ERTMS Live and working

[merlodlliw]

Do you mean the infrastructure that is requires for the hourly service is not up to the standard required? The hourly service to be scrapped altogether, rather than more delay? This would be devastating for me as I have been on hold for a drivers position with ATW for the last year that was subject to the hourly service coming in. The waiting has been extremely painful and frustrating, and it has come to this after all these false promises

I hope for your sake, the statement will be positive,but to add extra trains on the Cambrian the funding will have to come from WAG, ATW will not finance it,
we will have to wait for the statement next Wednesday, As Gareth says WAG are looking for savings ,not cost, again in your instance I hope I am wrong.

 

[Beveridges]

Why have the WAG been promising to fund the hourly service even as late as August 2010 I read them promising it, only to pull out now that the ERTMS is finally working? Surely they have known for a long time how much spending cuts they have had to make, so why change the decision on it now?
Also surely too much money has been spent already on capacity improvements (£59 million on ERTMS signalling, £8 million on infrastructure upgrades) all to be wasted because the WAG isnt paying the remaining £6 million required for the hourly service to take place?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why have the WAG been promising to fund the hourly service even as late as August 2010 I read them promising it, only to pull out now that the ERTMS is finally working? Surely they have known for a long time how much spending cuts they have had to make, so why change the decision on it now?
Also surely too much money has been spent already on capacity improvements (£59 million on ERTMS signalling, £8 million on infrastructure upgrades) all to be wasted because the WAG isnt paying the remaining £6 million required for the hourly service to take place?

They've not said they are its just speculation based on likely outcomes of the WAG budget settlement announced on the 17th. In fact a WAG Minister verbally promised an hourly service in 2001 (Sue Essex) I was within earshot.

A lot of the WAG budget cuts will be capital transport projects - the trouble is the hysteria amongst Stakeholders and politicians that will caused by postponing road schemes will drown out any rational debate. The completion of the dualling of the Head of the Valleys road A465 between Neath and Abergavenny is the priority project for WAG and Valleys stakeholders and the big spender. The estimated cost to complete the two 6 mile stretches left are £600 million. I think £50 million a mile to put an extra lane is pretty poor value for money as most of the stretches already have a third crawler lane. How this could survive without binning other stuff I cant see. I worry the Chester to Wrexham and Gowerton redoublings will be sacrificed to keep this cuckoo fed.

As Beveridges says with the money spent on the Cambrian already the remaining bit of revenue expenditure needed is comparatively good value for money as it completes a scheme thats had money chucked at it already.

 

[merlodlliw]

I agree with Gareth, After deep questioning of the Minister on what is the most strategic single line in North Wales, we get no response, I am sure the double track money which had a sell by date, will now be used for roads, everyone as gone silent, the local A,Ms part of the collation govt in Cardiff have been briefed already, all these funding streams have final dates attached.

The ertms delays, two years late & the Net Rail double track a year late already
with costings have given WAG an excuse to plunder the money for other areas which are more Politically sensitive for votes.

 

[ERTMS DRIVER]

I can confirm from my inside source that 90% of the equipment for the ERTMS is all ready in place for the rest of the Cambrian and they are looking at February to commission the whole system. As to the hourly service we will have to see as the infrastructure will be in place and ready.

 

[RichW1]

are traditional light signals used along with ertms as there will be an overlap period from what I gather in a national context?

 

[The Planner]

There are no line side signals on the Cambrian installation.

 

[RichW1]

so any train not fitted with ertms will not be able to run on the cambrian line?

 

[Gareth Marston]

so any train not fitted with ertms will not be able to run on the cambrian line?

Not with permission under signaling control anyway.

 

[ERTMS DRIVER]

so any train not fitted with ertms will not be able to run on the cambrian line?

Any train not ERTMS fitted will not be allowed on the Cambrain unless it is hauled by a fitted unit or loco (the 97's at Shrewsbury). As for working of permanentway working on site I dont know how that will work but tampers will be hauled to site.

 

[brianthegiant]

£600 Million on 2 miles of road widening, but not £6 million for cambrian hourly service - unbelievable, am encouraging all friends resident in Wales to write to their AMs about this.

 

[starrymarkb]

are traditional light signals used along with ertms as there will be an overlap period from what I gather in a national context?

They can be (although not on the cambrian which used RETB radio/cab signalling prior to ETCS) - this is known as ETCS-Level I. The ETCS gear works like ATP.

