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ETCS Roll-Out on ECML South Confirmed

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BoroAndy

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I apologise if I am being a bit thick here, but, if the lights on sticks are removed, what is the fixed point of reference for the signalling system, I. E. If a red aspect is displayed in the cab, how does the driver know where to stop before TPWS has a paddy and a SPAD occurs
 
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XAM2175

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I apologise if I am being a bit thick here, but, if the lights on sticks are removed, what is the fixed point of reference for the signalling system, I. E. If a red aspect is displayed in the cab, how does the driver know where to stop before TPWS has a paddy and a SPAD occurs
The driver won't see a red aspect, they'll see a display of the target speed (0 for stop) and the distance remaining in which they need to reduce speed to be below the target.

In this illustration of a ETCS Driver-Machine Interface (DMI), which replaces the traditional speedometer, the train is currently at 158 km/h and has 1320 m to reach the target speed of 40 km/h:

458px-DMI_Speedinfo159-158IndS.svg.png

(via Wikimedia Commons)

If the driver does not control their speed such that it conforms with the braking curve needed to stop the train within the permitted distance, or fails to actually stop even after braking appropriately, the ETCS controller will intervene with a penalty brake application. There will be no TPWS, because this part of ETCS replaces both the TPWS trainstop and OSS functions.

The driver will still, however, have an external point of reference when driving on fixed-block ETCS lines because the signals will be replaced with reflectorised signs referred to as block markers. For example, this one at the west end of Machynlleth station, on the ETCS-signalled Cambrian lines, with the arrow pointing at the line to which it refers: https://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_cabsig1.html#pic_blockm2
 

BoroAndy

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Thankyou, that explains a lot, but seems to be de-skilling drivers to an extent, whereby the speed controlling could be done by computer.
 

D365

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Thankyou, that explains a lot, but seems to be de-skilling drivers to an extent, whereby the speed controlling could be done by computer.
onboard ETCS is nowhere near capable of driving a train. It doesn’t have the power to apply traction, and the only braking capability will be full service and emergency.

Above all, there’s no chance of seeing Tornado drive itself anytime soon ;)
 

Bald Rick

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onboard ETCS is nowhere near capable of driving a train. It doesn’t have the power to apply traction, and the only braking capability will be full service and emergency.

It’s pretty damned close though. The ‘add on’ for ATO on the 700s is fairly straightforward.
 

D365

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It’s pretty damned close though. The ‘add on’ for ATO on the 700s is fairly straightforward.
True, but automating a Class 37 (for example) would be a whole different kettle of fish!
 

XAM2175

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Thankyou, that explains a lot, but seems to be de-skilling drivers to an extent, whereby the speed controlling could be done by computer.
onboard ETCS is nowhere near capable of driving a train. It doesn’t have the power to apply traction, and the only braking capability will be full service and emergency.
It’s pretty damned close though. The ‘add on’ for ATO on the 700s is fairly straightforward.
Yes, I expect there'll be some debate on this front as the rollout progresses. On stock with electronically-controlled traction and braking it is possible for ETCS to be 'upgraded' to supervised automatic operation without huge bother, as Bald Rick notes.

Indeed one of the predecessor systems by which ETCS has been significantly influenced, Germany's LZB, has included a system known as AFB (Automatische Fahr- und Bremssteuerung, automatic driving and braking control) since the late 1980s. This is capable of adjusting traction and both rheo/regen and friction braking to maintain a target speed, and will automatically reduce speed in accordance with the braking curve when under LZB control. The driver is still responsible for effecting speed increases, and for fully stopping the train in the correct position - so it is perhaps closer in current understanding to an advanced cruise-control system then it is to full ATO.

I understand that the French TVM system - which also strongly influenced ETCS - includes a similar feature, but I'm far less familiar with its operation.

Actually using these features is, however, entirely up to each operator. With none of the automation engaged, or when driving stock that doesn't have it installed, driving under ETCS control isn't much different from driving under either of the BR ATP systems - the driver still has full control of the train, but their adherence to the current maximum permitted speed and their braking for speed reductions, turnouts, and adverse aspects is continuously monitored.

