EMR intercity service pre-Corby-electrification

[miklcct]

Nearly all EMR intercity services no longer stop at Luton Airport Parkway, Luton and Bedford since the electric EMR Connect entered service. As a result, long-distance journeys now require a change at Kettering from Nottingham, or two changes (Leicester and Kettering) from Sheffield to access Bedford or Luton.

In the past, before electrification, how did the Sheffield and Nottingham intercity services operate? Was there only 1 train per hour for Corby? How many EMR trains per hour called at Luton Airport Parkway, Luton and Bedford?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Having had a fairly close association with the Midland Main Line over the past 50 years, including commuting on it for around 20 of them, there is no 'before and after' answer to the question.

Services have evolved continuously reflecting changes in traction and rolling stock; demand; new stations - Luton Airport, East Midlands and Corby; operational changes - Down Fast platform at Bedford, tripling/quadrupling the Sharnbrook-Glendon section, re-modelling Nottingham and Derby, Market Harborough re-alignment; changes on Thameslink; etc.

As much as anything, changes have been made to try and balance loadings across all services (that have varied between 2-car Class 170 Turbostars to 12-car Class 700s!).

Someone could write a book on the subject and still leave some things out.

There has been lengthy discussion of the wisdom or otherwise of various stopping patterns across 'East Midlands' and 'Thameslink' on numerous threads over the years.

Sorry.

 

[tbtc]

I guess, to be simplistic, you could split it into four eras:

1. BR days until a couple of years into privatisation: HSTs providing everything north of Bedford (had been Peaks until ECML electrification etc freed up a few HSTs). Service from London to Nottingham/ Sheffield only every ninety minutes each, although I’ve seen people say that there were Leicester “shorts” to give a thirty minute service that far (I don’t remember those services, but then I’ve not lived South off a Sheffield so in guess they’d not have been on my radar). Services improved to hourly to both Nottingham and Sheffield by privatisation. Stopping patterns South of Leicester were pretty erratic, think of the ECML north of Newcastle where Morpeth/ Alnmouth/ Berwick/ Dunbar all have a reasonable drive to the big cities but you might struggle to get a train from (e.g.) Alnmouth to Berwick because most only few trains make multiple stops in between Newcastle and Edinburgh

2. National Express era: Two coach 170s introduced to provide an hourly service from London to each of Derby and Nottingham (with a token extension to Burton/ Matlock/ Barnsley). These Turbostars had a ten minute dwell at Leicester so that passengers could swap with the HST on the “adjacent” platform, to give a faster journey from Beeston/ Long Eaton to London, or from Sheffield/ Nottingham to Bedford/ Luton. The 170s picked up all stops South of Leicester, allowing HSTs to generally run non stop, speeding them up. I think that the 170s stopped at everywhere from Leicester to Bedford, with one stopping in central Luton whilst the other stopped at the Airport? Despite a two coach DMU that took two hours or more to get from London to Derby/ Nottingham not seeming very appealing by today’s standards (I say two hours , these trains stopped pretty much everywhere and had the long dwells at Leicester), they clearly demonstrated untapped demand on the neglected MML (which had always played second fiddle to the ECML/ WCML) and were extended to three coaches. Soon, this wasn’t enough so National Express ordered four coach DMUs to replace them, adding on some nine coach versions to turn order for a speculative hourly London - Leeds service. If the SRA (or whoever was nominally in charge on those days) has approved this, XC’s struggles to cope with demand from the midlands to Leeds would have been massively aided, maybe there’d have been some fare competition with GNER etc for London to Leeds fares, who knows.., one of those “what if” moments

3: New trains, new platforms, new operator, new route: a bit of a busy period as the 222s were delivered in 2004, London services were squeezed into the cramped platforms in the far north west of the station in 2006 to accommodate Eurostar in the main “shed”, Stagecoach replaced National Express in 2007, Corby was opened in 2009, the 222 fleet was rejigged quite a bit to balance out the “short” and “long” trains, the Hull Trains 222s were taken by EMT, it was a bit of a blur, the Long distance high speed fleet was now four/ five/ seven coach 222s plus some HSTs (as the St Pancras route has inherited HSTs from fleet upgrades on the ECML and later Operation Princess on XC, now they were able to use the 222 fleet to show some HSTs to go to GWML who needed additional diesel capacity). Both Sheffield services were generally 222s that ran non stop south of Leicester, both Nottingham trains stopped at Market Harbourough with the Nottingham “HST” path running non stop South of there and the “short 222” from Nottingham providing a roughly half hourly service at Bedford etc when combined with the new hourly Corby service. Corby was a mixed blessing for EMT, it allowed some other services to be speeded up but created a lopsided timetable and additional pressure at a cramped St Pancras