The Cambrian is Level-II which the movement authority is transmitted to the displays in the cab by GSM-R radio

Finally there is Level-III witch is moving block...

 

[merlodlliw]

£600 Million on 2 miles of road widening, but not £6 million for cambrian hourly service - unbelievable, am encouraging all friends resident in Wales to write to their AMs about this.

we will know tomorrow,but all govt A.Ms(lab & plaid) have been briefed and are silent.

Whatever the outcome, this devolved govt will put political idiology first,it is obvious the roads will be given priority,as more voters use them than rail in Wales,

 

[Beveridges]

As my future job depends entirely on the hourly service coming in, the stress is killing me waiting for this on Wednesday. It's been a very painful and hard year, stuck in an absolutely awful terrible job on permenant nights and bad pay, and have just been waiting for this Drivers job that ATW have had me on hold for which has got delayed month after month. The devestation if this doesn't happen (after hanging on this long hoping it will happen) will be beyond what words can describe. ATW should not put people through a tough selection process and promise people jobs if there is not much chance they will even exist after it all.

 

[brianthegiant]

the draft budget pulished yesterday, includes a cut in the transport budget, but doesn't specify the details, of where those cuts will be made. @merodlliw - any idea when the detail will be published?
http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-ho...nts-doc-laid.htm?act=dis&id=203100&ds=11/2010

I am asking contacts in the mid wales area to contact AMs, especially company directors. Also emailed Cambrian news,
@Gareth - any chance to get a summary of the situation on sarpa.info would be found by reporters etc googling the issue.

 

[merlodlliw]

the draft budget pulished yesterday, includes a cut in the transport budget, but doesn't specify the details, of where those cuts will be made. @merodlliw - any idea when the detail will be published?
http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-ho...nts-doc-laid.htm?act=dis&id=203100&ds=11/2010

I am asking contacts in the mid wales area to contact AMs, especially company directors. Also emailed Cambrian news,
@Gareth - any chance to get a summary of the situation on sarpa.info would be found by reporters etc googling the issue.

Gareth put this up on the other thread.
Theirs 99 listed schemes in the national transport plan. Around 36 of which are capital spend the 2 merodlliw mention plus station improvements are the only rail capital ones - the stations get EU money so are save. You can do your own maths as to what should happen by law of averages!

As soon as as info appears, I will let you know, however all Plaid A.Ms in the area already know, no Lab A.Ms in the area(I think), its not a done deal yet & is up for discussion & agreement, if the usual applies Lab A,Ms will toe the party whip in North East Wales, If you want the hourly service,canvass A.Ms heavily, it as to be sorted & agreed by all parties within 18 weeks before a new Welsh Govt is elected in May 2011, out of that 18 weeks take five or six weeks out for holiday recess, so there's little time left. Listed A.Ms (Con & Lib) are better at rocking the boat with questions & getting replies, Mark Isherwood Listed Nth Wales A.M.(Con) is an example of how it should be done, he never fails us, up here. Write & involve the new tory M.P for Montgomery, much of the Cambrian is in his patch.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Gareth put this up on the other thread.
Theirs 99 listed schemes in the national transport plan. Around 36 of which are capital spend the 2 merodlliw mention plus station improvements are the only rail capital ones - the stations get EU money so are save. You can do your own maths as to what should happen by law of averages!

As soon as as info appears, I will let you know, however all Plaid A.Ms in the area already know, no Lab A.Ms in the area(I think), its not a done deal yet & is up for discussion & agreement, if the usual applies Lab A,Ms will toe the party whip in North East Wales, If you want the hourly service,canvass A.Ms heavily, it as to be sorted & agreed by all parties within 18 weeks before a new Welsh Govt is elected in May 2011, out of that 18 weeks take five or six weeks out for holiday recess, so there's little time left. Listed A.Ms (Con & Lib) are better at rocking the boat with questions & getting replies, Mark Isherwood Listed Nth Wales A.M.(Con) is an example of how it should be done, he never fails us, up here. Write & involve the new tory M.P for Montgomery, much of the Cambrian is in his patch.

My sources say that it could be January before we get any public detail on what DE&T (the WAG Dept responsible for transport) will cut or postpone. So you have until Xmas to lobby in reality, the sooner the better. Asking for some relatively small amounts of revenue funding to finish off something that's already had its capital spend will be easier to argue than a large chunk of infrastructure £'s. WAG are looking to get another 400 or so voluntary leavers by the new year in addition to the 350 that went in September.

