England & Wales Tracing App to be released Sept 24th

[DelayRepay]

I’m tired of the economy being trashed to appease Facebook Karens and paranoid maskivists who cannot understand risk. Soon enough many of these people will lose their jobs, and will no doubt change their tune, but by then it will be too late.

I am also tired of this. I am not sure how the App we are discussing will make things any worse though.

Track and trace is a complete farce and will be as ineffective as everything else intended to combat this virus. The best thing to do would be to lift the restrictions for the majority of us and get back to normality as quickly as possible. That will mean more deaths but we will be getting deaths whatever we do.

I agree that the current system is a complete farce, but I hope the app will make it more reliable, and therefore will reduce the number of infections and allow other restrictions to be lifted earlier than they otherwise would be. To be clear I am not suggesting an elimination strategy, or even a strategy of keeping infections as low as possible. I am suggesting that we need to keep infections within certain limits to protect the NHS and other key services (and those limits may be higher than they were in April, given fewer people seem to need hospital care now). A better track and trace system would also give more intelligence about where transmission is occurring and therefore which of the current restrictions are working, and which are not.

How will these venues know whether you’ve “checked in” anyway? What’s to stop you just pointing your phone at the QR code?

Nothing, I suppose, but I think most people will do what is asked. Like everything, including the original lockdown, you do not need 100% compliance to make a difference.

I am just going to add, you talk about an understanding of risk. I understand risk - it is my job to understand risk. Risk is about uncertainty of outcome. This includes accepting that there is a risk in adopting new technology, including that the outcome might not be as expected/desired. Personally I think the benefits of the app outweigh the downsides even though the app will not be a silver bullet. A perfect example of understanding risk.

 

[AdamWW]

You certainly don’t speak for everyone by describing these measures as “slight inconveniences”. Track and trace is a complete farce and will be as ineffective as everything else intended to combat this virus. The best thing to do would be to lift the restrictions for the majority of us and get back to normality as quickly as possible. That will mean more deaths but we will be getting deaths whatever we do.

Can I ask - are you confident that the health system could cope this winter with unconstrained coronvairuis spreading?

Or do you think it's just something we have to live through?

 

[43066]

I agree that the current system is a complete farce, but I hope the app will make it more reliable, and therefore will reduce the number of infections and allow other restrictions to be lifted earlier than they otherwise would be. To be clear I am not suggesting an elimination strategy, or even a strategy of keeping infections as low as possible. I am suggesting that we need to keep infections within certain limits to protect the NHS and other key services (and those limits may be higher than they were in April, given fewer people seem to need hospital care now). A better track and trace system would also give more intelligence about where transmission is occurring and therefore which of the current restrictions are working, and which are not.

I simply don’t think this app will make a difference. For one thing it’s far too late. Like masks, it is yet another blind alley.

Can I ask - are you confident that the health system could cope this winter with unconstrained coronvairuis spreading?

Or do you think it's just something we have to live through?

We keep hearing about the NHS failing to cope but it’s been failing to cope since the pandemic started, which is partly responsible for the 200,000 premature deaths predicted from the first lockdown. But if course nobody cares about anything other than Covid deaths.

In the end, yes it’s something we are going to live through. We cannot eliminate the virus, we can’t afford to lockdown again, and we don’t have a vaccine. The only sensible option left is to open back up and accept there will sadly be more deaths (mostly of people at the end of their natural lives in their 80s and 90s, thousands of whom die from flu every year).

I’m not advocating a completely uncontrolled spread, the genuinely clinically vulnerable should be able to isolate, but we cannot continue to sacrifice the many just to protect the few.

 

[Dent]

The same people that moan and groan over the restrictions (and yes, some of them are stupid, but the vast majority of them are little more than slight inconveniences) will also refuse to do anything that might allow them to be lifted!

Which restrictions will this allow to be lifted?

If this really is a replacement for all current restrictions then it would be worth considering. If (as I suspect) this is purely an additional demand with no benefit, carrying an additional risk of arbitrary detention, then it is not in anyone's interest to use it.