One element that might have bigger implications for the driver's grade - though not necessarily bad ones, depending on your perspective - is that ETCS effectively converts British lines on which it's installed from the route signalling principle to that of speed signalling, whereby the signalling system primarily informs of the driver of the speed at which they're permitted to proceed rather than the route that is set for them. Since the driver therefore is constantly informed of the current maximum speed, and is informed in advance of any planned speed reduction regardless of reason, it is hypothetically possible that current standards for route learning could be adjusted to allow for faster learning and longer retention as drivers will have a somewhat reduced need for driving by memory (though obviously they will still need to learn and recall things like braking points and platform stopping positions, and emergency procedures, etc etc).
 

MarkyT

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True, but automating a Class 37 (for example) would be a whole different kettle of fish!
Even adding ETCS on board a 60s era loco may be a challenge. I expect on older traction, the computer system and driver interface added to calculate and display the safe safe speed envelope from movement authority and infrastruture data will not have all the sophisticated interventions available that more modern trains are capable of, hence a detected overspeed at any time may result in a full brake application to stop rather than a speed correction.
 

XAM2175

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I expect on older traction, the computer system and driver interface added to calculate and display the safe safe speed envelope from movement authority and infrastruture data will not have all the sophisticated interventions available that more modern trains are capable of, hence a detected overspeed at any time may result in a full brake application to stop rather than a speed correction.
There should still be a period of warning to the driver, but yes, if the controller cannot make a gentle intervention like simply cutting traction power and/or applying step-one braking the only option remaining will be a full emergency brake demand (in the same manner an AWS or TPWS brake demand would be made).
 

Mcq

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I note the comment re Tornado and understand that it has ETCS fitted - so presumably will be able to work from Kings Cross when the change over happens. I also understand that there is a class 55 near completion - is there a forum for ETCS conversions to mainline steam locos anywhere?
Or could someone who knows about this start one perhaps?
I say this as I had a wonderful day with RTC, hauled to Weymouth and back by Bahama which behaved faultlessly - unfortunately its 'must have' diesel broke down on the way back and we had to abort at Clapham Junction as there are no Thunderbirds to retrieve from Victoria!
Sorry a bit off topic the last bit.
Thanks.
 

XAM2175

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I note the comment re Tornado and understand that it has ETCS fitted - so presumably will be able to work from Kings Cross when the change over happens. I also understand that there is a class 55 near completion - is there a forum for ETCS conversions to mainline steam locos anywhere?
Tornado is having it fitted as part of its current overhaul, with the latest update from the Trust on 28 July reading:
... Tornado will undertake testing at the Great Central Railway in early January, having been fully fitted with ETCS equipment, before undertaking mainline tests. In February the locomotive will be at the Network Rail test centre for ETCS dynamic testing before then beginning a full year of rail tour duties. ...
There will be additional prototype installations developed for both a Deltic and a Black 5, but I'm not aware of there being information regarding the specific locos chosen.

It's worth noting that the initial ETCS rollout on the ECML will be in the form of an 'overlay', meaning that the conventional signals will be remain in place for trains not running under ETCS. It's only later in the scheme when the signals are removed that ETCS will become necessary for working over the line.
 

Dave S 56F

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Tornado is having it fitted as part of its current overhaul, with the latest update from the Trust on 28 July reading:

There will be additional prototype installations developed for both a Deltic and a Black 5, but I'm not aware of there being information regarding the specific locos chosen.

It's worth noting that the initial ETCS rollout on the ECML will be in the form of an 'overlay', meaning that the conventional signals will be remain in place for trains not running under ETCS. It's only later in the scheme when the signals are removed that ETCS will become necessary for working over the line.
As far as I'm aware 44932 is David smiths black 5 at Carnforth is going to be the 5mt to have E.C.T.S. fitted for the cambrian route and maybe for kings X to Peterbrough there's a thread about it on national preservation forums
 

43066

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Tornado is having it fitted as part of its current overhaul, with the latest update from the Trust on 28 July reading:

There will be additional prototype installations developed for both a Deltic and a Black 5, but I'm not aware of there being information regarding the specific locos chosen.