 

[merlodlliw]

Good Evening.

recieved this from my North Wales listed A.M, He does not cover Powys,for the Cambrian,write to yours & mention my letter & response. I might add not all A.Ms are as quick to respond and get on with constituents concerns.





-----Original Message-----
From: Isherwood, Mark (Assembly Member) <[email protected]>

CC: Jones, Toby (AM Support Staff, Mark Isherwood) <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:31
Subject: RE: WAG cuts

Bob,

We will submit a written question to the Minister and see what results!

Mark

From:
Sent: 18 November 2010 11:15
To: Isherwood, Mark (Assembly Member)

Subject: WAG cuts


I note the wag budget cuts on transport, the Wrexham,/Saltney & Gowerton are the only two rail Capital Spends in the list, both (double tracks), any news if they are to be scrapped? Any news would be welcome.

Bob

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email

 

[brianthegiant]

a new article in railway people re Cambrian ERTMS says:

"The line's Arriva Trains Wales passenger fleet consists of 24 Class 158 two-car DMUs. All these are now fitted with ETCS and GSM-R cab equipment. This has been quite a challenge as the cab of a 158 is small and the RETB equipment has to be maintained in service for the time being. Retro-fitting rolling stock is an expensive business and it has cost around £350,000 to equip each two-car unit. The fleet becomes captive to the line and it is unlikely that any other units will be deployed until new trains are purchased. Since the latest European Directive requires all new rolling stock to be fitted, equipping the trains will not be a future problem"
from
http://www.railwaypeople.com/rail-news-articles/cambrian-trail-signals-new-era-1989.html

hmm, If I've understood correctly from threads on here and reporting on sarpa.info the additional hourly service would require additional stock to be found. I wonder how the £350k/unit ertms upgrade cost compares with the price differential between old & new stock?

 

[Gareth Marston]

a new article in railway people re Cambrian

hmm, If I've understood correctly from threads on here and reporting on sarpa.info the additional hourly service would require additional stock to be found. I wonder how the £350k/unit ertms upgrade cost compares with the price differential between old & new stock?

The 2 x 158's currently doing Maesteg to Cheltenham will be freed up by ATW getting 4 x 150's back from FGW when the 172's are delivered to London Midland thus sending 150's to FGW etc.

 

[merlodlliw]

Out of interest, say the hourly service goes ahead, when is another matter.

1.How many extra units would be required to run this hourly service,which I presume would not be all day, so say between 0900 & 1900, ex Shrewsbury
6 extras on a journey of two hours.

2.With the problematical Sunday working of Drivers, do you see the cash strapped Counties of Salop/Powys/Ceridigion funding extra services on Sunday as ATW will not pay for any extra overheads. Sunday appears more busy than mid week.

3.What happens at Mach for the run to Pwllheli, as any talk & it is only talk about the new hourly service only running to Aberystwyth.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Out of interest, say the hourly service goes ahead, when is another matter.

1.How many extra units would be required to run this hourly service,which I presume would not be all day, so say between 0900 & 1900, ex Shrewsbury
6 extras on a journey of two hours.

2.With the problematical Sunday working of Drivers, do you see the cash strapped Counties of Salop/Powys/Ceridigion funding extra services on Sunday as ATW will not pay for any extra overheads. Sunday appears more busy than mid week.

3.What happens at Mach for the run to Pwllheli, as any talk & it is only talk about the new hourly service only running to Aberystwyth.

1,- Two Units between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury (cross at Talerddig with each other Dovey Junction and Welhspool Dynamic with current BHH INTL-Aber trains)- funnily the same number as ATW needed for their failed London ORCATS raid!

2 - ATW have paid for extra Salop-Wolves on Sunday themselves so not beyond realms that they might look further west on one of busiest days.

3- Stays same as now a portion off BHM INTL trains roughly every 2 hrs in middle of day. Though the connections to/from Aberystwyth and the Coast dramatically improve.

 

[The Planner]

Theres still an element of speculation there, the timetable has always been a draft and ATW havent bid for anything.

 

[merlodlliw]

1,- Two Units between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury (cross at Talerddig with each other Dovey Junction and Welhspool Dynamic with current BHH INTL-Aber trains)- funnily the same number as ATW needed for their failed London ORCATS raid!

2 - ATW have paid for extra Salop-Wolves on Sunday themselves so not beyond realms that they might look further west on one of busiest days.

3- Stays same as now a portion off BHM INTL trains roughly every 2 hrs in middle of day. Though the connections to/from Aberystwyth and the Coast dramatically improve.

