EU, Immigration and UKIP

[EM2]

You may be interested to find that the bulk of immigration to Kent (as an example) is actually internal migration. as shown on page 9 of this report from Kent County Council http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/13829/Migration-indicators-bulletin.pdf

The flow of internal migrants is considerably higher than the flow of
international migrants not only for the county as a whole but also for each
Kent district.

Over the past eleven years the average annual number of people moving into
Kent from elsewhere in the UK is 74,000 whilst the average number of people
who leave Kent each year is 67,700.

Between 2011and 2012 Kent saw the highest number of movements of
internal migrants with 78,900 people moving into Kent and 68,200 people
moving out.

Overall, since 2001 there has been a steady increase in the number of
internal migrants moving to and from Kent.

What is UKIP going to do about that?

 

[St Rollox]

Exactly, there are people in full time work who are struggling to survive and thank goodness there are food banks or people would have to steal or starve. The cost of renting property has gone through the roof due to the ever increasing demand and many such properties are riddled with damp, landlords know somebody will take it so why bother doing anything about it? For many people it's a choice of paying way over the odds for substandard accommodation or sleep on the streets. The south east is grossly overpopulated and as I said before UKIP are the only ones doing something about it.

Indirectly Ukip will help the break up of the UK.
The more success Ukip have the more votes the SNP will harvest.
Good luck with that one.

 

[TheJRB]

You may be interested to find that the bulk of immigration to Kent (as an example) is actually internal migration. as shown on page 9 of this report from Kent County Council http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/13829/Migration-indicators-bulletin.pdf


What is UKIP going to do about that?

Indeed my family is one of those who have moved down into deepest Kent from London. There are plenty of others who have done exactly the same thing because of either finance or parents who are looking for somewhere better suited for families.

 

[21C101]

You may be interested to find that the bulk of immigration to Kent (as an example) is actually internal migration. as shown on page 9 of this report from Kent County Council http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/13829/Migration-indicators-bulletin.pdf


What is UKIP going to do about that?

Nothing, they are the core of the UKIP voters who having left London because they didn't want to be in a mixed ethnic area (which good parts of Southeast London have become over the last 30 years), don't want history repeating itself.

The USA call it white flight

 

[St Rollox]

Nothing, they are the core of the UKIP voters who having left London because they didn't want to be in a mixed ethnic area (which good parts of Southeast London have become over the last 30 years), don't want history repeating itself.

The USA call it white flight

People with a few extra pennies have been moving out of cities for decades.
A side effect of it has been the re-birth of parts of the inner cities.
And that can only be a good thing.

 

[EM2]

Nothing, they are the core of the UKIP voters who having left London because they didn't want to be in a mixed ethnic area (which good parts of Southeast London have become over the last 30 years), don't want history repeating itself.

The USA call it white flight

So, let's look at the 'fact' posted by Antman:

The south east is grossly overpopulated and as I said before UKIP are the only ones doing something about it.

The majority of migration is not from outside the UK, which is what UKIP insist they will restrict. Seeing as they can't limit migration from other areas of the UK, what is the 'something' that they are doing about it?

 

[Antman]

So, let's look at the 'fact' posted by Antman:

The majority of migration is not from outside the UK, which is what UKIP insist they will restrict. Seeing as they can't limit migration from other areas of the UK, what is the 'something' that they are doing about it?

Funny that so many of them have foreign accents

 

[21C101]

So, let's look at the 'fact' posted by Antman:

The majority of migration is not from outside the UK, which is what UKIP insist they will restrict. Seeing as they can't limit migration from other areas of the UK, what is the 'something' that they are doing about it?

It is fairly obvious that the process is like those hanging balls. Drop one on the end and the ones in the middle next to it don't move and one comes flying off the other end.

We are getting to a situation England is composed of a large area of land comprising small to medium settlements where the population is >95% ethnic British english speaking and a small number of very large cities where the majority of the population is not ethnic British.

That strikes me as a very dangerous situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People with a few extra pennies have been moving out of cities for decades.
A side effect of it has been the re-birth of parts of the inner cities.
And that can only be a good thing.

