Wakefield Kirkgate, but saw no real merit in this.

Weren't similar things tried in Midland Mainline days with little success?

Does Rotherham *really* justify an hourly EMR service to London?

 

[JonathanH]

Weren't similar things tried in Midland Mainline days with little success?

Does Rotherham *really* justify an hourly EMR service to London?

More to the point, is it a good use of the 125mph 810 fleet to use them between Sheffield and local stations further north or to have a connection using more appropriate rolling stock?

 

[Iskra]

I don't think any of these places have a big enough catchment and population to justify a London service. Barnsley to London involves just one change at Sheffield which isn't particularly hard.

Where are you putting these trains at Leeds too?

 

[Aictos]

With the Leeds services, I'm sure it's actually faster to Kings Cross then it is to St Pancras plus at the moment, the EMR services are peak only whereas the LNER services I believe are 2tph?

It's not much of a hardship for Leeds and Wakefield passengers to travel to Kings Cross as it's right next door to St Pancras.

Therefore with respect to the EMR Leeds services, they should retain the existing peak services and not consider a all day 1tph service using resources that could be better used elsewhere.

 

[HST43257]

I don't think any of these places have a big enough catchment and population to justify a London service. Barnsley to London involves just one change at Sheffield which isn't particularly hard.

Changing isn’t popular. A journey on the M1 is

Where are you putting these trains at Leeds too?

They could stable at Leeds

Going via Barnsley still involves going via Nunnery.

Yes, but my point is that they use the old Leeds to Lincoln path, instead of an extra one.

 

[Ianno87]

Changing isn’t popular. A journey on the M1 is

Neither is the journey on the M1 when there isn't much demand in the first place. How many people are routinely driving Barnsley to London as a direct consequence of needing to change trains?

(I suspect Barnsley-ites will more likely drive to Doncaster if London-bound)

 

[Bigman]

You have got a massive car park and transport interchange at Meadowhall. Surely that would justify a London service...and Cross Country destinations for that matter.

 

[Ianno87]

You have got a massive car park and transport interchange at Meadowhall. Surely that would justify a London service...and Cross Country destinations for that matter.

You wouldn't stop XC as it would get even more swamped with local passengers than it already is.

 

[Iskra]

Changing isn’t popular. A journey on the M1 is


They could stable at Leeds


Yes, but my point is that they use the old Leeds to Lincoln path, instead of an extra one.

It’s barely an inconvenience is it. And anyone hitting the M1 can simply park for free at Meadowhall and get a frequent and fast service into Sheffield for a London train. It’s still way easier than driving to London.

Direct Barnsley trains did nothing for MML, who presumably dropped them for a reason.

Where are you stabling 5 car units at Leeds when we can’t currently accommodate more than 4 carriage worths of Sprinters at Leeds, which require less effort and dwell to turn around than IC stock.

 

[YorksLad12]

Weren't similar things tried in Midland Mainline days with little success?

Does Rotherham *really* justify an hourly EMR service to London?

More to the point, how are we/he/they going to squeeze in additional services via Rotherham Central? It was difficult adding in the tram-traim services. More likely to take the Masborough route and not stop.

 

[A0wen]

You have got a massive car park and transport interchange at Meadowhall. Surely that would justify a London service...and Cross Country destinations for that matter.

Which has been open since 1990 and its usage figures have dropped from 2.1m in 2015/16 to 1.8m in 2019/20.

If that demand were there, then there has been plenty of time to put that kind of service on. That it hasn't been done suggests the demand isn't there.

 

[D365]

More to the point, how are we/he/they going to squeeze in additional services via Rotherham Central? It was difficult adding in the tram-traim services. More likely to take the Masborough route and not stop.

Reopening of Masborough station!

 

[Barnsley]

Neither is the journey on the M1 when there isn't much demand in the first place. How many people are routinely driving Barnsley to London as a direct consequence of needing to change trains?

(I suspect Barnsley-ites will more likely drive to Doncaster if London-bound)

Hit the nail on the head!

Anyone from Barnsley who is going to London goes from Doncaster, even for non-drivers, there is the excellent X19 bus every 30 minutes which takes around 40 minutes, the Midland Mainline experiment was a 2-car 170, which stopped everywhere after Sheffield, taking just under 4 hours! No wonder nobody used it!

