EU legislation and bus routes more than 50 km in length

[philthetube]

The good news is that if you have survived the 5.5 hours on the first half of your shift you only need to do 4.5 on the second half

10 hours driving a day 365 days a year is legal, should it be?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The good news is that if you have survived the 5.5 hours on the first half of your shift you only need to do 4.5 on the second half

10 hours driving a day 365 days a year is legal, should it be?

The answer to that question is probably answered by looking at whether that is actually causing accidents due to fatigue or not.

If it isn't, then the answer is the same as whether 10 hours of IT work, or bricklaying, or bog cleaning, or whatever 365 days a year should be legal or not, i.e. it's an employment conditions issue, not a bus driving issue.

If it is, then clearly, no it shouldn't.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The good news is that if you have survived the 5.5 hours on the first half of your shift you only need to do 4.5 on the second half

10 hours driving a day 365 days a year is legal, should it be?

365 days a year? Which regulations are you reading?

 

[Stan Drews]

365 days a year? Which regulations are you reading?

Let’s assume this was a 12 day working pattern (with 10 hours driving in each shift), that continually repeated itself.
Day 1: 1500-0200
Day 2: 1400-0100
Day 3: 1300-2400
Day 4: 1200-2300
Day 5: 1100-2200
Day 6: 1000-2100
Day 7: 0900-2000
Day 8: 0800-1900
Day 9: 0700-1800
Day 10: 0600-1700
Day 11: 0500-1600
Day 12: 0400-1500
Day 13: as per day 1
Day 14: as per day 2
etc, etc...

It has 12 hours off between duties, and a full 24 hours off after every 12th duty.
Whilst not morally acceptable, does it comply with all the UK domestic drivers hours regulations?

 

[PG]

Whilst not morally acceptable, does it comply with all the UK domestic drivers hours regulations

I'm not so sure that it is compliant...
Drivers' hours (gov.uk)
...contains this wording

Daily rest periods​

You must take a rest of 10 hours before the first duty and immediately after the last duty in a working week.

Apart from the 24 hour period between day 12 and day 13 no other day has >12 hours between driving;
that being the case there is no allowance for 10 hours rest immediately after the last duty in a working week and 10 hours rest before the first duty of the next week i.e. 20 hours.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The answer to that question is probably answered by looking at whether that is actually causing accidents due to fatigue or not.

If it isn't, then the answer is the same as whether 10 hours of IT work, or bricklaying, or bog cleaning, or whatever 365 days a year should be legal or not, i.e. it's an employment conditions issue, not a bus driving issue.

If it is, then clearly, no it shouldn't.

There's also the element of risk - someone in IT can double check their work and correct it if they make a mistake. They also likely have tools that automatically detect/correct things like typing errors as they go along.

If a bus driver makes a mistake, there is no backspace button and a real chance of physical injury to not just them but other people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also the element of risk - someone in IT can double check their work and correct it if they make a mistake. They also likely have tools that automatically detect/correct things like typing errors as they go along.

If a bus driver makes a mistake, there is no backspace button and a real chance of physical injury to not just them but other people.

That's true - which is why I said the determiner is really whether it's causing accidents (or near-misses) or not.

I suspect few if any drivers are driving for 5.5 hours solid. Most bus routes have a turnaround at each end during which the driver typically gets out for a cigarette. (Smoking or vaping almost seems mandatory for bus drivers! )

 

[Megafuss]

Let’s assume this was a 12 day working pattern (with 10 hours driving in each shift), that continually repeated itself.
Day 1: 1500-0200
Day 2: 1400-0100
Day 3: 1300-2400
Day 4: 1200-2300
Day 5: 1100-2200
Day 6: 1000-2100
Day 7: 0900-2000
Day 8: 0800-1900
Day 9: 0700-1800
Day 10: 0600-1700
Day 11: 0500-1600
Day 12: 0400-1500
Day 13: as per day 1
Day 14: as per day 2
etc, etc...