4. Now: the half hourly Corby EMUs allowed the slower Nottingham service to be speeded up, but the faster Nottingham train additionally stops at Kettering (for Corby connections).

So there’s never really been a clockface HST service from Luton/ Bedford to Nottingham/ Sheffield, the clockface pattern south of Leicester only really came about with the 170s, until the Turbostars came along the number of stops and distribution of stops was fairly random - the MML has always struggled to accommodate passengers at the stations between Bedford and Leicester, given the lack of Network South East (which ran to Northampton/ Leicester etc but didn’t provide a “local” service as far out of London when it came to the MML), just as it struggled with modern rolling stock (In BR days) and journey times (faster to get from London to York/ Leeds than to Sheffield). Slowing down long distance trains to try to tap into the Wellingborough - Sheffield market has never been much of a priority

 

[nw1]

My one and only use of the MML was in early 2016.

At that time, there was a 5tph service comprising two Sheffields (both fairly fast), one fast Nottingham (fast to Market Harborough I think), one slow Nottingham and one Corby. The slow Nottingham and the Corby provided the Wellingborough/Kettering stops, I think. The departure times out of St Pancras weren't perfectly even (2tph routes had trains roughly every 30 mins, but not exactly, if I remember right) and many of them were at somewhat "random" times such as xx26 (possibly) for the fast Sheffield and xx01 (possibly) for the Corby.

I remember using a non-stop Meridian from London to Leicester on a Saturday, and returned on a non-stop HST ex-Nottingham on the Sunday.

The fast Nottingham was HSTs, and the others Meridians of varying lengths (I think). There was also the odd HST to Corby.

Further back, I remember (from looking at timetables) a long-standing pattern of two fasts (to Leicester) and two "slows" per hour out of St Pancras, the former alternating Sheffield-Nottingham and the latter (leaving St Pancras 5 mins later) alternating Derby-Nottingham. Former was HSTs and latter was 170s, I think.

 

[RT4038]

Prior to any electrification, I think from St Pancras there were one fast and one slow (St Albans, Luton, Bedford then all stations) train to Leicester per hour, connecting with each other at Leicester and then alternately going to Derby and Sheffield or Nottingham. Some extras in the peak and a few other exceptions. Local trains ran hourly all stations to Luton, and hourly fast to Elstree then all stations to Bedford. Considerable Mo-Fr peak hour boosting too.

 

[Magdalia]

Prior to any electrification, I think from St Pancras there were one fast and one slow (St Albans, Luton, Bedford then all stations) train to Leicester per hour, connecting with each other at Leicester and then alternately going to Derby and Sheffield or Nottingham.

In the early 1970s the hourly fasts went to Sheffield, alternately via Derby and Nottingham, with the hourly slow that was overtaken at Leicester going to Derby or Nottingham as appropriate. That lasted until 1977, when the overtaking moves at Leicester ceased; south of Leicester the Nottingham trains were accelerated only calling at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. When the Bedpan electric trains and the MML HSTs started most of the remaining St Albans and Luton stops were wiped out. The hourly pattern was lost in 1986 cutbacks.

 

[miklcct]

In the early 1970s the hourly fasts went to Sheffield, alternately via Derby and Nottingham, with the hourly slow that was overtaken at Leicester going to Derby or Nottingham as appropriate. That lasted until 1977, when the overtaking moves at Leicester ceased; south of Leicester the Nottingham trains were accelerated only calling at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. When the Bedpan electric trains and the MML HSTs started most of the remaining St Albans and Luton stops were wiped out. The hourly pattern was lost in 1986 cutbacks.