 

[kevin_roche]

As it appears the testing system is falling apart any tracing app is a waste of time.

Yes, I know someone who has a job answering the phone and helping them to find a nearby test centre. They were not able to find any test available yesterday for anyone who phoned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I know someone who has a job answering the phone and helping them to find a nearby test centre. They were not able to find any test available yesterday for anyone who phoned.

I think this is a false premise. It's true that there is an issue with the testing system at present in terms of capacity. However, that doesn't affect the fact that the most contacts (known or unknown) that can be traced from an individual that does test positive, the better.

 

[kevin_roche]

To answer the original question I have a suitable but quite old smartphone but its full and I will have to delete another app to make space for it. I'm pretty reluctant to delete what I have currently have as they are all apps I use regularly. Trainline might have to go to make space. I have not used it since the start of lockdown.

I think this is a false premise. It's true that there is an issue with the testing system at present in terms of capacity. However, that doesn't affect the fact that the most contacts (known or unknown) that can be traced from an individual that does test positive, the better.

Pretty difficult to test positive if you can't even get a test.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pretty difficult to test positive if you can't even get a test.

That's the exact false premise I meant. That you can't get a test doesn't mean many thousands of people are not being tested. It is because insufficient tests are available to meet demand (lab capacity, not test sites), not because they have stopped testing people.

 

[py_megapixel]

You certainly don’t speak for everyone by describing these measures as “slight inconveniences”. Track and trace is a complete farce and will be as ineffective as everything else intended to combat this virus. The best thing to do would be to lift the restrictions for the majority of us and get back to normality as quickly as possible. That will mean more deaths but we will be getting deaths whatever we do.

I don't deny that. However, I don't believe our government are going to lift restrictions if there is the prospect of a huge number of deaths (we can debate whether that is right another time but it's true).

The problem is that I don't think ignoring lockdown advice is going to persuade this government that they've done anything wrong; instead it persuades them to make the advice law and start fining people for it, as we've seen already.

Honestly my ideal outcome would be a government which isn't a total farce, and a proper contact tracing system that isn't an absolute farce. But that probably won't happen.

How will these venues know whether you’ve “checked in” anyway? What’s to stop you just pointing your phone at the QR code?

They can, do, and should check that the confirmation screen shows on your phone before letting you in.

 

[MikeWM]

Here is a BBC News article which addresses the question of confidentiality of data. About 11% of the Scottish population have downloaded it so far

Is it confidential?
Yes. The app uses anonymous codes or "keys". These will be exchanged between phones via Bluetooth but they contain no personal data.

Which is good (*if* you're going to go down this road, then the Apple-Google method is probably about the best compromise between privacy and something that vaguely works).

*However*, the app apparently 'also' will allow 'check-in' at venues via QR code. I fail to see how it can do that if the app has no personal data on you.

Does anyone know how this circle is squared? (or is the Government talking nonsense as usual?)

 

[AdamWW]

Which restrictions will this allow to be lifted?

If this really is a replacement for all current restrictions then it would be worth considering. If (as I suspect) this is purely an additional demand with no benefit, carrying an additional risk of arbitrary detention, then it is not in anyone's interest to use it.

That's not how I see it.

It's supposed to be a tool to reduce transmission. If it works, they will be able to reduce restrictions (whether they know it's due to the app or not).

 

[Huntergreed]

Not strictly related to the app, but as an iPhone user I just noticed this appeared in my settings recently:

Does anyone know what this new “exposure notifications” part means, is apple now running a private track and trace system via Bluetooth/GPS?

 

[lkpridgeon]

Not strictly related to the app, but as an iPhone user I just noticed this appeared in my settings recently:

Does anyone know what this new “exposure notifications” part means, is apple now running a private track and trace system via Bluetooth/GPS?

No they're not running the system, it allows you to enable and disable the functionality (System API's) the contract tracing apps use: Bluetooth Low Energy & Priority running to prevent the app from being suspended when running in the background.

 

[MikeWM]

In any event, I can't use the app because I still have a Microsoft phone. Admittedly that's a niche problem nowadays!

