ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

[Busaholic]

But if TfL receive reimbursement based on the number of journeys made by ENCTS passholderts (irrespective of who issued the pass), it might matter.

Unless things have altered in the last couple of years (unlikely, I'd have thought) they don't, and never have.

 

[SouthernR]

Last time l used the pass in London, was several years go and the travelling inspectors boarded wanting to see Oyster Cards etc. No ticket had been given when l boarded with my pass but Inspectors were happy with the ENCTS pass.

For paying passengers, do inspectors check that their Oyster or bank card has been registered for the current journey, presumably with a scanner?

 

[ajs]

As far as l know the inspectors use some hand held device to see if oyster or contactless card has been tapped in.

 

[Goldfish62]

For paying passengers, do inspectors check that their Oyster or bank card has been registered for the current journey, presumably with a scanner?

Yes, smartcards and bank cards are scanned.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, smartcards and bank cards are scanned.

Initially Oystercards were scanned and a printout of the last 4 digits of bank cards from the ticket machine was checked against the cards people showed, but they are now also scanned.

 

[Goldfish62]

Initially Oystercards were scanned and a printout of the last 4 digits of bank cards from the ticket machine was checked against the cards people showed, but they are now also scanned.

And of course that wouldn't be possible now anyway because the print function on the "ticket" machines has been permanently disabled.

 

[wildcard]

In which case, a great many ENCTS passes are not being recorded in London based on observation on my travels. This may explain a new enthusiasm for doing just that.

My belief is this new found enthusiasm is indeed an attempt to clamp down on bogus passes being flashed to drivers . The ENCTS does look like a Freedom Pass through the scratched & grubby perspex - so a driver might think the only reason for the passenger not swiping is the card has expired / is stolen or lost & revoked or otherwise. The fact it doesn't work is proof of that in their eyes - hence the challenge I received .
I can't see how TfL can obtain any recompense from the local counties - a single "Other Passes" button ( often not pressed ) can't distinguish between Herts, Bucks, Essex etc . Maybe all the adjacent English counties pay a fixed proportion - I can't see them being happy with that if no TfL services approach their county boundary. A Freedom Pass presumably can be recharged back to the issuing London Borough as its Oyster compatible.

 

[duncombec]

I can't see how TfL can obtain any recompense from the local counties - a single "Other Passes" button ( often not pressed ) can't distinguish between Herts, Bucks, Essex etc . Maybe all the adjacent English counties pay a fixed proportion - I can't see them being happy with that if no TfL services approach their county boundary.

Isn't the idea of ENCTS passes that usage is charged to the county the journey starts from - hence issues in places like Cumbria, Devon and Cornwall, where they are paying huge amounts for visitors to use their services? Or is the situation different in London with the Freedom pass/ENCTS crossover?

If my understanding is correct, all ENCTS usage in London would be charged back to the boroughs (whether or not they charge by location of boarding is something a local person would have to answer), but for places like Hertfordshire (e.g. service 292) or Kent (e.g. 96, 428, 492), pass use would be charged to the respective county until it reached the border.

I believe passes are also only valid at their time of validity in the starting area (so you couldn't use a Freedom pass to travel from Kent into London, but you could from London into Kent, at 8:30am, for example).

Happy to be corrected on any of the above by someone in better know.

 

[carlberry]

Isn't the idea of ENCTS passes that usage is charged to the county the journey starts from - hence issues in places like Cumbria, Devon and Cornwall, where they are paying huge amounts for visitors to use their services? Or is the situation different in London with the Freedom pass/ENCTS crossover?

If my understanding is correct, all ENCTS usage in London would be charged back to the boroughs (whether or not they charge by location of boarding is something a local person would have to answer), but for places like Hertfordshire (e.g. service 292) or Kent (e.g. 96, 428, 492), pass use would be charged to the respective county until it reached the border.

I believe passes are also only valid at their time of validity in the starting area (so you couldn't use a Freedom pass to travel from Kent into London, but you could from London into Kent, at 8:30am, for example).

Happy to be corrected on any of the above by someone in better know.

ENCTS pass usage is never recharged back to the issuing county, much to the annowance of tourist hot spots like Cornwall and Cumbria.

 

[Goldfish62]

Isn't the idea of ENCTS passes that usage is charged to the county the journey starts from - hence issues in places like Cumbria, Devon and Cornwall, where they are paying huge amounts for visitors to use their services? Or is the situation different in London with the Freedom pass/ENCTS crossover?

If my understanding is correct, all ENCTS usage in London would be charged back to the boroughs (whether or not they charge by location of boarding is something a local person would have to answer), but for places like Hertfordshire (e.g. service 292) or Kent (e.g. 96, 428, 492), pass use would be charged to the respective county until it reached the border.

I believe passes are also only valid at their time of validity in the starting area (so you couldn't use a Freedom pass to travel from Kent into London, but you could from London into Kent, at 8:30am, for example).

Happy to be corrected on any of the above by someone in better know.

Firstly, to clarify, the organisation that administers and holds the budget for ENCTS/Freedom Passes is London Councils, which is the local government association for London, rather than the individual boroughs. Having each borough manage concessionary travel individually would be completely impractical.

There is an annual budget for TfL and a separate budget for other bus operators, who are also legally required to accept ENCTS/Freedom Passes on qualifying local services in London. For example, services into Heathrow and Kingston.

Reimbursement to TfL and other operators on based on the recorded boardings within Greater London. As for what happens outside London on TfL services I believe, but can't be entirely sure, that it's all accounted for in individual local authorities' annual payments to TfL for the sections of route outside London..

