Eurostar not serving Kent.

[duncanp]

I think it is a load of old cobblers to blame Brexit and COVID.

These two events are just being used as a convenient excuse for a bit of cost cutting and saving money.

Eurostar says trains will not stop in Kent for ‘two to three years’ as it blames Brexit

Eurostar dashes hopes of a gradual return to services following 'toughened' border restrictions

www.telegraph.co.uk

Eurostar says trains will not stop in Kent for ‘two to three years’ as it blames Brexit​

Eurostar dashes hopes of a gradual return to services following 'toughened' border restrictions

Eurostar trains will not stop in Kent for up to three years, the operator said as it blamed the decision on Brexit and its post-pandemic recovery.

The county could remain disconnected from the Continent until 2025 after the train company dashed hopes of a gradual return of services next year.

Eurostar will continue to have “considerable” financial commitments for a number of years after a drought of passengers during lockdowns, it said, delaying any changes to its timetable.

The operator also blamed Brexit, saying border restrictions had “toughened” since the UK’s departure from the EU. It added it expected further friction when the EU’s Entry/Exit System is launched in May next year.

The new system will automatically check the validity of passports and ETIAS passes (or visas) of visitors from countries outside the Schengen area each time they cross an EU external border.

Trains regularly stopped at Ebbsfleet and Ashford International stations on their way to Europe until 2020 when services were suspended owing to the pandemic.

Passengers were hoping services would resume in 2023, but Eurostar said on Tuesday that it could not “make any commitment for another two to three years” on reviving the routes.

A spokesman said: “We understand this will be disappointing for the local communities.

“Whilst we continue to operate in an uncertain and fragile environment, we must focus on our most profitable inter-capital routes to enable us to meet our financial commitments, stabilise our operation and our customer experience, before considering any further developments.

“We will continue to work closely and openly with the local councils on the future of the stations.”

The lack of international service has left Ashford’s station almost completely empty for more than two years, since the pandemic struck.

Passenger numbers at Ashford International dropped from four million in 2019/20 to one million in 2020/21, according to annual figures from the Office of Rail and Road.

The Ashford station cost about £100m to rebuild for Eurostar services in the 1990s.

The delays will be a blow for companies such as Brompton, the bike maker, who is building a new factory in Kent.

Will Butler-Adams, Brompton's chief executive, said in February that the proximity of the Eurostar station would allow the company to “engage with Europe really easily”.

 

[XAM2175]

... The county could remain disconnected from the Continent ...

 

[Chester1]

Eurostar says trains will not stop in Kent for ‘two to three years’ as it blames Brexit

Eurostar dashes hopes of a gradual return to services following 'toughened' border restrictions

www.telegraph.co.uk

Eurostar says trains will not stop in Kent for ‘two to three years’ as it blames Brexit

Eurostar dashes hopes of a gradual return to services following 'toughened' border restriction Eurostar trains will not stop in Kent for up to three years, the operator said as it blamed the decision on Brexit and its post-pandemic recovery.

The county could remain disconnected from the Continent until 2025 after the train company dashed hopes of a gradual return of services next year.

Eurostar will continue to have “considerable” financial commitments for a number of years after a drought of passengers during lockdowns, it said, delaying any changes to its timetable.

The operator also blamed Brexit, saying border restrictions had “toughened” since the UK’s departure from the EU. It added it expected further friction when the EU’s Entry/Exit System is launched in May next year.

The new system will automatically check the validity of passports and ETIAS passes (or visas) of visitors from countries outside the Schengen area each time they cross an EU external border.

Trains regularly stopped at Ebbsfleet and Ashford International stations on their way to Europe until 2020 when services were suspended owing to the pandemic.
Passengers were hoping services would resume in 2023, but Eurostar said on Tuesday that it could not “make any commitment for another two to three years” on reviving the routes.

A spokesman said: “We understand this will be disappointing for the local communities.

“Whilst we continue to operate in an uncertain and fragile environment, we must focus on our most profitable inter-capital routes to enable us to meet our financial commitments, stabilise our operation and our customer experience, before considering any further developments.

“We will continue to work closely and openly with the local councils on the future of the stations.”