Now it takes 4 changes to get from Kentish Town / Cricklewood / Hendon to Derby if we always take a train in the right direction, i.e. at St Albans to change for a fast Thameslink train as far as Bedford, then Luton Airport Parkway for an EMR Connect train as far as Kettering, then Kettering for the Nottingham train, and finally Leicester for the Sheffield train which ran non-stop from London.

If the same journey could be done with 1 change at St Albans in the past it is a massive service deterioration for non-London journeys on the line.

So when was the Bedford call gone on the intercity trains, especially those for Sheffield? How much traffic has lost to the M1 motorway as a result?

 

[nw1]

3: New trains, new platforms, new operator, new route: a bit of a busy period as the 222s were delivered in 2004, London services were squeezed into the cramped platforms in the far north west of the station in 2006 to accommodate Eurostar in the main “shed”, Stagecoach replaced National Express in 2007, Corby was opened in 2009, the 222 fleet was rejigged quite a bit to balance out the “short” and “long” trains, the Hull Trains 222s were taken by EMT, it was a bit of a blur,

Looks like this period had at least two eras, pre- and post-Corby. I have the full 2008 timetable (pre-Corby): this was Stagecoach but the pattern was similar to the early years of privatisation, minus the looping at Leicester. Still only 1tph to Sheffield, two to Nottingham but leaving 5 mins apart from St Pancras. You could no longer reach Nottingham by getting the Sheffield to Leicester and changing there. Fasts at xx25, xx55 and "slows" at xx00 and xx30. I presume it was purely HSTs and Meridians by then, with no 170s?

I remember the timetable became a good deal less "neat" when Corby opened. Did this also co-incide with 2tph to Sheffield?

 

[43074]

I guess, to be simplistic, you could split it into four eras:

1. BR days until a couple of years into privatisation: HSTs providing everything north of Bedford (had been Peaks until ECML electrification etc freed up a few HSTs). Service from London to Nottingham/ Sheffield only every ninety minutes each, although I’ve seen people say that there were Leicester “shorts” to give a thirty minute service that far (I don’t remember those services, but then I’ve not lived South off a Sheffield so in guess they’d not have been on my radar). Services improved to hourly to both Nottingham and Sheffield by privatisation. Stopping patterns South of Leicester were pretty erratic, think of the ECML north of Newcastle where Morpeth/ Alnmouth/ Berwick/ Dunbar all have a reasonable drive to the big cities but you might struggle to get a train from (e.g.) Alnmouth to Berwick because most only few trains make multiple stops in between Newcastle and Edinburgh

The Leicester 'shorts' started in May 1988, by 1990 though Intercity allocated an additional HST to the MML and that allowed an hourly Nottingham/Sheffield service to start. Was still only every 45 minutes to Leicester and every 90 to Nottingham & Sheffield on Saturdays though.

If the SRA (or whoever was nominally in charge on those days) has approved this, XC’s struggles to cope with demand from the midlands to Leeds would have been massively aided, maybe there’d have been some fare competition with GNER etc for London to Leeds fares, who knows.., one of those “what if” moments

Yes I remember the dithering over those, plus all sorts of speculation about the future of the 9-car 222s with which the forum membership would've had a field day!

So there’s never really been a clockface HST service from Luton/ Bedford to Nottingham/ Sheffield, the clockface pattern south of Leicester only really came about with the 170s, until the Turbostars came along the number of stops and distribution of stops was fairly random - the MML has always struggled to accommodate passengers at the stations between Bedford and Leicester, given the lack of Network South East (which ran to Northampton/ Leicester etc but didn’t provide a “local” service as far out of London when it came to the MML), just as it struggled with modern rolling stock (In BR days) and journey times (faster to get from London to York/ Leeds than to Sheffield). Slowing down long distance trains to try to tap into the Wellingborough - Sheffield market has never been much of a priority

There were a few NSE services between Kettering/Wellingborough & Bedford when Corby opened the first time around but nothing like a clockface basis. They also had fast 319s calling Bedford, Luton, King's Cross Thameslink, Farringdon, City Thameslink and stations to Streatham of all places from the mid 1990s. So there was enough of an NSE presence that the HSTs didn't have to do everything (albeit the Northants services were only short lived until Corby closed about a year later), but equally the current EMR Connect timetable is the best provision in the NSE area for want of a better description it's ever been.

