Eurostar running trains with empty seats

[TommyJ]

My jaw has just hit the floor tracing this article in The Guardian.

Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules​

It says 350 out of 900 seats normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels.
This just seems extraordinarily dysfunctional.

Peak time Eurostar trains are daily forced to run across the Channel with hundreds of empty seats because border police cannot process passports quick enough.

About 350 out of 900 seats are normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels despite “huge demand” for the greenest form of international travel, Eurostar bosses said.

Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules

About 350 out of 900 seats normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels

www.theguardian.com

 

[zwk500]

It does seem extreme, but this is the brave new world we have now that we rejected closer cooperation with Europe. It's slowed down the passenger processing rate at the Border posts, but it's notable that Eurostar don't consider it financially sensible to reopen Ebbsfleet or Ashford to fill up the seats they leave empty from London.

The Amsterdam situation may improve when they complete their various rebuild projects, as the Amsterdam and Rotterdam departure lounges are quite small.

 

[DanielB]

Interesting contradiction with articles in Dutch media, stating Eurostar wants to increase capacity from the Netherlands from 200 to 600 passengers by enlarging the terminals.

 

[zwk500]

Interesting contradiction with articles in Dutch media, stating Eurostar wants to increase capacity from the Netherlands from 200 to 600 passengers by enlarging the terminals.

Tbf it doesn't contradict the information - Eurostar wants to sell the seats, but it can't handle the passengers in time. Eurostar said they want to add another London-Amsterdam round trip as well as make better use of the seats.

St Pancras could be speeded up by having more E-gates and making sure the remaining booths are fully manned. But the actual lounge itself is usually rammed full even off-peak.

 

[StephenHunter]

Tbf it doesn't contradict the information - Eurostar wants to sell the seats, but it can't handle the passengers in time. Eurostar said they want to add another London-Amsterdam round trip as well as make better use of the seats.

St Pancras could be speeded up by having more E-gates and making sure the remaining booths are fully manned. But the actual lounge itself is usually rammed full even off-peak.

Can you build extra facilities above the tracks?

 

[DanielB]

@zwk500 : Well, I suppose those 600 passengers from the Netherlands also want to travel back from St. Pancras at some time. That doesn't fit when you leave 350 of 900 seats empty, as only 550 remain then

 

[zwk500]

Can you build extra facilities above the tracks?

Not easily, and certainly not without ruining the view. I think what may be possible is to move the 'premier' lanes/lounge to the upper level somehow.

@zwk500 : Well, I suppose those 600 passengers from the Netherlands also want to travel back from St. Pancras at some time. That doesn't fit when you leave 350 of 900 seats empty, as only 550 remain then

Hence the extra train Do you know if the final plan with Amsterdam is to stay at Central? I heard talk of moving to South but couldn't work out if that was permanent or just to ease pressure during the rebuild.

 

[TheGrew]

Not easily, and certainly not without ruining the view. I think what may be possible is to move the 'premier' lanes/lounge to the upper level somehow.

Yeah, I was looking at this too. I feel like the 'logical' way to do this would be to use the current lounge space for increased border facilities and find somewhere else for the lounge. I think unfortunately though the only space I can think to put it is above the trains thereby spoiling the view down the trainshed.
Alternatively we could just join Schengen and be done with it all
As an aside, I wonder how much space there is at Stratford. Maybe they could fill up the trains by doing some border processing there?

 

[StephenHunter]

Yeah, I was looking at this too. I feel like the 'logical' way to do this would be to use the current lounge space for increased border facilities and find somewhere else for the lounge. I think unfortunately though the only space I can think to put it is above the trains thereby spoiling the view down the trainshed.
Alternatively we could just join Schengen and be done with it all
As an aside, I wonder how much space there is at Stratford. Maybe they could fill up the trains by doing some border processing there?

They put some space there I believe.

 

[zwk500]

Yeah, I was looking at this too. I feel like the 'logical' way to do this would be to use the current lounge space for increased border facilities and find somewhere else for the lounge. I think unfortunately though the only space I can think to put it is above the trains thereby spoiling the view down the trainshed.

You could put it above the modern extension I suppose

Alternatively we could just join Schengen and be done with it all

Ha! That'll be the day...

As an aside, I wonder how much space there is at Stratford. Maybe they could fill up the trains by doing some border processing there?

