EMR issues warning regarding e-tickets and dead phone batteries

[flythetube]

East Midlands Railway phone battery warning over e-tickets

The company says passengers who fail to present their ticket could be liable for a £100 penalty.

www.bbc.co.uk

Source: bbc.co.uk

Customers using mobile phones and e-tickets have been warned to ensure they have sufficient charge to be able to show their tickets else risk a Penalty Charge of £100z

 

[jfollows]

It's nothing new, but it's not a bad thing to point it out like this.
It's the reason many of us print out PDF tickets "just in case" and won't have anything to do with m-tickets.

 

[Mountain Man]

It's why my preferred ticket method is to order online on my phone but collect from a ticket machine. For the 2 minutes it takes to collect the ticket it avoids any risk, especially if its late in the day and I haven't charged my phone since the night before

 

[WizCastro197]

Yes, interesting how when I travelled from Sheffield to Leicester, the gateline assistant at Leicester was very irate at the vast amount of people who had e-tickets but phones have run out of battery. Probably unrelated. I do print tickets out and bring a battery pack with me, but this seems excessive when e-tickets I assume are meant to make the travelling experience easier. Not much can be done about it I guess except if passengers bring a battery pack, or print if they are able to.

 

[Hadders]

I really don't get what all the fuss is about. E-tickets give passengers a choice of how to present a ticket, you can print it out or display it on a phone (or even do both if you want a back-up). You can still choose to purchase a ticket using a ticket machine.

No-one objects to an airline ticket being issued as an e-ticket (which can be printed or dispayed on a phone). If I go to a rugby match, a concert or the theatre the ticket is issued as an e-ticket and has been for years. If I choose to display a ticket on my phone then I know I need to make arrangements to make sure my phone has sufficient battery.

It really isn't difficult.

 

[wilbers]

its even less difficult if you have a charging cable. I've charged it on trains, but never looked to do so at a station.

Out of curiosity, do stations with gatelines often have USB sockets somewhere, even if only enough to charge to 1% battery for the rare cases a battery unexpectedly goes completely out of charge?

 

[northwichcat]

No-one objects to an airline ticket being issued as an e-ticket (which can be printed or dispayed on a phone).

I think you're confusing tickets and boarding passes. A ticket confirms you've paid for travel. A boarding pass means you've also answered the security questions, entered your passport number, have your seat confirmed, been asked if you want the meal deal etc. 15 years ago budget airlines were saying "We're a ticketless airline", what that meant is they only needed your name or booking reference to retrive your booking and print out your boarding pass. Traditional airlines had issued tickets, that were exchanged for boarding passes. Now the majority of airlines don't have tickets.

With regards to boarding passes being issued as pdfs or in the airline's app, airlines like Ryanair allow that option for no additional charge. For your boarding pass to be printed at the airport they charge you an eye watering amount. Even if you don't have an printer or smart phone, it would make sense to visit your local library and pay whatever they charge to print out the pdf boarding pass, than to go to the airport without one.

Airlines don't allow you to check in online if your departure airport doesn't accept pdf/mobile boarding passes and you can then check in for free at the airport.

There's no financial benefit to rail passengers in being able to print your own pdf ticket at home. You're saying the train operator money but they aren't passing any of that saving on to you. If you got a 50p discount over the ticket office rate for using an e-ticket then it might be a different matter. That might not go down well with TSSA though!

its even less difficult if you have a charging cable. I've charged it on trains, but never looked to do so at a station.

With Northern you can't be sure you will get a train with USB charging points and even if you get a class 150 with them it might not be that easy to charge if you're not in a window seat or if you're standing.

I once made a Megabus journey of a few hours and despite the coach advertising USB charging and WiFi, neither feature was operational. I would guess that could happen on a train too.

 

[Hadders]

I think you're confusing tickets and boarding passes. A ticket confirms you've paid for travel. A boarding pass means you've also answered the security questions, entered your passport number, have your seat confirmed, been asked if you want the meal deal etc. 15 years ago budget airlines were saying "We're a ticketless airline", what that meant is they only needed your name or booking reference to retrive your booking and print out your boarding pass. Traditional airlines had issued tickets, that were exchanged for boarding passes. Now the majority of airlines don't have tickets.