Looks like this period had at least two eras, pre- and post-Corby. I have the full 2008 timetable: this was Stagecoach but the pattern was similar to the early years of privatisation, minus the looping at Leicester. Still only 1tph to Sheffield, two to Nottingham but leaving 5 mins apart from St Pancras. Fasts at xx25, xx55 and "slows" at xx00 and xx30. I presume it was purely HSTs and Meridians by then, with no 170s?

You could also have pre and post May 2018, as that's when the Thameslink recast happened but with only 1tph to Corby still, which didn't help the balance of the timetable much but flipped the paths in/out of St Pancras with some winners and some losers. 2tph to Sheffield started in December 2009 after the Hull Trains 222s had joined the fleet.

 

[nw1]

In the early 1970s the hourly fasts went to Sheffield, alternately via Derby and Nottingham, with the hourly slow that was overtaken at Leicester going to Derby or Nottingham as appropriate. That lasted until 1977, when the overtaking moves at Leicester ceased; south of Leicester the Nottingham trains were accelerated only calling at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. When the Bedpan electric trains and the MML HSTs started most of the remaining St Albans and Luton stops were wiped out. The hourly pattern was lost in 1986 cutbacks.

Can also add something about 1982, as the timetable is on Timetable World. This would have been immediately before electrification.

This sounds similar, with an xx00 to Sheffield (fast to Leicester, via Nottingham every 2 hours) and xx10 to Nottingham or Derby (Luton, then principal stations, however Market Harborough only got stops on alternate services). The clockface pattern only applied from 1100/1110 to 1500/1510, however (e.g. there was no 1010, but a 1006, and before that the previous "slow" was 0828).

Interesting that both Sheffield and Nottingham went down to every 90 mins later in the 80s; sounds like a very poor service indeed for such relatively large cities.

That said Nottingham (mostly) always seems to have had a bit of a mess, with alternating fast and slow services, whether 1tph or 2tph, producing some uneven timings. The 1982 timetable for example has two arrivals within 20 mins at Nottingham, then nothing for 1hr40 - as one hour a fast Sheffield calls, and the other hour, it's a terminating "stopper". Perhaps the loop-at-Leicester pattern was best, as even though a change was required for the second train per hour, at least the timings were, presumably, more even.

 

[tbtc]

Looks like this period had at least two eras, pre- and post-Corby. I have the full 2008 timetable (pre-Corby): this was Stagecoach but the pattern was similar to the early years of privatisation, minus the looping at Leicester. Still only 1tph to Sheffield, two to Nottingham but leaving 5 mins apart from St Pancras. You could no longer reach Nottingham by getting the Sheffield to Leicester and changing there. Fasts at xx25, xx55 and "slows" at xx00 and xx30. I presume it was purely HSTs and Meridians by then, with no 170s?

Yeah, there was so much going on in about five years that it’s hard for me to remember exactly what the various stages were during that period

The “two within five minutes of each other” timetable was started in National Express days with the slow 170 heading to Derby/ Nottingham shortly after the fast Sheffield/ Nottingham had left, taking around twenty minutes longer to get to Leicester (versus the non stop HST) so that it waited there to be overtaken by the subsequent Nottingham/ Sheffield HST (that left London twenty five minutes after the Turbostar) - I don’t remember a “fast” Nottingham overtaking a “slow” Nottingham (or the same happening with Derby trains), I think the timetable was written so that the “slow” was still a viable option for longer distance passengers even though it may have taken best part of an hour longer end to end - National Express made a lot of small steps in the right direction, I guess I wish they’d had more confidence rather than incremental improvements but it wasn’t guaranteed to succeed, and a successor to the 168 was about the only thing on the market back then, it’s not like anyone was churning out tried and tested 125mph trains at privatisation

I remember the timetable became a good deal less "neat" when Corby opened. Did this also co-incide with 2tph to Sheffield?

Yes, from memory, the four (?) short 222s from Hull Trains were more than the Corby PVR, so allowed the Derby semi-fast services to be extended through to Yorkshire (although with terrible paths for the first couple of years, I think the semi fast was xx:35 from Sheffield so just after the xx:27 fast service… generally not stopping at Chesterfield due to pathing problems)

I agree about everything being less neat once Corby opened, I’m glad it did but it came at a cost to the rest of the MML

Interesting that both Sheffield and Nottingham went down to every 90 mins later in the 80s; sounds like a very poor service indeed for such relatively large cities.