The lack of international service has left Ashford’s station almost completely empty for more than two years, since the pandemic struck.Passenger numbers at Ashford International dropped from four million in 2019/20 to one million in 2020/21, according to annual figures from the Office of Rail and Road.

The Ashford station cost about £100m to rebuild for Eurostar services in the 1990s.

The delays will be a blow for companies such as Brompton, the bike maker, who is building a new factory in Kent.

Will Butler-Adams, Brompton's chief executive, said in February that the proximity of the Eurostar station would allow the company to “engage with Europe really easily”.

The title is a bit misleading because Eurostar has not said they won't restart stops in Kent, rather that they can't make a commitment.

It does make sense to limit the number of stations during 2023. EES launches in May 2023 and ETIAS in November 2023. Both are likely to cause issues at Schengen entry points. While this won't directly effect Eurostar there are likely to be a lot more people at risk of missing services due to people underestimating first time use of each system.

EES will be free and is an electronic replacement of passport stamping. It will alow Brits to use Schengen e gates again. It requires finger printing people prior or at time of first entry into Schengen.

ETIAS is a visa waiver that is extremely similar to US ESTA system thats been in use for about 15 years. Canada and Australia have similar systems and the UK is piloiting a system due for launch in 2025. ETIAS is essentially a basic security check prior to first entry into Schengen zone during the three year period. It will cost €7 for three years.

Both are linked to brexit in the sense that EU members that are not in Schengen e.g. Ireland and Croatia are not subject of either policy. However, the EU and UK are late adopters of visa waivers and British Citizens travelling outside of Europe are increasingly having to get them as countries copy the US. There are a lot of countries whose citizens are very low risk of overstaying, claiming asylum or working illegally and therefore don't require full visas but its useful for law enforcement to know background of anyone entering or leaving a passport territory. Introducing visa waivers mean that it is harder for criminals to enter and leave supporting international policing. There are some countries whose wealth would normally exempt their citizens from requiring visas in western countries but they are subject to visas for security reasons. ETIAS and UK ETA should mean their citizens don't need visas for EU or UK anymore because the waiver checks suffice.

It will clearly be a pain in the backside for law abiding people while the new systems settle in! Id hope that Eurostar will serve Kent from 2024 but its easy to see why they won't commit. Every Eurostar stop in the EU is larger than Ebbsfleet and Ashford so hopefully the launch of the UK ETA in 2025 won't effect stopping patterns.

 

[Cloud Strife]

EES/ETIAS is not a guarantee to start next year. I've heard a lot on the topic, and the simple answer is that neither system is in any position to be rolled out across all the Schengen states.

 

[Chester1]

EES/ETIAS is not a guarantee to start next year. I've heard a lot on the topic, and the simple answer is that neither system is in any position to be rolled out across all the Schengen states.

I suspect that is part of the reason for Eurostar not making commitments for up to three years. They probably want both systems to launch and have settled in before they restart Kent services. Three year period allows for two years of further EES and ETIAS launch delays.

 

[Chester1]

Great minds think a like! I was typing up my thread when you posted yours. Please could a moderator sort this out?

 

[Cloud Strife]

I suspect that is part of the reason for Eurostar not making commitments for up to three years. They probably want both systems to launch and have settled in before they restart Kent services. Three year period allows for two years of further EES and ETIAS launch delays.

Although wait, I don't think EES will be used at the rail border. It's only going to apply at the air borders for now, due to the problems of fingerprinting people on trains/etc. I know Eurostar is a different case, but I haven't heard anything saying that it would be extended to the Channel Tunnel as it's treated as a rail/land border.

ETIAS will be, but from Eurostar's point of view, they don't have to do anything for it.

Truth is, they can fill the trains without using Ashford or Ebbsfleet anyway.

 

[duncanp]

I suspect that is part of the reason for Eurostar not making commitments for up to three years. They probably want both systems to launch and have settled in before they restart Kent services. Three year period allows for two years of further EES and ETIAS launch delays.

So nothing to do with Brexit then.

Because they would have to have EES and ETIAS controls at St Pancras even if the UK was still an EU member state, because St Pancras is an entry point to the Schengen area.