In a trickle it has always happened, usually replaced by the children of others who live in the area.

However, in Barking and Dagenham, for example, the white British population dropped by over 30% in 10 years between 2001-2011. That is white flight and not a positive phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Barking_and_Dagenham

 

[Butts]

It is fairly obvious that the process is like those hanging balls. Drop one on the end and the ones in the middle next to it don't move and one comes flying off the other end.

We are getting to a situation England is composed of a large area of land comprising small to medium settlements where the population is >95% ethnic British english speaking and a small number of very large cities where the majority of the population is not ethnic British.

That strikes me as a very dangerous situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In a trickle it has always happened, usually replaced by the children of others who live in the area.

However, in Barking and Dagenham, for example, the white British population dropped by over 30% in 10 years between 2001-2011. That is white flight and not a positive phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Barking_and_Dagenham

Are us Jock's, Paddy's and Taff's still welcome

 

[EM2]

However, in Barking and Dagenham, for example, the white British population dropped by over 30% in 10 years between 2001-2011. That is white flight and not a positive phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Barking_and_Dagenham

Why is it not positive? My borough Newham has an even smaller proportion of its population being white British. There's no trouble, there's no violence, even when West Ham are at home in the mainly Asian area of Green Street, lined with curry houses and sari shops. Our local culture is enriched by the Polish café, the Thai restaurant, the Jamaican takeaway.
If it's such an issue, how come the BNP took a kicking at the last local elections and lost all 12 of their council seats in Barking and Dagenham? And how come there are no UKIP councillors there either? Four Labour councillors defected to UKIP and none of them won a seat in the 2014 local elections.

 

[Johnuk123]

Why is it not positive? My borough Newham has an even smaller proportion of its population being white British. There's no trouble, there's no violence, even when West Ham are at home in the mainly Asian area of Green Street, lined with curry houses and sari shops. Our local culture is enriched by the Polish café, the Thai restaurant, the Jamaican takeaway.
If it's such an issue, how come the BNP took a kicking at the last local elections and lost all 12 of their council seats in Barking and Dagenham? And how come there are no UKIP councillors there either? Four Labour councillors defected to UKIP and none of them won a seat in the 2014 local elections.

If as you say there is no trouble or violence in Newham why is it rated the 4th least peaceful place to live in Britain ?

What is making its residents feel less peaceful than other areas ?


http://www.visionofhumanity.org/pdf/ukpi/UK_Peace_Index_report_2013.pdf

Newham is to the east of the City of London and ranks as
the fourth least peaceful area in the UKPI. Home to the 2012
London Olympics, almost 70% of residents still experience
deprivation and 16% receive housing benefits. Two-thirds of all
income benefit claimants are between the ages of 25-49 and
39% of households earn below 60% of the median income.
The 10-year average homicide rate of 4.3 per 100,000 people
is greater than the national 10-year average of 1.2 homicides.
Whilst there have been large fluctuations in homicides, there
appears to be a general downward trend with 2012 recording
a 10 year low of two homicides. The weapons crime rate has
largely followed the national trend with a decline over the last
decade. Since 2003, the weapons crime rate has dropped
47% from 408 incidents to 216 recorded incidents. The 10-year
average for Newham at 139 incidents per 100,000 people is
more than twice the national average for the same period.
Unlike the national trend in the United Kingdom, both the
number and rate of violent crimes has increased over the
last decade. In 2012 there were 5,476 recorded violent crime
incidents which is slightly lower than the worst year 2005,
which saw almost 6,600 incidents. The 10-year average violent
crime rate of 2,315 incidents per 100,000 people is almost
two-and-a-half times the national average for the same period.
Newham has consistently received the worst score of five on its
violent crime indicator score for the last decade.