So you think two ex DMUs could make it hourly? as for Sunday on the Cambrian, no extra funds from ATW according to Ben Davies for any of the extra runs on any day.

Ah yes the failed London bid,seems like an eternity ago,one or two at Pentaeith are still recovering from"an overdose of fudge"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Theres still an element of speculation there, the timetable has always been a draft and ATW havent bid for anything.

And until the WAG money is on the table, it will remain a draft. Any pro supporters have only got a short period left to lobby before the WAG A.Ms recess for a month at the end of next week.

 

[The Planner]

Ah yes the failed London bid,seems like an eternity ago,one or two at Pentaeith are still recovering from"an overdose of fudge"

I still think that will rise like a phoenix from the flames at some point, it may be dressed differently, but it'll come back.

 

[merlodlliw]

I still think that will rise like a phoenix from the flames at some point, it may be dressed differently, but it'll come back.

Well Planner you were amazed when it was thrown out by the ORR, several of us were not, with the W.S/Chiltern/ATW merger by DB anything can happen, but I personally don't see another open access bid Aber to London with a 158.
Senior staff at ATW have given up on the idea according to the presentation given to us last Month.

 

[brianthegiant]

And until the WAG money is on the table, it will remain a draft. Any pro supporters have only got a short period left to lobby before the WAG A.Ms recess for a month at the end of next week.

I've managed to mobilise a few emails from residents and business leaders in Mach & Aber, to AMs, MPs and the First Minister for Economy & transport as appropriate .

for anyone else who would like to contact WAG about the service, AM details are here:
http://www.assemblywales.org/memhome/member-search.htm

I understand that Mick Bates isn't very responsive at present, but you can also lobby Ieuan Wyn Jones the WAG Minister for Economy and Transport directly:
[email protected]

The standard response coming back from the 1st Minister so far is "This is receiving attention and we aim to respond within 17 working days 16/12/2010."

 

[merlodlliw]

I've managed to mobilise a few emails from residents and business leaders in Mach & Aber, to AMs, MPs and the First Minister for Economy & transport as appropriate .

for anyone else who would like to contact WAG about the service, AM details are here:
http://www.assemblywales.org/memhome/member-search.htm

I understand that Mick Bates isn't very responsive at present, but you can also lobby Ieuan Wyn Jones the WAG Minister for Economy and Transport directly:
[email protected]

The standard response coming back from the 1st Minister so far is "This is receiving attention and we aim to respond within 17 working days 16/12/2010."

|Good, Forget Nick Bates he as brought on his own agenda & is in disgrace at this time, Nicholas Bourne is a listed member and should be active with no axe to grind, The new MP for Montgomery is sympathetic.

We got the Wrexham double track back on the agenda by campaigning,whatever you do copy to all A.M.s in the area,but Plaid & Labour elected first past the post will usually toe the party line.

More action taken the better, remember every letter or e mail counts, and ask for a reply, get Nick Bourne to put a written question direct, that way Ieuan can not fob an A.M. question off. And write a letter to the press.

Good luck

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hourly Cambrian

If I had £10 for every letter, phone call, e mail or conversation I've had on the subject since its official launch in Dec 99!

Important for railway folk out there to realize that WAG will be funding this out of Revenue budgets which have not taken anywhere near the hit Capital budgets have. Westminster has set how much capital and revenue WAG shall have, its up to WAG to decide on priority's within headings. They still have to spend the revenue on something so its well worth lobbying as was due "by 2011" in national transport plan so is high up list.

 

[merlodlliw]

Hourly Cambrian

If I had £10 for every letter, phone call, e mail or conversation I've had on the subject since its official launch in Dec 99!

Important for railway folk out there to realize that WAG will be funding this out of Revenue budgets which have not taken anywhere near the hit Capital budgets have. Westminster has set how much capital and revenue WAG shall have, its up to WAG to decide on priority's within headings. They still have to spend the revenue on something so its well worth lobbying as was due "by 2011" in national transport plan so is high up list.

Fully agree with Gareth, I know SARPA have lobbied, but the more individuals who write (e mail) in the better, some one please do get a Listed A.M. to put in a written question, that way the Minister must respond.
If Nick Bates elected Consituency A.M gets wind of Nick Bour ne getting involved(leader of opposition), this should arouse him, from his slumbers.
Lobbing does work, we have proved this on many occasions up here, If I lived in the area, I too would get involved. And you only have a week
left.