But even if I could, I wouldn't. The QR-scanning 'check-in' idea puts me off immensely. How long before that is tied in to 'Operation Moonshot'/Boris' 'enabling test' every morning, to determine whether you're *allowed* into venues or not? I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to see that a Chinese-style 'social credit' system is creeping ever closer here.

They can, do, and should check that the confirmation screen shows on your phone before letting you in.

See my point?

 

[Huntergreed]

In any event, I can't use the app because I still have a Microsoft phone. Admittedly that's a niche problem nowadays!

But even if I could, I wouldn't. The QR-scanning 'check-in' idea puts me off immensely. How long before that is tied in to 'Operation Moonshot'/Boris' 'enabling test' every morning, to determine whether you're *allowed* into venues or not? I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to see that a Chinese-style 'social credit' system is creeping ever closer here.



See my point?

This is what scares me. The idea of having to show you’ve tested negative to be allowed in anywhere and the idea of staff being able to check my phone for things like this, what happened to privacy? If that’s the way we’re going, I’ll be moving elsewhere

I’ve already seen an (independent) cafe in Scotland stating you must have the “Protect Scotland” app downloaded and it must show you have not come into contact with anyone with the Virus before you’re allowed in.

 

[birchesgreen]

Is this the app which uses the Apple Google API or not?

 

[AdamWW]

Is this the app which uses the Apple Google API or not?

I believe it does (and the iphone equivalent) for the "did you sit next to someone with Covid-19 on the train" bit of it, but not the "I was in Starbucks from 12:00 to 12:45" part.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But even if I could, I wouldn't. The QR-scanning 'check-in' idea puts me off immensely. How long before that is tied in to 'Operation Moonshot'/Boris' 'enabling test' every morning, to determine whether you're *allowed* into venues or not?

If you have actually tested positive for COVID19 and you don't stay at home, I'm sorry, but that is low - incredibly selfish.

It therefore can't have any adverse effect on you unless it really, really needs to because you are incapable of making judgements in consideration of others.

I do get the concern about a "social credit" system but it is unlikely to extend to that, it's simply about testing people more often to ensure they do not go out in public when infected. Which if you had the flu would also be pretty antisocial, TBH.

This is what scares me. The idea of having to show you’ve tested negative to be allowed in anywhere and the idea of staff being able to check my phone for things like this, what happened to privacy?

The privacy you seek is to be able to disregard others by wilfully going into places where you could spread COVID19 if you have been in close contact with someone who is infected?

Seriously?

They aren't asking you to show your Web history. It infringes your privacy less than collecting your name and phone number on a sign-up sheet.

 

[MikeWM]

If you have actually tested positive for COVID19 and you don't stay at home, I'm sorry, but that is low - incredibly selfish.

I'm not sure you've got the point I'm making. A 'papers please' society doesn't just adversely affect those who don't have the right papers - it is a dismal state of affairs for those who are doing the right thing too.

I do get the concern about a "social credit" system but it is unlikely to extend to that, it's simply about testing people more often to ensure they do not go out in public when infected. Which if you had the flu would also be pretty antisocial, TBH.

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that it is 'unlikely to extend to that', given all the unlikely things that have happened in the past 6 months. Many governments around the world would absolutely *love* to have something like this in place. Why would they not use this 'crisis' to move in that direction, if they think they can get away with it?

 

[PHILIPE]

Who will be running this initiative ? Serco ? Dido Harding ? If so, then it is doomed now.

 

[Llanigraham]

I think this is a false premise. It's true that there is an issue with the testing system at present in terms of capacity. However, that doesn't affect the fact that the most contacts (known or unknown) that can be traced from an individual that does test positive, the better.

We have 2 testing centres in this area.
One on Friday closed at 1400, when it was due to be open until 1800, because they had been told not to do anymore tests. This was despite people having appointments, some from more than 50 miles away. No one was contacted to tell them not to come. All they did was lock the gates and returned to their Barracks, leaving a pen written note "Closed".
The other site ran out of tests but again did not inform any of those that had appointments. When they rang to find out why they were told that there was nothing else available for at least 7 days!