Stratford in Newham is actually the worst crime hotspot in Britain, so for you to say there is no crime or violence in Newham is rather contradicted.


http://metro.co.uk/2013/08/11/strat...otspot-with-3440-crimes-in-18-months-3919223/

The area of London near to where the 2012 Olympics took place is the country’s worst crime hotspot, it has been claimed.
Stratford has seen 3,440 crimes over the past 18 months, including 500 shoplifting offences, almost 300 violent crimes and hundreds of pick-pocketings and muggings.
Metropolitan police recorded the most crimes in the postcode around Meridian Square, the public area that links Stratford’s bus and rail stations, the Westfield shopping centre and the entrance to the Olympic Park.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And it's in no way the fault of councils and Governments failing to build enough affordable social housing?

It's the fault of the Government who chose to change the law to allow the heavily discounted sale of council housing and prevented councils from building new council housing.

Needless to say, the son of the Housing Minister who pushed that through in the late 80s now owns 120 ex-council properties in Wandsworth, and makes a fortune in housing benefit.

Nothing, they are the core of the UKIP voters who having left London because they didn't want to be in a mixed ethnic area (which good parts of Southeast London have become over the last 30 years), don't want history repeating itself.

Have you asked everyone who's left London why they left London? I bet UKIP haven't.

People getting some money and moving out to the suburbs is not a new phenomenon. Generally it's because the Home Counties are a nicer place to raise children, with lots of countryside and clean(er) air. I'm sure some people did move out because they think it's still 1974 and that Love Thy Neighbour was a documentary. I'm sure more moved out because they wanted a garden.

I moved out of London because I wanted a bit of countryside, not because I was scared a black man might live next door.

However, in Barking and Dagenham, for example, the white British population dropped by over 30% in 10 years between 2001-2011. That is white flight and not a positive phenomenon.

I'm sure the closure of most of Ford's Dagenham factory in 2002 had nothing to do with it at all :roll:

 

[21C101]

uWhat I am trying to say is that a third of the population leaving in ten years for whatever the reason is a negative fevelopment and that UKIP supporters in Kent are likely to disproportionately be incomers from Southeast London.They are also more likely to have love thy neighbour sentiments than longstanding kent residents

East Kent also has a large industrial/ex mining community which is more akin to the midlands or north which seems to have abandoned Labour for UKIP

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Funny that so many of them have foreign accents

That doesn't by itself prove anything. Where I live there are many UK born British citizens who have foreign sounding accents, apparently because they have inherited the accents of their parents or grandparents who came to the UK some decades ago.

 

[EM2]

If as you say there is no trouble or violence in Newham why is it rated the 4th least peaceful place to live in Britain ?

What is making its residents feel less peaceful than other areas ?

Stratford in Newham is actually the worst crime hotspot in Britain, so for you to say there is no crime or violence in Newham is rather contradicted.

They don't feel at peace because of the reasons you posted. Low income and deprivation.
You may not know that Stratford has two shopping centres, one of them is one of the largest in Europe, and a very busy railway station, both of which mean a lot of people in close quarters, many of them from outside the borough. That's why those figures are so high and also why shoplifting is a major component of them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Exactly, there are people in full time work who are struggling to survive and thank goodness there are food banks or people would have to steal or starve. The cost of renting property has gone through the roof due to the ever increasing demand and many such properties are riddled with damp, landlords know somebody will take it so why bother doing anything about it? For many people it's a choice of paying way over the odds for substandard accommodation or sleep on the streets.

Indeed, it is a terrible situation. It could of course be fixed (in a few years) by the Government sorting out the longstanding lack of adequate house building.

The south east is grossly overpopulated and as I said before UKIP are the only ones doing something about it.

I don't think they are. Arguably the main reason the SE has seen large population increases is because of the geographical imbalance of the economy - and the fact that foreign immigration is concentrated around London is merely a reflection of that fundamental problem. I'm a perfect example of that - moved to London from my home 'up North' because London is almost the only place where I could get a decent job in my profession. If hypothetically you stopped foreign immigration completely tomorrow, one result would almost certainly be to significantly increase economic pressures for British people to move to London from other parts of the country, which would still cause similar population pressures around London.

I'm not aware of any UKIP policies designed to deal with that fundamental problem.