With regards to boarding passes being issued as pdfs or in the airline's app, airlines like Ryanair allow that option for no additional charge. For your boarding pass to be printed at the airport they charge you an eye watering amount. Even if you don't have an printer or smart phone, it would make sense to visit your local library and pay whatever they charge to print out the pdf boarding pass, than to go to the airport without one.

Airlines don't allow you to check in online if your departure airport doesn't accept pdf/mobile boarding passes and you can then check in for free at the airport.

There's no financial benefit to rail passengers in being able to print your own pdf ticket at home. You're saying the train operator money but they aren't passing any of that saving on to you. If you got a 50p discount over the ticket office rate for using an e-ticket then it might be a different matter. That might not go down well with TSSA though!

That's splitting hairs.

To all intents and purposes the boarding pass is the ticket, the point is you're not getting on a plane without one. In the same way you need a ticket to board a train.

I'm sure the rail industry would love to go the same way as airlines and not issue tickets at stations (or change an eye-watering fee to do so) but they are not allowed to do so.

 

[Failed Unit]

its even less difficult if you have a charging cable. I've charged it on trains, but never looked to do so at a station.

Out of curiosity, do stations with gatelines often have USB sockets somewhere, even if only enough to charge to 1% battery for the rare cases a battery unexpectedly goes completely out of charge?

I did hear once an RPI offer to lend a passenger a charging block, but that was really to enforce the evidence they were evading the fare. The passenger declined so I am sure they put that in the report for the person to explain later to the court.

However it is difficult to find charging points at stations. EMR to be fair have put more ticket machines at the rural stations, but I used to not buy a ticket until I was on the train. (As seeing the train on a Saturday doesn’t mean you can travel on it). On arrival at Lincoln I am sure the Costa in the station would have a charging point. But use to keep the phone at above 20% and stop using it for the sake of the ticket if it dropped below.

I don‘t think EMR are being unreasonable here. If you risk a large fine for a flat battery you focus on keeping your phone charged (or use another method of getting your ticket)

 

[WAB]

I've seen some gatelines in EMR land have charging wires and power banks, presumably locally-sourced to call out those who are trying it on whilst also helping out passengers with valid tickets but an out-of-charge phone.

 

[fandroid]

I have a job that requires continuous phone access for very long working days on the move at times. I always carry 2 battery packs and 2 compatible cables, as I have occasionally left a cable in a hotel room or even on a train. I do remember a panic at Paddington once when I'd lost a cable. It reminded me how costly a forced purchase of the simplest phone gear is.Those outlets know how to charge the desperate! Perhaps TOCs could sell all the unclaimed cables/chargers they find on trains at the gateline. They've certainly always got an unending supply!

 

[northwichcat]

To all intents and purposes the boarding pass is the ticket, the point is you're not getting on a plane without one. In the same way you need a ticket to board a train.

You only need a ticket to board the train if ticket selling facilities are available at the station where you board and you're not in an area that has contactless PAYG (such as London). If train fares outside of London were simpler most tickets could be abolished UK wide - no paper tickets, no tickets on phones etc.

Passengers are never allowed anywhere near planes operated scheduled flights without boarding passes. If you try to get near one without a boarding pass, you'd be arrested.

 

[lookapigeon]

I really don't get what all the fuss is about. E-tickets give passengers a choice of how to present a ticket, you can print it out or display it on a phone (or even do both if you want a back-up). You can still choose to purchase a ticket using a ticket machine.

No-one objects to an airline ticket being issued as an e-ticket (which can be printed or dispayed on a phone). If I go to a rugby match, a concert or the theatre the ticket is issued as an e-ticket and has been for years. If I choose to display a ticket on my phone then I know I need to make arrangements to make sure my phone has sufficient battery.

It really isn't difficult.

Part of the problem is that sellers always seem to default to etickets. Most people do not bother to change the default settings, and so are at the mercy of having their phones charged/working etc.

I found this when I bought tickets via the LNER website, with a fresh account to bag some Amex cashback.