 

[Pete_uk]

No, because I would rather not worry about how close I was to someone with the virus.

Plus the Bluetooth battery thing

 

[py_megapixel]

A system like this is only as good as the data it has. In other words, it can only be expected to work if a large proportion of the population use it.

Not that this will stop people (both on and off this forum) insisting all along that they were right to not download it, because it ultimately was a failure.
(and, if the poll is representative of the wider population, then I believe it will be).

 

[WelshBluebird]

No, because I would rather not worry about how close I was to someone with the virus.

So would I!
But sadly that is not the current world we are in!

 

[185143]

I will not be downloading it.

Partly because I have no desire to give personal information out unnecessarily (the same reason why I also give false contact details to establishments which request them). I have no faith that this information will be stored properly, or that it won’t be used for nefarious purposes.

Partly because I don’t want the inconvenience of having to self isolate just because I’ve walked down the same street as someone who later tests positive.

Mostly because I’m of the view they restricting transmission of this virus amongst the healthy population is a pointless exercise. The obsession with reducing cases at all costs is currently destroying our economy, and ruining peoples’ livelihoods and lives. This app is yet another futile hobby horse of this ridiculous government and I do not wish to be any part of it.



My thoughts exactly.

Great minds think alike.

 

[Bantamzen]

I will be downloading it. I'm not hugely worried about data security, using the Google/Apple API means its all anonymised. And my curiosity has been peaked with this thing finally hitting the live version after all this time.

 

[Huntergreed]

I will not be downloading it.

Partly because I have no desire to give personal information out unnecessarily (the same reason why I also give false contact details to establishments which request them). I have no faith that this information will be stored properly, or that it won’t be used for nefarious purposes.

Partly because I don’t want the inconvenience of having to self isolate just because I’ve walked down the same street as someone who later tests positive.

Mostly because I’m of the view they restricting transmission of this virus amongst the healthy population is a pointless exercise. The obsession with reducing cases at all costs is currently destroying our economy, and ruining peoples’ livelihoods and lives. This app is yet another futile hobby horse of this ridiculous government and I do not wish to be any part of it.



My thoughts exactly.

This is exactly my opinion on the Scottish app.

I will not take part in the government's attempt to do something that I see as a completely pointless, meritless exercise (suppressing this virus, which is simply delaying the inevitable), and I will absolutely not be putting my personal information into a government app or indeed placing myself under house arrest for 2 weeks for something I see as futile (this virus can't be stopped at this point, elimination is a waning fantasy)

 

[thejuggler]

General consensus amongst those who the Government should be listening to is the level of cases is now so high test, track and trace is a waste of time.

The testing system is now broken, so you can't track or trace affected individuals.

A caller to R5 this morning said their local testing centre in south west London had found a workaround to the problem. Husband turned up without an appointment because he couldn't get one. The testing station was empty, the operator entered a postcode for Aberdeen and he was given a booking code.

Of more concern is testing isn't available for those who should have it. Medics, nurses, teachers, care homes etc.

 

[NorthOxonian]

A system like this is only as good as the data it has. In other words, it can only be expected to work if a large proportion of the population use it.

Not that this will stop people (both on and off this forum) insisting all along that they were right to not download it, because it ultimately was a failure.
(and, if the poll is representative of the wider population, then I believe it will be).

I wouldn't be certain. I'll try to dig it out, but I read that there was a study showing that if just 15% downloaded a Track and Trace App, there would be a 15% fall in infections. The figure from this forum is higher than that, and among the general population the figure would probably be even higher (the public are much more nervous about the virus than this forum).

 

[Bletchleyite]

General consensus amongst those who the Government should be listening to is the level of cases is now so high test, track and trace is a waste of time.

Can you be more specific on;
1. Who these people are;
2. Why the Government should be listening to them;
3. Why they believe this to be the case?

As that unreferenced sentence does not on its own carry any credibility at all.

To me personally, test, track and trace always has value because it will prevent some cases.