 

[johnnychips]

Reopening of Masborough station!

I trust the exclamation mark means this is not serious! Calls for reopening of Masborough really are in the category of ‘there was a station here before so let’s use it again’. It really is in a grotty, semi-derelict area of Rotherham, inconvenient for the centre and I wouldn’t leave my car there. As others have suggested, the best way to get from Rotherham to London is via Doncaster, either by train or parking there. As a caveat, I would not be sure if there would be a big fares difference, or if it is a valid route from Rotherham Central to London via Doncaster.

 

[Ianno87]

I trust the exclamation mark means this is not serious! Calls for reopening of Masborough really are in the category of ‘there was a station here before so let’s use it again’. It really is in a grotty, semi-derelict area of Rotherham, inconvenient for the centre and I wouldn’t leave my car there. As others have suggested, the best way to get from Rotherham to London is via Doncaster, either by train or parking there. As a caveat, I would not be sure if there would be a big fares difference, or if it is a valid route from Rotherham Central to London via Doncaster.

There is reasonably serious consideration being given to reinstating a main line station at Rotherham - presumably as a catalyst for regeneration of the "grotty" area:

News: New mainline Rotherham station put forward to Government

www.rothbiz.co.uk

Hopes for a new mainline station in Rotherham have been given a boost with it being put forward to the Government as part of plans to improve connectivity between northern cities as well as between London, the Midlands and the north.

The Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and the north is framed by the Government's commitment to bring forward transformational rail improvements along the HS2 route as quickly as possible.

The Sheffield city region (SCR) has been asked for its input, and having already put together its own Integrated Rail Plan, the mayoral combined authority (MCA) has put forward a number of high profile schemes and projects where it believes the Government should intervene.


Interventions include things like the HS2 "Northern Loop" out of Sheffield to Leeds, completing the electrification of the Midland Mainline and a national rail connection to Doncaster Sheffield Airport.


It also includes: "A new [Northern Powerhouse Rail] NPR station on the Midland Mainline at Rotherham which will significantly enhance regional and national rail connectivity for Rotherham and open up development opportunities. This should be integrated with the tram-train network to connect to the town centre."

A 2018 study concluded that new stations in Rotherham and in the Dearne Valley (Goldthorpe) on a proposed NPR line could boost the economic benefits from HS2.


A new mainline station for Rotherham and a Barnsley Dearne Valley parkway station are set to be progressed through NPR and not HS2. A location for the Rotherham station has not yet been confirmed.

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Rotherham has not benefited from intercity rail connectivity since the late 1980s when the station at Masbrough was closed. Currently, local connections to Sheffield and Doncaster are available with an hourly, hour long service to Leeds.

A paper to the SCR MCA states: "There is the opportunity through NPR to transform the connectivity of Rotherham and the Dearne Valley. New mainline stations at Rotherham and Barnsley Dearne Valley would transform their strategic connectivity, reconnecting Rotherham to the intercity rail network and achieving a step-change in accessibility to the labour markets of Leeds and Sheffield as well as the national network. By doing so they can also provide a catalyst for accelerated regeneration and housing growth in the surrounding areas.


Initial analysis by TfN shows how the Barnsley Dearne Valley and Rotherham stations can grow the rail market in South Yorkshire with around 3,500 additional passengers per day at Barnsley Dearne Valley. This will reduce the need for cars to travel into towns and cities and encourage sustainable travel, with approximately 1,000 fewer car trips per day."

Aspirations are for two trains per hour between Doncaster and Sheffield, serving Rotherham, two trains per hour between Sheffield and Leeds, serving Rotherham, and for one train per hour between Rotherham and London.

The paper also confirms that Transport for the North (TfN), which brings together representatives from across the North, is also proposing a new NPR station on the main line at Rotherham. It adds: "This station will allow NPR trains between Sheffield and Leeds and Hull to stop there and will significantly enhance regional rail connectivity for Rotherham, enabling residents and businesses to capitalise on the benefits generated from NPR services. The Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes NPR service could also stop at the proposed station."