 

[Chester1]

So nothing to do with Brexit then.

Because they would have to have EES and ETIAS controls at St Pancras even if the UK was still an EU member state, because St Pancras is an entry point to the Schengen area.

If we were still a member of the EU the checks would only apply to third country nationals. Most Eurostar passengers are EU or British Citizens (or dual citizens). I would guess that the % of third country nationals is lower at Ebbsfleet and Ashford than St Pancras due to London to Paris journeys by foreign tourists. I doubt Ebbsfleet and Ashford are in a position to process a large number of British Citizens first entry into EU under new system. They will require finger printing and that will be easier to facilitate in one station that all outbound services to Schengen zone start at. If Eurostar wait until a few months after new regime is in place to restart Kent stops then a large number of British citizens will have already entered Schengen by plane or from St Pancras.

Although wait, I don't think EES will be used at the rail border. It's only going to apply at the air borders for now, due to the problems of fingerprinting people on trains/etc. I know Eurostar is a different case, but I haven't heard anything saying that it would be extended to the Channel Tunnel as it's treated as a rail/land border.

ETIAS will be, but from Eurostar's point of view, they don't have to do anything for it.

Truth is, they can fill the trains without using Ashford or Ebbsfleet anyway.

Eurostar isn't a normal schengen rail border due to juxtaposed passport controls, are you sure its exempt from EES? You might be right but ETIAS launch is likely to cause as many problems (if not more).

 

[Struner]

What’s would be rhe benefit of a stop in somewhere in the south of england, apart from the lenght of the trip?

what’s => what

 

[30907]

What’s would be rhe benefit of a stop in somewhere in the south of england, apart from the lenght of the trip?

what’s => what

Ebbsfleet is very easily accessible by the London ring M25, so was used as a London Parkway (morning out, afternoon/evening back).
Ashford has good rail connections from Kent and East Sussex, but doesn't serve anything like as big a total market.

 

[py_megapixel]

So do Ebbsfleet and Ashford have passport control and security facilities which have just sat unused/mothballed for the last two years?

 

[Chester1]

So do Ebbsfleet and Ashford have passport control and security facilities which have just sat unused/mothballed for the last two years?

Yes. I doubt there is a cost to the taxpayer. Potentially HS1's owners might be losing out through having facilties they need to maintain but not receive income from. I am not sure if Eurostar paid seperately for use of the facilties or whether it is part of their track access charges.

 

[Struner]

but how would it affect the lenght in time for people travelling from say birmingam?

 

[paul1609]

Yes. I doubt there is a cost to the taxpayer. Potentially HS1's owners might be losing out through having facilties they need to maintain but not receive income from. I am not sure if Eurostar paid seperately for use of the facilties or whether it is part of their track access charges.

The staff for Ashford International were part time from either the channel tunnel 20 mins 12 miles down the M20 or from the inland border facility on Junction 10 about 10 mins away.

 

[EAD]

@duncamp Sorry, but that is not right. EU citizens are free to enter an EU/Schengen border without the requirement to have an ETIAS or undergo EES (that extends to likes of e.g. Switzerland under their bilateral agreement with EU (also a Schengen member). Therefore, if the UK was in the EU UK citizens would also not need to undergo the new process. As a third country with a visa waiver scheme for entry, UK citizens will be subject to ETIAs and EES. Irish citizens for example will notice no change as Ireland is an EU Member State but not in Schengen.

 

[Citybreak1]

The question that has to be asked is this anything with the global flights being cut for global emissions as Amsterdam said and France cutting domestic flights?

 

[Welby]

Eurostar have to pay Network Rail for the use of the track from coming off the "Eurostar" line, through Ashford and then back on to the "Eurostar" line again. The last figure that I was quoted, back in 2010ish was £15k per train, so that could be a big factor in them using Ashford. I cant see any real problems for Ebbsfleet apart from staff costs.

 

[leshuttle]

A long shot, but could be an opportunity for some competition to finally find a business case for running a handful of Ashford and Ebbsfleet services to Paris or Amsterdam if Eurostar end up abandoning these Kent stations for the long term.