Luckily there was no charge for me to collect at the station, whilst CCST may seem old fashioned it fits nicely into my wallet and doesn't need to be charged/have reception.

Depending on what I am doing (eg. on a night out), I like to travel light and not have to hoof around power banks/chargers/leads or want to spend my time looking for plugs and places to charge nor worry about it.

If my phone goes dead I can at least get home.

 

[transportphoto]

Out of curiosity, do stations with gatelines often have USB sockets somewhere, even if only enough to charge to 1% battery for the rare cases a battery unexpectedly goes completely out of charge?

From memory there is a phone charging station (paid) just inside the gate line at Nottingham. This must be replicated somewhere!

I've seen some gatelines in EMR land have charging wires and power banks, presumably locally-sourced to call out those who are trying it on whilst also helping out passengers with valid tickets but an out-of-charge phone.

Ahh, exactly what I’m thinking of!

 

[Mountain Man]

I really don't get what all the fuss is about. E-tickets give passengers a choice of how to present a ticket, you can print it out or display it on a phone (or even do both if you want a back-up). You can still choose to purchase a ticket using a ticket machine.

No-one objects to an airline ticket being issued as an e-ticket (which can be printed or dispayed on a phone). If I go to a rugby match, a concert or the theatre the ticket is issued as an e-ticket and has been for years. If I choose to display a ticket on my phone then I know I need to make arrangements to make sure my phone has sufficient battery.

It really isn't difficult.

The difference with those is that tickets are only needed to be shown at the start, not the end as a train ticket is, so lack of battery is more of an issue. Furthermore the concept of ticket evasion is far less of an issue, in part due to their mandatory designated seating in many instances acting as a deterrent

 

[43066]

Yes, interesting how when I travelled from Sheffield to Leicester, the gateline assistant at Leicester was very irate at the vast amount of people who had e-tickets but phones have run out of battery.

Yes. It’s extraordinary how so many phones seem to die just at the crucial moment when people are required to show evidence of a train ticket they’ve definitely paid for, honest guv…

Of course, in the vast majority of cases, the person will simply be trying it on. Any half decent smartphone will last all day with normal use and, as noted above, battery packs are available for those that can’t, so there’s absolutely no excuse.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I don't see me ever relying solely on my mobile device as my sole means of evidencing my ticket. I don't trust any such device to be working correctly at the moment it's needed and that, coupled with this exact attitude of the TOCs to the requirement to show a ticket on demand (which goes far beyond the avoidance of payment and the intent to do so) is why. Murphy's Law means that at some time the device will fail to function properly exactly when it's needed.

Going back to air travel (since it came up): Leaving the likes of RyanAir aside, with a "real" airline, I can turn up at the airport check in, having already booked a flight, with nothing other than my passport (which is a physical document we all know is a requirement) and travel with absolutely no difficulty or additional liability.

 

[43066]

(which goes far beyond the avoidance of payment and the intent to do so)

The requirement is simply to show a ticket on demand, no more, no less. It’s true that the various excuses people trot out for not having one are likely to lead to a penalty fare if caught.

I don't trust any such device to be working correctly at the moment it's needed

Is there something wrong with your phone? In around fifteen years of carrying smartphones, including quite regularly using e tickets nowadays, my phone hasn’t once run out of power or “not worked properly”.

 

[Harpers Tate]

1) Correct
2) No

 

[AM9]

For most of my 'local'* rail travel, I normally purchase a CCST ticket at the station from the booking office or a TVM.
For longer journeys where I've booked online, I either get TOD at the origin station or print the PDF from my e-mail as a security even though I could take a chance with the PDF attached to the e-mail using my phone (but so far haven't taken that unnecessary risk however small it might seem to be by some).
EMR's position seems perfectly reasonable here, I control my mobile's use, my willingness to carry remote charging equipment and what I rely on. I wouldn't expect an RPO to believe that my ticket 'fell through a hole in my pocket' as an excuse for failing to present it so why would all of these other failures to take care be encouraged. If such a thing did happen, I'd just cough up the penalty fare (at its new higher price - that's the price of my misfortune).