 

[Johnuk123]

They don't feel at peace because of the reasons you posted. Low income and deprivation.
You may not know that Stratford has two shopping centres, one of them is one of the largest in Europe, and a very busy railway station, both of which mean a lot of people in close quarters, many of them from outside the borough. That's why those figures are so high and also why shoplifting is a major component of them.

Are you still sticking to your statement that there is no trouble or violence in Newham ?

 

[EM2]

Yes. Everywhere has crime, Newham may have more than many places, but there is no widespread violence like Moss Side (as an example) used to suffer from.

 

[Johnuk123]

Yes. Everywhere has crime, Newham may have more than many places, but there is no widespread violence like Moss Side (as an example) used to suffer from.

I agree with that.

 

[Antman]

That doesn't by itself prove anything. Where I live there are many UK born British citizens who have foreign sounding accents, apparently because they have inherited the accents of their parents or grandparents who came to the UK some decades ago.

Well one of my neighbours is of Polish descent (his grandfather) and he doesn't have any trace of a foreign accent.

Anyway the main point is that London and the south east are at bursting point, as somebody put it "this isn't about race, it's about space"!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, it is a terrible situation. It could of course be fixed (in a few years) by the Government sorting out the longstanding lack of adequate house building.



I don't think they are. Arguably the main reason the SE has seen large population increases is because of the geographical imbalance of the economy - and the fact that foreign immigration is concentrated around London is merely a reflection of that fundamental problem. I'm a perfect example of that - moved to London from my home 'up North' because London is almost the only place where I could get a decent job in my profession. If hypothetically you stopped foreign immigration completely tomorrow, one result would almost certainly be to significantly increase economic pressures for British people to move to London from other parts of the country, which would still cause similar population pressures around London.

I'm not aware of any UKIP policies designed to deal with that fundamental problem.

Yes people have always come to London from other parts of the UK, I don't think anybody is suggesting stopping foreign immigration altogether, just reducing it to more manageable levels

 

[Butts]

Polish immigrants are nothing new.

40 Years ago when I used to do a paper round and work in the shop we had lot's of Poles popping in for their baccy and newspaper on the way to work.

This generation were settlers during/after WWW2.

 

[TheJRB]

I'm sorry but the South East isn't bursting. Far from it. If you think it is, you've never been across the Weald of Kent, down through the Romney Marsh or to large swathes of Thanet where there's little to no civilisation to speak of for miles. Yes our cities are busy, but that's what cities are; they're centres of commerce and thus attract a good deal of our population. The commuter belt is expanding and somewhere for example 70 or 80 miles from London (like for example Dover) is deemed a viable commuting distance. One thing I know for certain however is that there are great chunks of our home counties which remain agricultural and are therefore not "bursting" by any stretch of even the most deluded imagination.

 

[AM9]

I'm sorry but the South East isn't bursting. Far from it. If you think it is, you've never been across the Weald of Kent, down through the Romney Marsh or to large swathes of Thanet where there's little to no civilisation to speak of for miles. Yes our cities are busy, but that's what cities are; they're centres of commerce and thus attract a good deal of our population. The commuter belt is expanding and somewhere for example 70 or 80 miles from London (like for example Dover) is deemed a viable commuting distance. One thing I know for certain however is that there are great chunks of our home counties which remain agricultural and are therefore not "bursting" by any stretch of even the most deluded imagination.

It's just another example of postings here degenerating into Daily Mail headlines.

 

[Antman]

It's just another example of postings here degenerating into Daily Mail headlines.

Try renting somewhere in Brighton for example:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry but the South East isn't bursting. Far from it. If you think it is, you've never been across the Weald of Kent, down through the Romney Marsh or to large swathes of Thanet where there's little to no civilisation to speak of for miles. Yes our cities are busy, but that's what cities are; they're centres of commerce and thus attract a good deal of our population. The commuter belt is expanding and somewhere for example 70 or 80 miles from London (like for example Dover) is deemed a viable commuting distance. One thing I know for certain however is that there are great chunks of our home counties which remain agricultural and are therefore not "bursting" by any stretch of even the most deluded imagination.