I suppose that there’s an argument that a ninety minute frequency to Sheffield (so via Derby) might be better for some long distance passengers than an hourly service when half the trains had the time penalty of running and reversing at Nottingham

(But, I agree, it looks poor now - however at privatisation Manchester only had an hourly London service with 100/110mph paths, Leeds was only hourly, so were Bristol/ Cardiff etc, things have changed so much in the space of a generation)

The Leicester 'shorts' started in May 1988, by 1990 though Intercity allocated an additional HST to the MML and that allowed an hourly Nottingham/Sheffield service to start. Was still only every 45 minutes to Leicester and every 90 to Nottingham & Sheffield on Saturdays though.

Cheers for confirming

I guess they MML had to keep waiting for the ECML wires to get further and further so that more HSTs could be cascaded as 91s took over Kings Cross

Yes I remember the dithering over those, plus all sorts of speculation about the future of the 9-car 222s with which the forum membership would've had a field day!

Imagine the Speculation we’d have nowadays!

There were a few NSE services between Kettering/Wellingborough & Bedford when Corby opened the first time around but nothing like a clockface basis

Run by DMUs?

You could also have pre and post May 2018, as that's when the Thameslink recast happened but with only 1tph to Corby still, which didn't help the balance of the timetable much but flipped the paths in/out of St Pancras with some winners and some losers

That was a dark period, I think there were no Sheffield trains out of London between something like 16:58 and 18:05

(But I accept that a fully loaded twelve coach 700 will have more passengers than a typical 222, albeit not necessarily generating as much revenue, so it’d be Unfair to claim that the tail was wagging the dog)

 

[43074]

Run by DMUs?

Yes; https://www.flickr.com/photos/69947186@N08/13106128074/
(Link to Flickr shows a DMU at Kettering working a Bedford service)

It was only ever a sporadic service and probably only really to get DMUs off the Kettering to Corby shuttle back to Bletchley Depot.

 

[Route115?]

I think that the Kettering - Corby shuttle was introduced around 1990 after the Corby steel works closed to promote the area and was at lease part financed by the local authority. I seem to remember someone coming from the the L.A. to audit the costs of the operation at some stage. I don't think that it the original incarnation lasted for long. My memory is rather hazy.

 

[Western Lord]

In the early 1970s the hourly fasts went to Sheffield, alternately via Derby and Nottingham, with the hourly slow that was overtaken at Leicester going to Derby or Nottingham as appropriate. That lasted until 1977, when the overtaking moves at Leicester ceased; south of Leicester the Nottingham trains were accelerated only calling at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. When the Bedpan electric trains and the MML HSTs started most of the remaining St Albans and Luton stops were wiped out. The hourly pattern was lost in 1986 cutbacks.

That early seventies timetable provided an excellent hourly service from all principal stations to Sheffield with a cross platform interchange at Leicester. The "slows" were very tightly timed and the Peaks had to work hard.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes; https://www.flickr.com/photos/69947186@N08/13106128074/
(Link to Flickr shows a DMU at Kettering working a Bedford service)

It was only ever a sporadic service and probably only really to get DMUs off the Kettering to Corby shuttle back to Bletchley Depot.

Three trains e/w per day, IIRC

I think that the Kettering - Corby shuttle was introduced around 1990 after the Corby steel works closed to promote the area and was at lease part financed by the local authority. I seem to remember someone coming from the the L.A. to audit the costs of the operation at some stage. I don't think that it the original incarnation lasted for long. My memory is rather hazy.

2-3 years? Around 1984-86 time I'd say, rather than 1990.

That early seventies timetable provided an excellent hourly service from all principal stations to Sheffield with a cross platform interchange at Leicester. The "slows" were very tightly timed and the Peaks had to work hard.

We called them 'semi-fasts' back then. Many's the time TSRs or whatever made the down semi-fast late, which made the fast late, and Leicester station staff would get the fast away with a 2 min stop, Leicester North box would would set the road ASAP for the semi-fast to follow, the 45 would roar out, working up to 80 + mph approaching Syston only to be brought to a stand because the fast couldn't clear the next section in time!