It's worth noting that the initial ETCS rollout on the ECML will be in the form of an 'overlay', meaning that the conventional signals will be remain in place for trains not running under ETCS. It's only later in the scheme when the signals are removed that ETCS will become necessary for working over the line.

That’s great news, as there was speculation that ETCS would mean the end of heritage rail operations on the mainline.
 

XAM2175

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As far as I'm aware 44932 is David smiths black 5 at Carnforth is going to be the 5mt to have E.C.T.S. fitted for the cambrian route and maybe for kings X to Peterbrough there's a thread about it on national preservation forums
Ah, splendid.

That’s great news, as there was speculation that ETCS would mean the end of heritage rail operations on the mainline.
Yes, some of the early reporting on the programme went a bit heavy on the signals-away part and somewhat overlooked the long road leading to that point, and also NR's plans for facilitating ETCS being fitted to heritage stock.

Obviously there are going to be various locos and units that will see their mainline reach eroded as the signals-away rollout continues, and/or if there is a move to fully replace track circuits and axle counters with onboard-train proving of consist integrity, and this erosion will be unfortunate, but neither of these things are happening anytime soon and by the time they do come around the industry will have a lot more experience with retrofitting heritage trains to run under ETCS.
 

Class 170101

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The industry needs to get smarter at what access its taking vs providing viable weekend services where revenue generation opportunities are at their highest.
Yes
Red zone working and line blockages are effectively banned and you have adjacent line open issues as well. Weekend revenue totals about the same as a Monday into Tuesday morning currently.
Well both need to be improved, ie Monday and Tuesday as well as weekends in terms of revenue.

In terms of operating this signalling on the ECML would it allow the centre pair of lines to in effect become bi-directional without handsignallers, pilotman etc?
 

The Planner

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Yes

Well both need to be improved, ie Monday and Tuesday as well as weekends in terms of revenue.

In terms of operating this signalling on the ECML would it allow the centre pair of lines to in effect become bi-directional without handsignallers, pilotman etc?
If its designed to but it still doesnt get rid of the ALO issues, might be possible, might not.
 

Jonny

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That’s great news, as there was speculation that ETCS would mean the end of heritage rail operations on the mainline.

The complication is that ETCS would have to run in parallel to AWS/TPWS so you would have to fit in two lots of equipment.
 

Tim M

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In terms of operating this signalling on the ECML would it allow the centre pair of lines to in effect become bi-directional without handsignallers, pilotman etc?
I find it strange that the U.K. hasn’t installed bi-directional signalling as standard, something that appears to be the case in Germany, Switzerland and probably other countries, I suspect the long arm of the Treasury in cost cutting is the reason. But no matter.

With ETCS the situation should be very different. Stop positions are marked by simple reflective marker boards, cheap to manufacture and install. Compare this lights on sticks, particularly if they have to be mounted on gantries (think £250k and that was a figure from 10 years ago), plus all the trackside infrastructure to control and monitor the lights on sticks, oh and possessions etc..

There is a downside in the extra data required in the ETCS Block Processor for bi-direction operation. It should however be possible to generate such data direct from a CAD produced track plan with all the geometry embedded, testing would follow but again some automation should be/is possible. The same applies to extra data for additional routes in the interlocking and at the Control Centre.

For all I know this is already being done, if so great, if not the industry needs to get its act together. I was extracting data from CAD drawings about 40 years ago, it isn’t rocket science.
 
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D365

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That’s great news, as there was speculation that ETCS would mean the end of heritage rail operations on the mainline.
Not at all - there's a discussion here about the Network Rail/Thales/Atkins heritage fitments.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The complication is that ETCS would have to run in parallel to AWS/TPWS so you would have to fit in two lots of equipment.
That's where Atkins is responsible for integrating the ETCS and TPWS Mk4.
 
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