You obviously haven't used the M25 today.

What do suggest? That we just bury all the countryside under concrete?

 

[21C101]

It's just another example of postings here degenerating into Daily Mail headlines.

I partially sympathise, however there is the small matter of that agricultural land being needed for food....

I think the entire world population would theoretically fit on the isle of wight and the entire world population could live in houses in Texas but is it desirable...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You obviously haven't used the M25 today.

I'm not sure how the closure of three lanes because of a surface defect causing a lot of traffic proves that the south east is overcrowded?

 

[21C101]

I moved out of London because I wanted a bit of countryside, not because I was scared a black man might live next door.

I would like to think that there are not that many Alf Garnet type characters still around.

I think it is more a case of where its not next door but most of the inhabitants of the street over a fairly fast period moving out and being replaced with people who mostly speak a different language and have a vastly different culture, and this leads to things like the pubs closing because the incomers dont drink. etc. and people feeling like a student whos still in university the year after all their mates graduated surrounded by strangers who have different interests and desires.

This can of course be accelerated when houses get to a certain age (50-70 years) as the original inhabitants who mostly moved in as young couples when the houses were built die off.

All sorts of reasons cause people to leave and I doubt very many leave for any one reason. It was having to drive through two hours of south London traffic to get to the countryside for a Sunday afternoon walk that did it for me, I wanted to be somewhere not densely populated.

However I would be very surprised if incomers from south/east london were not some of the most enthusiastic kippers in Kent. By all accounts a good proportion of the Clacton Kippers were former eastenders.

 

[TheJRB]

You obviously haven't used the M25 today.

What do suggest? That we just bury all the countryside under concrete?

No I haven't used the M25 and I intend to avoid using it as much as possible. I much prefer using public transport where it's available anyway. The M25's been hell for as long as anybody can remember anyway so I hardly see that it's evidence that we're at some imaginary breaking point.

I would say that here in Ashford, it's leaning to the contrary. A sensible increase in public transport provision has lead to the roads being roughly as busy as they ever have been in the past two decades, if not a little quieter.

Regarding your second comment, of course I mean no such thing and you know that full well. What I'm saying is that while there are still areas which are used for agriculture (which is both necessary and desirable) and there are areas of conservation (for the purpose of preventing doubt, I think these are a fantastic thing too), we are by default not at "bursting point".

If you live in one of the busiest capital cities in the world, expect to queue in road traffic and expect to stand on public transport because you better believe it's the same situation in the busiest cities across the world.

 

[21C101]

No I haven't used the M25 and I intend to avoid using it as much as possible. I much prefer using public transport where it's available anyway. The M25's been hell for as long as anybody can remember anyway so I hardly see that it's evidence that we're at some imaginary breaking point.

I would say that here in Ashford, it's leaning to the contrary. A sensible increase in public transport provision has lead to the roads being roughly as busy as they ever have been in the past two decades, if not a little quieter.

Regarding your second comment, of course I mean no such thing and you know that full well. What I'm saying is that while there are still areas which are used for agriculture (which is both necessary and desirable) and there are areas of conservation (for the purpose of preventing doubt, I think these are a fantastic thing too), we are by default not at "bursting point".

If you live in one of the busiest capital cities in the world, expect to queue in road traffic and expect to stand on public transport because you better believe it's the same situation in the busiest cities across the world.

It would help if the other non radial trunk roads like the A27/A259 or the A505/A418 or the A428/A421 were not mixtures of grand dual carriageway interspersed with goat tracks.

Also the western end of the M25 was never expected to cope with the level of traffic. Originally the A329(M) was meant to be extended to the M3 via roughly the route of the A319/A322 and onto the M25 near Wisley. It was to be the M31 which is why the A329(M)/M4 junction is so grand. http://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m31/

 

[EM2]

Try renting somewhere in Brighton for example:roll:

A 2 bed flat, less than a mile from the station, for £825 a month seems a decent deal to me:
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/details/34682936#omVZatmBZL4shEt3.97