Another Rotherham scheme put forward is a permanent tram-train service between Sheffield and Rotherham, extending the network to Doncaster and Doncaster Sheffield Airport, via Swinton in Rotherham. This is seen as critical to releasing capacity for HS2 and NPR services.

Dan Jarvis, mayor of the Sheffield city region, said: "Our city region sits on the boundary between the North and the Midlands and also at a key juncture between HS2 and NPR. We therefore want to ensure we secure a more integrated approach to the design and delivery of these two major rail projects as well as services linking the North and Midlands."

On the interventions, he adds: "Completion of this package of improvements would deliver a HS2 and NPR-ready section of the network within the next ten years."

 

[tbtc]

I'm not convinced about the "X town needs direct links to London" arguments - I don't know that direct London trains have made a huge difference to places like Hartlepool or Wrexham so doubt there'd be much of a transformation in Barnsley/ Rotherham/ Sherburn-in-Elmet

But we could do with better longer distance links for some places - there's a few big places that aren't on main lines or that are only getting services to a limited number of places.

You have got a massive car park and transport interchange at Meadowhall. Surely that would justify a London service...and Cross Country destinations for that matter.

Meadowhall has a lot of things going for it, in terms of being a junction with a large shopping centre, adjacent coach station, some longer distance bus services too, lots of parking... it'd have been a great location for an HS2 station.

However, it can't accommodate long trains (I think that the four platforms are marginally over one hundred metres, so four coaches is about your limit)

If it could take XC the that'd be great - if it could take longer trains then I'd suggest combining the half hourly St Pancras - Sheffield services with the half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds services to provide additional capacity north of Sheffield and also better links from the East Midlands to West Yorkshire.

But that'd mean platform extensions so is probably unlikely.

Meadowhall Shopping Centre opened in 1990 so the station was designed/ constructed in the 1980s when passenger numbers were a lot lower - if you were designing it from scratch you might have one hundred and fifty/ two hundred metre platforms, you'd have potential for long distance services to overtake stoppers, you'd maybe even have a turn back facility. You might even have provided provision for the Supertram (which opened in 1994) to get there via a much more direct route west of the shopping centre, rather than slowly skirting round the eastern side). But it was built back in BR days and we are stuck with those constraints.

It really is in a grotty, semi-derelict area of Rotherham, inconvenient for the centre and I wouldn’t leave my car there

I agree it's not exactly one of the posher parts of Rotherham.

But there's a trade off. Does Rotherham want to be on the main line or have a town centre station? Would you swap the current Central station for a Masborough that meant XC and TPE stopping there? (I'm not guaranteeing that XC/ TPE would stop - I'm not saying that they have space in their timetable to do so or that they have capacity on their trains to accommodate Rotherham passengers - but I can't see Rotherham getting any additional services if it sticks with the current station)

On a similar idea - I'd rather that Sheffield had an HS2 station on the main line at Meadowhall (with frequent services) rather than having HS2 service run into the city centre (but only one per hour to London) - there's a trade off - but if the people of Rotherham are happier with the status quo then fair enough - but I don't think you can have "town centre station" and "increased services/ London services"

I can't see it having heavy rail services at *both* (maybe you'd have an increased TramTrain service at Central if the heavy rail services moved to Masborough)

 

[johnnychips]

Thanks @Ianno87 and @tbtc A lot of the above stuff really belongs in this Speculative thread, and it does not seem well thought out. I am sure current users of the Doncaster-Sheffield stopper would be delighted by a 25 minute journey from Rotherham Central to Sheffield, stopping at every tram stop. It also implies electrification between Parkgate and Doncaster, which is certainly not high on the list. However, I do realise we might be going off-topic so I will open another thread soon.

Edit: here is the thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-to-improve-services-in-the-rotherham-and-dearne-valley-area.216839/

 

[YorksLad12]

Slightly off topic, but: I think that Rotherham Main Line would be roughly where Parkgate and Rawmarsh station was, to mainly serve the Shopping Centre. The trouble is, everything else runs via Central, including tram train. Ideally you'd want your extensions running via the station that gets you closest to onward connections - Central, being across the road and over the bridge from the bus interchange. That being so you'd have to redirect tram train to the new station to free up paths, which would be pricey.