However, it really was an excellent service overall, unless you were a regular Mkt Harboro to Loughboro' passenger - when the 15 min wait at Leicester made the journey a bit slow!

Attached is a shot of the down fast - very unusually hauled by a Cl 47 - leaving Leicester platrorm 2 one Saturday afternoon (IIRC) in - I think - July 1973 - with the semi-fast waiting for the road at Leicester platform 1. I think the crew in the pic had probably come off the fast.

 

[nw1]

Three trains e/w per day, IIRC

2-3 years? Around 1984-86 time I'd say, rather than 1990.

In between it seems! According to Wikipedia, opened from 1987-90.

 

[Helvellyn]

You could also have pre and post May 2018, as that's when the Thameslink recast happened but with only 1tph to Corby still, which didn't help the balance of the timetable much but flipped the paths in/out of St Pancras with some winners and some losers. 2tph to Sheffield started in December 2009 after the Hull Trains 222s had joined the fleet.

This also saw Bedford lose its peak service to/from London, with a rail replacement bus service operating Wellingborough-Bedford in the peaks for local traffic/connections.

The recast meant that on the Up the Corby was approximately ten minutes ahead of the semi-fast Nottingham, meaning Wellingborough had a 2tph service to London, but not 30 mins/30 mins apart as now. In the peak there were five trains between approx 07:00-08:00 from Wellingborough to London, but having come from Leeds/Sheffield/Nottingham these were always pretty full so the 30 minute all-day frequency today at least means you get a seat.

The one downside of the new timetable is that DfT wouldn't allow the semi-fast Sheffield to stop at Kettering instead of the fast Nottingham to facilitate one stop connections between Luton/Bedford/Wellingborough and Derby/Chesterfield/Sheffield

 

[nw1]

Thinking about it, was this the pattern when Corby was first opened? If I remember right it was about the same time as Sheffield going to 2tph?

xx25 and xx55 fasts both now went to Sheffield
xx30 became a Nottingham 'slow'
xx00 became a Corby
There was a new xx15 Nottingham fast, non-stop to Market Harborough.

Most operated by Meridians of various lengths, but the Nottingham fast was generally HST. (I remember the timetables of EMT used to show which it was, though the train length was not shown; I seem to remember seeing that on a CWN).

Then sometime before 2016, the timetable was changed so that the departure times became somewhat more irregular and 'messy', though not sure why that was. This was before the Thameslink changes.

 

[43074]

Then sometime before 2016, the timetable was changed so that the departure times became somewhat more irregular and 'messy', though not sure why that was. This was before the Thameslink changes.

You might be thinking of the changes for the linespeed improvements from December 2013, the pattern from St Pancras became:

xx01 Corby
xx15 Nottingham fast
xx26 Sheffield semi-fast
xx29 Nottingham stopper
xx58 Sheffield fast

 

[nw1]

You might be thinking of the changes for the linespeed improvements from December 2013, the pattern from St Pancras became:

xx01 Corby
xx15 Nottingham fast
xx26 Sheffield semi-fast
xx29 Nottingham stopper
xx58 Sheffield fast

Ah ok thanks. So basically slightly tweaked from the previous pattern. Yes I thought I remembered xx01 Corby and xx26 Sheffield. I'm fairly sure I travelled on an xx26, it was certainly a Sheffield service and ran non-stop to Leicester, I guess that would fit.

Perhaps generalising a bit, how did the pathing used to work with EMT and Thameslink? I guess the faster Thameslink services (every 15 mins to Bedford, at 03/18/33/48 in 2008, with peak extras from Moorgate; not sure what happened later) used the fast lines to St Albans and then switched to the slows?

 

[Pigeon]

I remember using the service for Bedford/Birmingham journeys off and on for several years, mostly with HSTs and the coming of the 170s. It was possible to do this with the kind of frequency I'd call "roughly hourly", meaning that there was usually one time somewhere during every clockface hour when a useful train to make the whole journey (including the non-MML bit after changing at Leicester) departed. This sort of frequency is broadly what I consider can be expected for most longish train journeys that don't go too close to the fringes of the network, so I considered it to meet the standard as it were. The wait at Leicester was often annoyingly long, but the MML section itself was the most straightforward part of the journey.

