ENCTS and London buses

[Blindtraveler]

Hi

Likely missing the obvious here

Having just moved to England from Scotland I got on a London bus today with my freshly minted Medway Council issue encs card was rejected. I can't find any reason why it should have been and have red absolutely everything I can find everywhere and can't find anything that says it isn't valid. Am I presenting it wrongly? He's there something I have missed? Am I stupid? I shall be calling them on Monday but any pointers would be appreciated



Thanks

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi

Likely missing the obvious here

Having just moved to England from Scotland I got on a London bus today with my freshly minted Medway Council issue encs card was rejected. I can't find any reason why it should have been and have red absolutely everything I can find everywhere and can't find anything that says it isn't valid. Am I presenting it wrongly? He's there something I have missed? Am I stupid? I shall be calling them on Monday but any pointers would be appreciated



Thanks

Last I heard non-London cards didn’t operate the onboard readers, but had to be shown to the driver. Definitely should be valid for travel though.

I haven’t tried my own bus pass in London yet.

 

[jfollows]

See https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets; valid any time Saturdays.

 

[HughT]

Depends what you mean by "presenting". As swt_passenger notes, all you have to do is show it to the driver. In practice, waving it in the driver's general direction is usually all that's required! Ignore all these other folk who are pressing cards against readers - they have others sorts of cards.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Are!!!
I was unaware it would not work on the readers

I shall try the above next time

This time I suspect in probably cost neutral as I think I've qualified for a daily cap on Oyster

 

[davews]

Just dangle it at the driver and he smiles and lets you on. Indeed they don't work with their machines.

 

[ajs]

Been a few years since l used my ENCTS card on a London Transport bus but the card reader beeped as it rejected the card. Showed it to driver who just jerked his head indicating to get on. A few stops later the travelling ticket inspectors got on and l thought l might have some explaining to do. But no, inspector saw my card was from out of the area, smiled said thank you and that was that.

 

[Blindtraveler]

That's what I was particularly afraid of, a revenue check which given the number of people traveling in the area that I was today was a strong possibility. But as several have confirmed to just show it to the driver in the old-fashioned way that's exactly what I'll do, although I think on days when I'm on a travel card, however long they last, I'll continue to use that as its probably more straightforward.

Travel cards these days for me are on a southeastern smart card hence my comment

 

[Bayum]

Interesting. Never knew that this was a thing - just thought my ENCTS pass never worked anywhere other than Leeds!

 

[TUC]

What about using ENCTS cards out of area outside London? Should card readers recognise these?

 

[transportphoto]

What about using ENCTS cards out of area outside London? Should card readers recognise these?

Yes. ENCTS passes are typically universally recognised by ticket machines across England, the exception being in London.

 

[TUC]

Yes. ENCTS passes are typically universally recognised by ticket machines across England, the exception being in London.

One does have to wonder why, yet again, TfL are allowed to be the exception.

 

[PeterC]

One does have to wonder why, yet again, TfL are allowed to be the exception.

The short answer is that Oyster was there first.

 

[Nicholas43]

Does TfL get any revenue? If yes, who from, and how?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Presumably they get something as part of their funding deal as compensation for transporting encts holding tourists from places as far lung as Cumbria and Cornwall via everywhere in between on their network.


If and when they move to a new generation type of reader when oyster is either significantly upgraded or replaced then I should imagine that this will also be compatible with non London en CTS passes

 

[ajs]

I thought when l posted a reply earlier that there had been a similar thread and it was just over a year ago

ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader . As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it...

www.railforums.co.uk

I had completely forgotten about my trip to London last year.

As far as l know, local authorities only make a payment to bus companies for journeys in their area, so TFL only seek payments from local authorities in their areas. They do not and cannot seek payment from any other council in England.

How the different local authorities in TFL land work out how much they have to pay, l have no idea - it could be that they pay an agreed amount each year?

 

[CyrusWuff]

If and when they move to a new generation type of reader when oyster is either significantly upgraded or replaced then I should imagine that this will also be compatible with non London en CTS passes

I'd assume London buses are fitted with the same tri-readers as ticket barriers and validators, thus can handle Oyster, ITSO and CPAY.