 

[jamesontheroad]

A long shot, but could be an opportunity for some competition to finally find a business case for running a handful of Ashford and Ebbsfleet services to Paris or Amsterdam if Eurostar end up abandoning these Kent stations for the long term.

Not impossible but highly unlikely. Any new entrant would want to tap into the capital cities first, not a secondary market. Plus the technical and economic barriers to entry associated with the Channel Tunnel are well documented.

 

[XAM2175]

The question that has to be asked is this anything with the global flights being cut for global emissions as Amsterdam said and France cutting domestic flights?

No.

 

[ashkeba]

A bit off topic, but I do feel it’s a real shame there is no longer any public transport option from Kent to the continent.

Are there no buses using the ferries stopping anywhere in Kent now? That seems poor. I guess you could still catch hours of trains to Newhaven!

 

[Trainbike46]

Are there no buses using the ferries stopping anywhere in Kent now? That seems poor. I guess you could still catch hours of trains to Newhaven!

or the train to dover, and cross by ferry?

 

[WizCastro197]

Are there no buses using the ferries stopping anywhere in Kent now? That seems poor. I guess you could still catch hours of trains to Newhaven!

Does Newhaven even serve Ferries to France anymore? I thought they didn't and that's why Newhaven Harbour Services have had a massive reduction.

I am a bit late to this thread but: I posted this on Eurostar Direct Disneyland Services 2023: eurostar-disney-direct-services-2023.236286

I was explaining why Ebbsfleet is useful:

Yes It is also a lot easier for families who don't want to travel all the way into London with suitcases and heavy bags. You car it there go through a small security, passport control area and onto the train. Shame services won't be reinstated until at least next year

What Eurostar has said:

'Due to the impact of coronavirus and the subsequent pressure put on our business, we’ve made a decision to focus on our busiest city centre stations. As a result, our trains will no longer be stopping at Ashford International or Ebbsfleet International until the end of 2022 at the earliest'

I believe Calais Fréthun will not be served either

 

[Trainbike46]

Does Newhaven even serve Ferries to France anymore? I thought they didn't and that's why Newhaven Harbour Services have had a massive reduction.

Newhaven still has ferries to France: https://www.dfds.com/en-gb/passenger-ferries/ferry-crossings/ferries-to-france/newhaven-dieppe
I thought the station reduction was due to relocation of the ferry terminal?

 

[WizCastro197]

Newhaven still has ferries to France: https://www.dfds.com/en-gb/passenger-ferries/ferry-crossings/ferries-to-france/newhaven-dieppe
I thought the station reduction was due to relocation of the ferry terminal?

Yes You are right.
I read The Wikipedia Page of Newhaven Harbour Station a long time ago and it said Newhaven No longer serves ferries (should've taken it with a grain of salt) but it appears to have been corrected. Thank you

 

[paul1609]

Basically Newhaven has 3 ferries a day to Dieppe. The passenger terminal is 2 mins walk from Newhaven Town Station 200 yards it was relocated there some years ago now when the port was rebuilt to allow bigger ferries. I go over some times on my motorbike. I think it probably has a fair number of foot passengers probably because of its proximity to Brighton and places like Crawley.

 

[alex397]

Are there no buses using the ferries stopping anywhere in Kent now? That seems poor. I guess you could still catch hours of trains to Newhaven!

Not that I am aware of. Pre-covid, one Eurolines coach stopped at Canterbury late at night on the London-Paris service, but I don't believe this still happens.

or the train to dover, and cross by ferry?

Yes that is now an option again on P&O only, but foot passengers have to walk or get a taxi from Dover Priory Station to the Eastern Docks. There are not even any public buses to Dover's largest employer anymore (apart from 3 local buses in the early morning, but that is it). I wasn't sure if P&O allowed foot passengers again, but having checked their website just now they are allowing this again on 5 different departures each way.

Does Newhaven even serve Ferries to France anymore? I thought they didn't and that's why Newhaven Harbour Services have had a massive reduction.