I had a look at times for the same journey a few months ago, just out of curiosity to see how it had changed, and if I'd still been needing to actually make the journey I'd have been fuming. No through trains from Bedford any more (apart from two a day at stupid times). In fact there seems to be a distinct shortage of through trains from anywhere to anywhere much. It now all seems to be based around the assumption that the only passengers who count are those going to/from London and anyone who does happen to want to do something else can go whistle, which is an all-too-prevalent paradigm and one I have no patience with.

The alternative would of course have been via Bletchley and up to Birmingham; the frequency was the same "roughly hourly" thing, but the journey itself was more of a pain and slower (maybe the time wasn't much different, but it certainly felt slower). Using the MML route was the preferable option then, but that no longer seems to be the case.

 

[Bald Rick]

Now it takes 4 changes to get from Kentish Town / Cricklewood / Hendon to Derby if we always take a train in the right direction

The answer for that is to go to St Pancras. It’s what I do from St Albans.

If the same journey could be done with 1 change at St Albans in the past it is a massive service deterioration for non-London journeys on the line.

it’s been a long time - 40 years? - since it could be done with one change at St Albans, and it was a slow journey.

However it remains possible - and much, much quicker than it ever was via St Albans - to do it with one change at St Pancras. That is a significant improvement in service.

How much traffic has lost to the M1 motorway as a result?

in net terms, substantially more passenger traffic will have been gained from the M1 than lost to it.

 

[XAM2175]

Now it takes 4 changes to get from Kentish Town / Cricklewood / Hendon to Derby if we always take a train in the right direction...

Always taking a train in the "right" direction is an artificial constraint you've imposed upon yourself, though.

 

[miklcct]

Always taking a train in the "right" direction is an artificial constraint you've imposed upon yourself, though.

Because no one in his right mind will deliberately takes a train in the wrong direction after reading the system map.

 

[miklcct]

in net terms, substantially more passenger traffic will have been gained from the M1 than lost to it.

The act of doubling back to and from St Pancras has already negated any speed improvement on the train to St Pancras, where Hendon / Cricklewood is just off the M1.

 

[nw1]

Always taking a train in the "right" direction is an artificial constraint you've imposed upon yourself, though.

To be fair maybe the fare is cheaper as it's "Not London" ?

(No idea whether that is actually true in this case).

The (theoretical) issue seems to be that the MML currently lacks a Reading or a Woking: an out-of-London major station from which suburban passengers can change to access long-distance services. Luton, Luton Airport Parkway and/or Bedford would be the obvious ones, and in the Stagecoach era one or other of these would have had at least an hourly "stopping" (well, more semi-fast) service to Leicester. I'd agree that, providing the fare is not higher, this is only a theoretical issue for Greater London stations such as Hendon etc.

The stations outside Greater London which the Corby misses (Harpenden, etc) might be the trickiest, I guess, as for them, London would be a siginificant back-track (and higher fares, I'm sure) but AFAIK would require two changes to reach Leicester.

 

[XAM2175]

To be fair maybe the fare is cheaper as it's "Not London" ?

(No idea in this case).

Yeah I realise that that might be the case, but that simply shifts it to a bog-standard time/effort-verses-money consideration - the easier and potentially faster option of doubling-back to London is there to be taken even if it costs a bit more. There's no outright inviolable restriction on the (appropriately-ticketed) double-back unless you decide to arbitrarily impose one yourself.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yeah I realise that that might be the case, but that simply shifts it to a bog-standard time/effort-verses-money consideration - the easier and potentially faster option of doubling-back to London is there to be taken even if it costs a bit more. There's no outright inviolable restriction on the (appropriately-ticketed) double-back unless you decide to arbitrarily impose one yourself.

Quite. It’s no different to, say, A journey from Kenton to Liverpool or Glasgow. Possible to go not via London, but will take you a lot longer With many changes.

 

[miklcct]

the easier and potentially faster option of doubling-back to London is there to be taken even if it costs a bit more.

And the competitor now becomes road transport which doesn't double back.

 

[XAM2175]

And the competitor now becomes road transport which doesn't double back.

With respect, most people don't care about that detail as much as you do.