It has 12 hours off between duties, and a full 24 hours off after every 12th duty.
Whilst not morally acceptable, does it comply with all the UK domestic drivers hours regulations?

Any union branch that would allow that in a company schedule agreement needs disbanding

 

[philthetube]

I'm not so sure that it is compliant...
Drivers' hours (gov.uk)
...contains this wording

Apart from the 24 hour period between day 12 and day 13 no other day has >12 hours between driving;
that being the case there is no allowance for 10 hours rest immediately after the last duty in a working week and 10 hours rest before the first duty of the next week i.e. 20 hours.

That is an ambiguous statement and is not interpreted that way.

Any union branch that would allow that in a company schedule agreement needs disbanding

not all drivers work in a unionised environment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

not all drivers work in a unionised environment.

Given how basically every bus company is permanently advertising for drivers, you'd think that drivers would be able to move companies to avoid that kind of bare-minimum-compliance rubbish if any are actually doing it (are they, or are we just working out what they could theoretically do but probably never will?)

As in - is there actually a problem here?

 

[Stan Drews]

Any union branch that would allow that in a company schedule agreement needs disbanding

I wasn’t for a minute suggesting that it was anywhere near an acceptable working schedule. However, it had been suggested that you couldn’t legally work 365 days a year, which is open to question. Hence the example.
As others have pointed out, there are lots of operators that do not work within a heavily unionised environment,
...and many drivers that choose not to work in such unionised environments!

 

[iantherev]

I'm sure it's been said on here that First used to run their Jurrasic Coaster from Exeter to Poole, and Stagecoach ran a Portsmouth to Dover service. But these had to be cut back due to this EU legislation, can anyone clarify because I've probably got these services wrong

The X53 Exeter - Poole cutback had nothing to do with EU rules. Devon CC withdrew subsidy for the Exeter - Lyme Regis section and the service was pruned to run this section at a frequency that could be run commercially. By this time Stagecoach were also running Exeter - Lyme (via Sidmouth) and the final nail in the coffin was industrial action in summer 2017.

 

[RT4038]

I wasn’t for a minute suggesting that it was anywhere near an acceptable working schedule. However, it had been suggested that you couldn’t legally work 365 days a year, which is open to question. Hence the example.
As others have pointed out, there are lots of operators that do not work within a heavily unionised environment,
...and many drivers that choose not to work in such unionised environments!

A driver could not work 365 days a year, as the Working Time Directive stipulates a minimum of 28 days paid holiday. So possibly, in the most extreme case, 337 days. If the driver was working an average of 3 hours per day for those 337 days, would this not be unreasonable or unduly stressful?

As @Bletchleyite points out, is there actually a problem with the current rules, or are we trying to find the most extreme hypothetical cases that are rarely operated in practice?

 

[PG]

As @Bletchleyite points out, is there actually a problem with the current rules, or are we trying to find the most extreme hypothetical cases that are rarely operated in practice?

Given how basically every bus company is permanently advertising for drivers, you'd think that drivers would be able to move companies to avoid that kind of bare-minimum-compliance rubbish if any are actually doing it (are they, or are we just working out what they could theoretically do but probably never will?)

As in - is there actually a problem here?

I think we are well into the hypothetical.

As others have pointed out, there are lots of operators that do not work within a heavily unionised environment,
...and many drivers that choose not to work in such unionised environments!

FWIW I've worked in both such environments (being a union member in the unionised ones) and without any doubt I've had far less issues in a non union workplace. As was commented on the Shortage of traincrew at TPE thread unions on the railway actually have some clout and solidarity!

That is an ambiguous statement and is not interpreted that way

Thanks, I stand corrected

 

[philthetube]

A driver could not work 365 days a year, as the Working Time Directive stipulates a minimum of 28 days paid holiday. So possibly, in the most extreme case, 337 days. If the driver was working an average of 3 hours per day for those 337 days, would this not be unreasonable or unduly stressful?

As @Bletchleyite points out, is there actually a problem with the current rules, or are we trying to find the most extreme hypothetical cases that are rarely operated in practice?