I suspect it's likely they're not configured with the identifiers required to accept non-London passes, but I'm not sure why.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

I'd assume London buses are fitted with the same tri-readers as ticket barriers and validators, thus can handle Oyster, ITSO and CPAY.

I suspect it's likely they're not configured with the identifiers required to accept non-London passes, but I'm not sure why.

Correct. The necessary settings nearly got put in a couple of years back but the project seemed to fizzle out. Can't remember quite why, possibly a bit of funding was needed but no-one could work out where from. All very silly.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Wish they would. However I suspect we will get very little in the way of common sense out of TFL until a new mayoral administration is in charge

 

[Stephen42]

I thought when l posted a reply earlier that there had been a similar thread and it was just over a year ago

ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader . As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it...

www.railforums.co.uk

I had completely forgotten about my trip to London last year.

As far as l know, local authorities only make a payment to bus companies for journeys in their area, so TFL only seek payments from local authorities in their areas. They do not and cannot seek payment from any other council in England.

How the different local authorities in TFL land work out how much they have to pay, l have no idea - it could be that they pay an agreed amount each year?

The collective grouping of London Councils works out settlements for TfL, Rail Delivery Group (for rail travel on Freedom Passes) and a few non TfL buses which are apportioned to individual boroughs based on usage. The total for buses alone is the order of £150m per year.

Passenger surveys are used in combination with recorded tap ins, for buses 95% of the estimated usage is recorded electronically. That 5% will include a number of people holding Freedom Passes.

 

[TUC]

The short answer is that Oyster was there first.

Yes, but other bus networks have their own electronic ticking systems and readers, and yet are still able to read ENCTS passes alongside them.

 

[Blindtraveler]

All the machines designed for bus companies outside of London that are now in service were designed later than the system currently in use with TFL and some of the functionality on product such as the ticketer terminals is really quite modern in comparison.

I suspect the answer longer term is to move away from microchips in cards to QR codes but we are jumping ahead of ourselves a bit here. I love how this debate has developed from a simple query. I'm still feeling rather stupid for not having looked further into it before attempting to use yesterday

 

[AM9]

I think that the proportion of non GLA ENCTS (and CCTS Travelcards) usage on TfL buses is miniscule compared to the volume of Freedom and Oyster journeys. The loss of revenue that might sink even some of the larger operations in the provinces would be secondary to the main role of buses in London which is to remove the need for most private car use.

 

[matt_world2004]

The bus drivers are supposed to push a button on the ETM that looks like a wheelchair when a non freedom ENCTS passes in London

Unlike outside London TfL gets a fixed grant to carry ENCTS passes from london councils instead of revenue based on usage. So it's not vitally important to record the boarding locations for ENCTS pass users . Except to estimate demand

However on london buses that cross the Greater london boundary there is still reimbursements for boarding outside London

We're you denied boarding the bus ?

 

[MikeWh]

However I suspect we will get very little in the way of common sense out of TFL until a new mayoral administration is in charge

I suspect things will change if and when both central and London goverment is the same colour.

 

[Vespa]

I had a similar experience with my ENCTS pass, the driver just nodded and let me on.

 

[TUC]

I suspect things will change if and when both central and London goverment is the same colour.

There were for six years till 2016. Not sure that made much difference.

 

[MikeWh]

There were for six years till 2016. Not sure that made much difference.

What do you expect with buffoon in charge? Perhaps I should have stated both red rather than blue.

Note how buffoon was happy to extol things he'd put in that Shapps had just decided to remove (24hr Freedom pass)

 

[TUC]

What do you expect with buffoon in charge? Perhaps I should have stated both red rather than blue.

Note how buffoon was happy to extol things he'd put in that Shapps had just decided to remove (24hr Freedom pass)

i genuinely try to not be party political on this forum, but to use words like 'buffoon' is just unconstructive.

 

[matt_world2004]

Currently there is some sort of contract to replace the ticketing machines in buses I would imagine updated encts functionality would be included in the specification.

It is probably the old adage if it ain't broke why fix it . Encts passes are still being carried on london buses and tfl are getting an approximation of usage through usage of buttons on the console