* within the home counties and passing through the London zones.

 

[tommy2215]

EMR are correct here but it would certainly help a lot if they added usb ports to the all of their 158s.

 

[alxndr]

My issue with that article is that it implies that people will be able to charge their phone at the gateline to avoid receiving a penalty fare as long as they're happy to stand and wait, but that's not a guarantee and they could receive a penalty fare if they're stopped before the gateline. They would have been better off not mentioning any possibility of charging at gatelines to make it clear that the onus is on the passenger to bring their own charging equipment if they choose to rely on their phone to display e-tickets.

No-one objects to an airline ticket being issued as an e-ticket (which can be printed or dispayed on a phone). If I go to a rugby match, a concert or the theatre the ticket is issued as an e-ticket and has been for years. If I choose to display a ticket on my phone then I know I need to make arrangements to make sure my phone has sufficient battery.

The manner in which people plan flights and train travel are generally quite different. Many train journeys are short notice and not planned in advance, whereas the majority of flights are planned well in advance. I can think of one occasion where I got a flight at very short notice and that was in highly unlikely circumstances where I'd been in a car crash 300 miles from home and all trains heading south were cancelled due to severe weather. That happens to also be the only occasion that I've solely relied upon an electronic copy of an e-ticket because I had no other option.

Is there something wrong with your phone? In around fifteen years of carrying smartphones, including quite regularly using e tickets nowadays, my phone hasn’t once run out of power or “not worked properly”.

Good for you. My phone's battery has dropped significantly in a short space of time, and did run out during my journey home. As I had a CCST it didn't matter, but proved to me that I'm right to avoid trusting e-tickets. Generally my battery lasts for the majority of the day, but for whatever reason it just plummeted on that day as the screenshot below shows. For the record my phone is a Samsung Galaxy S20 which was at the time just over 2 years old. As my phone usually lasts a lot longer with no problems and I was just going to the climbing gym and back I didn't think I would need to prepare myself with a charging bank.

 

[Haywain]

proved to me that I'm right to avoid trusting e-tickets.

It's your phone that's the problem, not the eTickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Going back to air travel (since it came up): Leaving the likes of RyanAir aside, with a "real" airline, I can turn up at the airport check in, having already booked a flight, with nothing other than my passport (which is a physical document we all know is a requirement) and travel with absolutely no difficulty or additional liability.

You can only do that because the airport is a closed system and not an open one like the railway.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes. It’s extraordinary how so many phones seem to die just at the crucial moment when people are required to show evidence of a train ticket they’ve definitely paid for, honest guv…

I think a lot of people just use their phone for things like listening to music on their journey without realising how low the battery life is. A work colleague of mine ran her phone flat on a flight, so was unable to make a phone call when she returned to her car in the long stay car park and it wouldn't start.

The difference with those is that tickets are only needed to be shown at the start, not the end as a train ticket is, so lack of battery is more of an issue.

Exactly. I also don't think irregular rail users expect a ticket inspection at the end. After all, there's trains from Warrington to London that don't stop anywhere inbetween. So if an inspector has checked tickets after Warrington, a further ticket check seems pointless.

 

[spag23]

It's your phone that's the problem, not the eTickets.

Yes, phones are the problem. My phone - usually good for several days - went from full charge to dead in six hours last week. Fortunately all my tickets were on paper. With such sudden discharges, software bugs, damage by dropping, theft, loss etc, I'd never entrust any travel documents to this media.

 

[alxndr]

It's your phone that's the problem, not the eTickets.

It's proving a point that e-tickets, unless printed (which takes prior planning, printer access, and produces an inconveniently sized piece of paper), rely upon fallible technology. As I said, my phone generally has no issues with battery life and I had no reason to suspect that the battery would rapidly discharge during a short journey to an activity that does not require phone usage on a mild day. Indeed it has not suffered the same issue since.

Anyone travelling on electronic e-tickets needs to take precautions for the same occurring to them or be aware that they are running the risk of a large penalty. That's a risk I have realised is prudent to avoid by not using e-tickets.

 

[AM9]

EMR are correct here but it would certainly help a lot if they added usb ports to the all of their 158s.