Nothing to stop a driver working for more than one employer.

I agree that three hours a day would not be stressful, if there was an annual total of hours allowed, similar to pilots then this would be fine. Having just looked at the regs, as I read it you do not need to follow them if you drive less than four hours daily, I may be misinterpreting though.

I am also trying to decide if you are allowed to work 10 hours on 10 hours off for 13 days then have a 24 hour break? that would be horrendous.

I find posts from a couple of regular "rail" posters interesting, I feel that if we were discussing train driving hours their perspective would be totally different.

 

[PG]

I am also trying to decide if you are allowed to work 10 hours on 10 hours off for 13 days then have a 24 hour break? that would be horrendous.

First off that would be a form of torture!
As far as I can determine it would be allowed -(13*24)/(10+10)=15.6
- so that would be, 15 periods of 10 hours driving followed by 10 hours rest, within 13 days to be followed by at least 24 hours off!

On GB regulations you can even make drivers count there turn round time as breaks.
I had a bus doing a run every 30mins that was timed to have a 10min break after the 20min loop. and they did that full shift

Firstly apologies for the delayed reply as I missed your post somehow while reading the thread.

Turn around time (as you put it) would more correctly be termed non-driving time, and so not count towards the 10 hours daily driving limit
i.e. in the example you gave a driver is driving a total of 40 minutes in each hour and so could in theory do that for a total of 15 hours a day provided they had a 30 minutes break every 5.5 hours; the other time each hour (2 * 10 minutes) is not sufficiently long to count as a break.

 

[Geordie driver]

Shifts running up the maximum hours were not common, perhaps once a fortnight but it was with a heavy heart you climbed aboard at 6 am knowing you were on there until 11 30. 30 minute " break" means 30 mins of bus, not in a rest area ( if one is provided) then another 4 and a half hours. Circular routes are the worst as there is little or no chance of a toilet break, we were not supposed to leave passengers unattended on board.

I have seen supervisors harass drivers for using the toilet insisting it is more important to get the bus out on time. They wouldn't do it to me, I would tell them to get lost ( other short 2 word responses are available) ,but they would do it to new drivers. I have seen them encourage or turn a blind eye to drivers not taking their full 30 minute break.

I can get the point that unless drivers are crashing due to exhaustion then the hours are ok, but you have to have a pretty cold heart to think these conditions are humane?

I had a thread up some time ago about miserable drivers and complaints, loads of forum " experts" on there telling me the conditions I described didn't happen, and a few people who have driven buses confirming they did.The company I worked for found it difficult to get drivers to come in for overtime for these shifts so would split them in order to cover.

There was plenty of overtime when I was rota' d for them, as I often wouldn't come in.

Watch the next time you see a late middle aged male driver boarding, see if they have a plastic milk bottle peeking out of their bag, what do you imagine that bottle is for?! Then they hand you your change.....

I am turning into Victor Meldrew.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can get the point that unless drivers are crashing due to exhaustion then the hours are ok, but you have to have a pretty cold heart to think these conditions are humane?

But then that's not a bus-driving issue, it's an employment issue which would as much apply to someone sweeping the streets, answering the phone, cooking food or whatever. These laws are specifically about road safety. There might be a cause for improved laws requiring breaks etc for people in any line of employment, but these wouldn't be implemented by way of PCV regulations.

Watch the next time you see a late middle aged male driver boarding, see if they have a plastic milk bottle peeking out of their bag, what do you imagine that bottle is for?! Then they hand you your change.....

The non-provision of public toilets in the UK is an issue for huge numbers of people at work and at leisure, not just bus drivers. It's something we really should get sorted, and there should be a mandate on local authorities for their provision. In days gone by they'd always be there at bus termini. Given that it's more of an issue for women (who can't as easily use a bush, alleyway or as you say milk bottle), disabled people and older people, I wish someone would take it on as a discrimination campaign, really.

