ERTMS and metrification on heritage lines

[Proud Salopian]

What is the official/legal position for Britain's various heritage railways with regards to metrification and ERTMS? Do the European directives on these matters (which apply to the Network Rail network) also apply to the heritage lines?

I'm not talking about heritage trains running on the NR network, but about the running of trains, signalling, etc, on heritage lines such as the SVR and WSR etc.

Surely the heritage lines aren't expected to change their signalling to ERTMS? Or abandon imperial measurements on the lineside?

 

[transmanche]

Surely the heritage lines aren't expected to change their signalling to ERTMS? Or abandon imperial measurements on the lineside?

I thought ERTMS was all about enabling interoperability for connected networks. If the heritage line is not 'connected' to the network (i.e. there isn't going to be any through running) then I can't see any cause for concern.

 

[Proud Salopian]

It shouldn't but I am after the official line on this.

As for connected heritage lines - many are of course, including the Severn Valley and West Somerset.

 

[E&W Lucas]

What is the official/legal position for Britain's various heritage railways with regards to metrification and ERTMS? Do the European directives on these matters (which apply to the Network Rail network) also apply to the heritage lines?

I'm not talking about heritage trains running on the NR network, but about the running of trains, signalling, etc, on heritage lines such as the SVR and WSR etc.

Surely the heritage lines aren't expected to change their signalling to ERTMS? Or abandon imperial measurements on the lineside?

Must be a Metric Troll!! :roll:

 

[Proud Salopian]

Must be a Metric Troll!! :roll:

Seriously?

I'm asking a (fairly) straight-forward question which I can't seem to find the answer to searching on Google.

I'm not giving or asking for general opinions on the matter of metrification, just want to know what the position is with regards to our heritage railways. I would have thought heritage railway companies have looked into the matter to make sure they know what their position is going forward... I would have thought (unless the answer is obviously "no it doesn't affect them at all" which to me isn't that obvious). But I can't find much either way with a search on Google.

Again... seriously?? What's with this "Troll!!!" nonsense? Actually, don't bother replying to that - I don't want to derail the thread. I just thought a forum about the railways would be a sensible place to try to get a technical answer to an important question. I'm not bothered about which way the answer is, I'm just curious.

 

[E&W Lucas]

ERTMS - they are PRIVATE RAILWAYS. No requirement for interoperability.

A more interesting discussion, would be will ERTMS mark the end of mainline steam operation over affected routes?

Engineering wise, metric equivalents don't work. I know of one major railway that experienced a dramatic rise in the number of burst water gauge glasses. Turned out the glasses were metric. Simply not precise enough.

 

[Proud Salopian]

ERTMS - they are PRIVATE RAILWAYS. No requirement for interoperability.

Okay, thanks for that (perhaps ignore my previous rant..!). I am still a little curious how the notion of which railways are "private" and which are "public" is worked out. What if the Network Rail network was split up into many private railways? What if a "private railway" started running "public" trains (surely quite a few arguably do?) - and as has been raised a few posts before, what about those heritage lines that are connected but only run a few charters a year from the national network onto their line? Do they have to go ERTMS?

 

[Chris125]

and as has been raised a few posts before, what about those heritage lines that are connected but only run a few charters a year from the national network onto their line? Do they have to go ERTMS?

No, in the same way that heritage lines do not need TPWS or GSM-R.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No, in the same way that heritage lines do not need TPWS or GSM-R.

What about on ones that have connections to the main line (mainly the last signal on the preserved railway's side and the last signal on NR's side?

 

[edwin_m]

It will be a question of implementing a suitable safe system of work via the Safety Management System. Working out how to fit ERTMS to a steam loco is the difficult bit - once this is done the ERTMS cab display will show the speed in km/h whenever it is active. It's probably just as simple as keeping the traditional speedo for use on the heritage lines, and possibly covering it over when running under ERTMS.

 

[DarloRich]

What is the official/legal position for Britain's various heritage railways with regards to metrification and ERTMS? Do the European directives on these matters (which apply to the Network Rail network) also apply to the heritage lines?

I'm not talking about heritage trains running on the NR network, but about the running of trains, signalling, etc, on heritage lines such as the SVR and WSR etc.

Surely the heritage lines aren't expected to change their signalling to ERTMS? Or abandon imperial measurements on the lineside?

Of course not! :roll: They are not part of the national network.

I assume the connection between the real railway and the preserved railway will be managed something like the connection now between the Cambrian line and the rest of the Network. Any cross running will need a suitably fitted locomotive but there should be no reason why the required equipment can’t be fitted to a steam locomotive, despite what various wibblers in the railway media have to say.
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What about on ones that have connections to the main line (mainly the last signal on the preserved railway's side and the last signal on NR's side?

There is a video on the net somewhere about operations on the Cambrian line. It explains the way this works. It shouldn’t be a problem, other than having a suitably equipped train and trained driver

 

[Spagnoletti]

There is a section called 'Exclusion from Mainline Railway Requirements' on the ORR site: http://orr.gov.uk/what-and-how-we-r...exclusions-from-mainline-railway-requirements

If you check the general notes about ROGS and what European legislation it implements I'd say that goes a good way to answering the original question, in that heritage and other railways come under the exclusion so aren't held to the same safety standards under which more modern systems would be mandatory.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Engineering wise, metric equivalents don't work. I know of one major railway that experienced a dramatic rise in the number of burst water gauge glasses. Turned out the glasses were metric. Simply not precise enough.

The National Network is metric, for pretty much everything except speed and mileage. Instead of 4' 8.5" gauge track, it's 1435mm. Instead of 113lb/yd rail, it's 56kg/m. No massive issues with these metric equivalents so far.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I was thinking particularly with reference to antique traction. Metric vice Whitworth, etc.