 

[TTS]

ENCTS pass usage is never recharged back to the issuing county, much to the annowance of tourist hot spots like Cornwall and Cumbria.

But that is taken into account by the amounts paid by central government to local authorities for (among other things) ENCTS pass usage reimbursement. There is doubtless unhappiness in some areas as to how those amounts are calculated.

As I understand it, it is no different in London: the London Boroughs collectively pay TfL for ENCTS (which includes ENCTS passes branded as Freedom Passes) pass usage. Whether TfL receive a fixed payment irrespective of pass usage or a 'per pass usage' figure I do not know, but have upthread, posed the question.

If it is the former, the apparent disinterest by drivers in recording ENCTS pass usage may be explained.

If the latter, the present financial difficulties may have prompted someone to impress on operators the need to monitor pass usage more rigorously. Less pass-button pressing means less money but this was a well-known problem in pre-ITSO-compliant pass readers in the provinces (see Padarn Bus, GHA etc) - a problem solvable by fixing the pass reader software.

 

[Goldfish62]

But that is taken into account by the amounts paid by central government to local authorities for (among other things) ENCTS pass usage reimbursement. There is doubtless unhappiness in some areas as to how those amounts are calculated.

As I understand it, it is no different in London: the London Boroughs collectively pay TfL for ENCTS (which includes ENCTS passes branded as Freedom Passes) pass usage. Whether TfL receive a fixed payment irrespective of pass usage or a 'per pass usage' figure I do not know, but have upthread, posed the question.

If it is the former, the apparent disinterest by drivers in recording ENCTS pass usage may be explained.

If the latter, the present financial difficulties may have prompted someone to impress on operators the need to monitor pass usage more rigorously. Less pass-button pressing means less money but this was a well-known problem in pre-ITSO-compliant pass readers in the provinces (see Padarn Bus, GHA etc) - a problem solvable by fixing the pass reader software.

Payment to TfL is based on the number of passes recorded. It's not a fixed amount.

 

[TTS]

Payment to TfL is based on the number of passes recorded. It's not a fixed amount.

Thanks. Thus, disinterest by drivers in recording (non-London) ENCTS pass usage / Oyster readers not reading non-London ENCTS passes is a real issue. TfL is losing money as a result.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks. Thus, disinterest by drivers in recording (non-London) ENCTS pass usage / Oyster readers not reading non-London ENCTS passes is a real issue. TfL is losing money as a result.

Yes, it is.

 

[43066]

Yes, smartcards and bank cards are scanned.

Believe I’m correct in saying they can’t actually tell whether a Contactless card has been tapped in because payment isn’t taken until the end of that day (certainly that’s the case on the railway scanners).

The reason for scanning contactless cards is to see if that card has been black listed, which happens when a debit card linked to a bank account with no funds is persistently tapped in, in order to gain free travel on the network.

 

[etr221]

My understanding is that - like any other retailer - TfL have no ability or right to write to a bankcard (unlike to an Oystercard, which is theirs) - what happens when one is tapped or scanned is that it read (so validity (as a bankcard) or blacklisting can be checked), a record made by TfL on their system. At day's end, all these records are reconciled, and the appropriate charge made to the bank/card company. And records of inspectors scans are taken account of - and if there is an inspector's record without a preceeding touch in, the appropriate 'penalty' charge made.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is that - like any other retailer - TfL have no ability or right to write to a bankcard (unlike to an Oystercard, which is theirs) - what happens when one is tapped or scanned is that it read (so validity (as a bankcard) or blacklisting can be checked), a record made by TfL on their system. At day's end, all these records are reconciled, and the appropriate charge made to the bank/card company. And records of inspectors scans are taken account of - and if there is an inspector's record without a preceeding touch in, the appropriate 'penalty' charge made.

It's different on buses, because they can read from the ticket machine which card numbers have touched in on that bus on that journey and actually verify them.

I know this is the case because I almost got PFed when a bus driver had not correctly set up the journey (fortunately he admitted this to the inspectors, and I was curiously issued a zero-fare ticket instead).

 

[paul1609]

TfL ought to be well aware that acceptance of ENCTS passes within defined times is a statutory obligation and it is their responsibility to ensure contracted operators and therir staff are regularly reminded of this.

What is baffling is why Oyster readers have not been adapted to read ITSO-standard cards like ENCTS passes.

It is strange because they work OK with my GTR key with a travelcard.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is strange because they work OK with my GTR key with a travelcard.

Yes they do. As I states earlier in this thread it is not ITSO itself that's the problem, but ENCTS on ITSO. It is only non-London ENCTS that doesn't work. All ITSO cards loaded with a travelcard work.

 

[matt_world2004]

There is a dedicated button for encts passes on the electronic ticket machine . It is the wheelchair symbol

I will try and find a copy of the big red book op so you can show drivers on your phone if you have issues.

But if they refuse boarding OP contact tfl . There is a lot of agency drivers at the.moment who do not have knowledge of the ins and outs of ticketing. Highlighting problems like this will cause tfl to pressure operators to have more permenent staff

Edit here:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

They should definitely recognise them on the routes you mentioned due to how close to the greater London Boundary they go

 

[wildcard]

There is a dedicated button for encts passes on the electronic ticket machine . It is the wheelchair symbol

I will try and find a copy of the big red book op so you can show drivers on your phone if you have issues.

Thanks for a copy of the Drivers handbook - I have printed pages 151/152 and will take it with me in future .