 

[Geordie driver]

But then that's not a bus-driving issue, it's an employment issue which would as much apply to someone sweeping the streets, answering the phone, cooking food or whatever. These laws are specifically about road safety. There might be a cause for improved laws requiring breaks etc for people in any line of employment, but these wouldn't be implemented by way of PCV regulations.



The non-provision of public toilets in the UK is an issue for huge numbers of people at work and at leisure, not just bus drivers. It's something we really should get sorted, and there should be a mandate on local authorities for their provision. In days gone by they'd always be there at bus termini. Given that it's more of an issue for women (who can't as easily use a bush, alleyway or as you say milk bottle), disabled people and older people, I wish someone would take it on as a discrimination campaign, really.

You are right about it being a work issue,but I am unaware of any other industry where this length of time without a toilet break if acceptable? Because it's the 5 1/2 hour rule that managers hide behind when it comes to toilet breaks.

The race to the bottom on wages and conditions is well documented and one of the reasons I always advise never taking up bus driving.

 

[RT4038]

You are right about it being a work issue,but I am unaware of any other industry where this length of time without a toilet break if acceptable? Because it's the 5 1/2 hour rule that managers hide behind when it comes to toilet breaks.

I think the Working Time Directive is 6hr before a minimum break of 20min ......

 

[richw]

As far as I can determine it would be allowed -(13*24)/(10+10)=15.6
- so that would be, 15 periods of 10 hours driving followed by 10 hours rest, within 13 days to be followed by at least 24 hours off!

Perfectly legal to work 365 days less annual leave.
day 13 work an early shift, day 14 work a late shift. 24 hours and 1 min is required between the early finishing and late starting.
The group I work for had a company policy that doesn’t allow more than 13 consecutive calendar days then you must have a calendar day off.

 

[GusB]

Let's not turn this into a discussion about how awful former employers were, or the lack of public toilet provision.

 

[DC3]

It has 12 hours off between duties, and a full 24 hours off after every 12th duty.
Whilst not morally acceptable, does it comply with all the UK domestic drivers hours regulations?

Although the 24h between the shifts is correct, at NX for example, your 24h rest period must be a full calendar day. I think that’s a local agreement with Unite. It came into effect a few years after I started though.

 

[mb88]

Does anyone know what the situation is in EU member states with regards to this? Do local bus and long distance services all come under EU drivers hours in Germany or France for example? And if so are digi cards used on local service work?

 

[Statto]

Careful what you whish for, tightening up the rules to end the loophole, could mean services being cut back & areas being left unserved that had a though route under current legislation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Careful what you whish for, tightening up the rules to end the loophole, could mean services being cut back & areas being left unserved that had a though route under current legislation.

Given that we will have left the EU fully in 2 days (bar a trade deal which has nothing to do with domestic local bus operation), I would be very surprised if that happened. More likely the criteria will change, e.g. to exempt all registered local bus services regardless of length.

 

[MotCO]

Do any express services operate non-stop for more than 5 1/2 hours? If so, how are driver change-overs actioned? I've heard of continental drivers changing over whilst the coach was still travelling, but that surely doesn't happen here. Do the coaches pull into a motorway services, stop, change drivers, then move off again?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do the coaches pull into a motorway services, stop, change drivers, then move off again?

That's what they used to do on the Megabus "with beds" sleepers which had no passenger stops between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh. It was an odd night's sleep - I actually slept quite well, much better than I tend to on a train, but the night was a bit like a 30 minute trip with 3 or 4 swapovers in rapid succession, as pulling off tended to wake me up, but I'd doze off again as soon as we were smoothly back on again. They literally just pulled off, swapped and went back on straight away.

 

[Statto]

National Express do use motorway services for driver changes, in fact even breaks without driver changes are scheduled at motorway services on long non stop sections on National Express routes, i know of one such break at Norton Cranes services on the M6 toll, Knutsford services are used too.

 

[DC3]

NX Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Butlins Minehead, had a 45m break at Michael Wood. No driver change.