It would help those who think that keeping their mobile in a usable state is the railway's problem.

 

[43066]

My issue with that article is that it implies that people will be able to charge their phone at the gateline to avoid receiving a penalty fare as long as they're happy to stand and wait,

I disagree that the original article on the EMR website implies that. It is carefully worded and states you may be able to. It also categorically states that, if the phone cannot be charged, you will be liable to a penalty fare and “my phone has died” won’t be accepted as an excuse.

I think a lot of people just use their phone for things like listening to music on their journey without realising how low the battery life is. A work colleague of mine ran her phone flat on a flight, so was unable to make a phone call when she returned to her car in the long stay car park and it wouldn't start.

It’s a simple matter of managing your devices to prevent scenarios like that from occurring. We’ve almost all of us been using smartphones for many years, so most of us are surely well used to this by now.

Exactly. I also don't think irregular rail users expect a ticket inspection at the end. After all, there's trains from Warrington to London that don't stop anywhere inbetween. So if an inspector has checked tickets after Warrington, a further ticket check seems pointless.

Again, anyone who has used a train since the mid nineteenth century will know their ticket might be checked more than once, anyone who has travelled through london terminals in the last decade or two will know they’re likely to encounter ticker barriers.

It's proving a point that e-tickets, unless printed (which takes prior planning, printer access, and produces an inconveniently sized piece of paper), rely upon fallible technology. As I said, my phone generally has no issues with battery life and I had no reason to suspect that the battery would rapidly discharge during a short journey to an activity that does not require phone usage on a mild day. Indeed it has not suffered the same issue since.

Anyone travelling on electronic e-tickets needs to take precautions for the same occurring to them or be aware that they are running the risk of a large penalty. That's a risk I have realised is prudent to avoid by not using e-tickets.

Perhaps you should consider upgrading your phone! Equally paper tickets aren’t infallible; they might blow away or end up illegible because they’ve had coffee (or beer) spilt on them.

Once again, the strange tendency of sone forum members to look for obscure difficulties and raise pointless objections to things most people take for granted reveals itself in this thread!

 

[AM9]

It's proving a point that e-tickets, unless printed (which takes prior planning, printer access, and produces an inconveniently sized piece of paper), rely upon fallible technology that can fail and their owners fail to take precautions. As I said, my phone generally has no issues with battery life and I had no reason to suspect that the battery would rapidly discharge during a short journey to an activity that does not require phone usage on a mild day. Indeed it has not suffered the same issue since.

Anyone travelling on electronic e-tickets needs to take precautions for the same occurring to them or be aware that they are running the risk of a large penalty. That's a risk I have realised is prudent to avoid by not using e-tickets.

Corrected that for you. Bear in mind that ALL technology can fail, and those who are relying on it are responsible for taking the reasonable measures to avoid greater consequences. The problem being discussed here is that a significant proportion of those assuming that their choice of a phone to 'carry' their ticket is not affected by discharging their battery's finite energy on other less important activities.

It’s a simple matter of managing your devices to prevent scenarios like that from occurring. We’ve almost all of us been using smartphones for many years.

Agreed, and if that is too difficult to do then use another solution, i.e. print at home, TOD or buy at the station.

Again, anyone who has used a train since the mid nineteenth century will know their ticket might be checked more than once, anyone who has travelled through london terminals in the last decade or two will know they’re likely to encounter ticker barriers.

Actually, I didn't exist in any of the 19th century - or much of the 20th either!

Perhaps you should consider upgrading your phone! Equally paper tickets aren’t infallible; they might blow away or end up illegible because they’ve had coffee (or beer) spilt on them.

Once again, the strange tendency of sone forum members to look for obscure difficulties and raise pointless objections to things most people take for granted reveals itself in this thread!

I have had this levelled at me by many who want to use their mobile for everything in their lives - and expect everybody else to do the same! It's an irony that they are back here complaining that nobody is removing all the possible risks of such a strategy for them, when (so far), other solutions are still freely available. After all, paper/card is the oldest form of information technology, (it's been around for at least 2000 years and will probably be around for at least the lifetime of every RUK member).