I am a bit late to this thread but: I posted this on Eurostar Direct Disneyland Services 2023: eurostar-disney-direct-services-2023.236286

I was explaining why Ebbsfleet is useful:

Yes It is also a lot easier for families who don't want to travel all the way into London with suitcases and heavy bags. You car it there go through a small security, passport control area and onto the train. Shame services won't be reinstated until at least next year

What Eurostar has said:

'Due to the impact of coronavirus and the subsequent pressure put on our business, we’ve made a decision to focus on our busiest city centre stations. As a result, our trains will no longer be stopping at Ashford International or Ebbsfleet International until the end of 2022 at the earliest'

I believe Calais Fréthun will not be served either

Yes they do. But having checked the DFDS website, they no longer allow foot passengers.

As posted in this thread, Eurostar have confirmed they will not stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford again in 2023, and possibly not until at least 2025.

 

[paul1609]

Eurostar says trains will not stop in Kent for ‘two to three years’ as it blames Brexit

Eurostar dashes hopes of a gradual return to services following 'toughened' border restrictions

www.telegraph.co.uk

The title is a bit misleading because Eurostar has not said they won't restart stops in Kent, rather that they can't make a commitment.

It does make sense to limit the number of stations during 2023. EES launches in May 2023 and ETIAS in November 2023. Both are likely to cause issues at Schengen entry points. While this won't directly effect Eurostar there are likely to be a lot more people at risk of missing services due to people underestimating first time use of each system.

EES will be free and is an electronic replacement of passport stamping. It will alow Brits to use Schengen e gates again. It requires finger printing people prior or at time of first entry into Schengen.

ETIAS is a visa waiver that is extremely similar to US ESTA system thats been in use for about 15 years. Canada and Australia have similar systems and the UK is piloiting a system due for launch in 2025. ETIAS is essentially a basic security check prior to first entry into Schengen zone during the three year period. It will cost €7 for three years.

Both are linked to brexit in the sense that EU members that are not in Schengen e.g. Ireland and Croatia are not subject of either policy. However, the EU and UK are late adopters of visa waivers and British Citizens travelling outside of Europe are increasingly having to get them as countries copy the US. There are a lot of countries whose citizens are very low risk of overstaying, claiming asylum or working illegally and therefore don't require full visas but its useful for law enforcement to know background of anyone entering or leaving a passport territory. Introducing visa waivers mean that it is harder for criminals to enter and leave supporting international policing. There are some countries whose wealth would normally exempt their citizens from requiring visas in western countries but they are subject to visas for security reasons. ETIAS and UK ETA should mean their citizens don't need visas for EU or UK anymore because the waiver checks suffice.

It will clearly be a pain in the backside for law abiding people while the new systems settle in! Id hope that Eurostar will serve Kent from 2024 but its easy to see why they won't commit. Every Eurostar stop in the EU is larger than Ebbsfleet and Ashford so hopefully the launch of the UK ETA in 2025 won't effect stopping patterns.

Personally I dont think Eurostar will ever serve the Kent stations again. Eurostar have let their market share slip away and it wont be easy to regain. Given the extortionate Kent fares its just uncompetitive much easier to drive via Le shuttle to anywhere but Gare de Nord. Brussels is 170 miles from Ashford, Lille 120.
Its rumoured that KLM will be restarting its shuttle service from Manston to Schipol in2025 much easier than the cross London Faff to Heathrow.

 

[Trainbike46]

Not that I am aware of. Pre-covid, one Eurolines coach stopped at Canterbury late at night on the London-Paris service, but I don't believe this still happens.

Yes that is now an option again on P&O only, but foot passengers have to walk or get a taxi from Dover Priory Station to the Eastern Docks. There are not even any public buses to Dover's largest employer anymore (apart from 3 local buses in the early morning, but that is it). I wasn't sure if P&O allowed foot passengers again, but having checked their website just now they are allowing this again on 5 different departures each way.

Yes they do. But having checked the DFDS website, they no longer allow foot passengers.

As posted in this thread, Eurostar have confirmed they will not stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford again in 2023, and possibly not until at least 2025.

DFDS does not take foot passengers in dover, but they do take foot passengers on Newhaven-Dieppe