Stratford never got the border equipment fitted, if you were spreading the load you would reopen Ebbsfleet or Ashford but they've made it clear they don't want to do that.

 

[DanielB]

Do you know if the final plan with Amsterdam is to stay at Central? I heard talk of moving to South but couldn't work out if that was permanent or just to ease pressure during the rebuild.

Final plan is to move to South. But the whole "Zuidasdok" project, which involves putting the A10 motorway underground to create space for an additional island platform at Amsterdam Zuid station, is severely delayed due to problems with the tender for its construction.
That's why they are looking into moving the Eurostar terminal to one of the tunnels under Amsterdam Central. They'll need that temporary solution as the current terminal is not only too small, but it's also standing in the way for the rebuild of Amsterdam Central with less tracks and wider platforms.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yeah, I was looking at this too. I feel like the 'logical' way to do this would be to use the current lounge space for increased border facilities and find somewhere else for the lounge. I think unfortunately though the only space I can think to put it is above the trains thereby spoiling the view down the trainshed.

The issue is the processing capacity rather than the size of the terminal isn't it?

Could always kick out the sushi place that's located outside the top end of the terminal and put an extra bank of check ins there, so check ins at both end of the terminal but still feeding in to the same lounge area as at present...

 

[d70g]

The issue is the processing capacity rather than the size of the terminal isn't it?

Could always kick out the sushi place that's located outside the top end of the terminal and put an extra bank of check ins there, so check ins at both end of the terminal but still feeding in to the same lounge area as at present...

Processing capacity (Eurostar terminals were never intended to be the border between EU and "sovereign" UK), but also labour shortages, which underline the need for a political solution rather than simply expanding infrastructure, per the OP's link to the Guardian article.

 

[Starmill]

There's little Eurostar can do about the lack of Schengen border guards. They have the number they are provided with under the agreement on the juxtaposed controls and they have to make do. There is absolutely nothing Eurostar can do to make them process Schengen entries more quickly.

Thus, although expanding the number of passport gates or booths and increasing waiting space would help the customer experience, it fundamentally wouldn't change anything.

If Eurostar sell those seats, people will miss their trains. What then? It is what it is - and it's one reason why without the merger Eurostar might genuinely not have survived.

 

[zwk500]

There's little Eurostar can do about the lack of Schengen border guards. They have the number they are provided with under the agreement on the juxtaposed controls and they have to make do. There is absolutely nothing Eurostar can do to make them process Schengen entries more quickly.

Surely there must be some mechanism to change the number of border guards allocated, if there are spare booths available? I do accept that if E* are paying for the additional border guards it may not make sense.

Eurostar don't control it, but Schengen and UK borders could make the use of e-gates easier for non-citizens. Last time I went through St Pancras only 1 Schengen entry e-gate was working.

Thus, although expanding the number of passport gates or booths and increasing waiting space would help the customer experience, it fundamentally wouldn't change anything.

If increased gates/booths were staffed (linked to my first point) then the total passenger processing rate would increase.

 

[duesselmartin]

I guess you could open check in earlier to take the strain at border controls. In St. P you still have the seating issue. In Brussels it should work out.
One does wonder if the planners of St. P had any increase in capacity in mind.
I have been in St. P on the 31.12 for Brussels and despite being early I had only standing space. Once the Paris trained borded, the passengers for the next Paris train was let in and the terminal was full again.
In terms of comfort and ease of usage, Eurostar lost all advantages over air travel.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

It seems to me Eurostar's own "run as few trains as possible with as many passengers as possible" strategy is partly to blame here.
At 0949 a 17 coach train leaves Brussels for London. Then 3 hours later, at 1256, another 17 coach train.

They're trying to run an airline and not a railway, but the trouble is, they don't have an airport and they can't build one.

 

[zwk500]

I guess you could open check in earlier to take the strain at border controls. In St. P you still have the seating issue. In Brussels it should work out.
One does wonder if the planners of St. P had any increase in capacity in mind.
I have been in St. P on the 31.12 for Brussels and despite being early I had only standing space. Once the Paris trained borded, the passengers for the next Paris train was let in and the terminal was full again.
In terms of comfort and ease of usage, Eurostar lost all advantages over air travel.

I disagree. I find it much easier to get to St Pancras than any of the airports, and also appreciate the much smoother check-in process, particularly boarding. Additionally, I fit in a Eurostar seat whilst I have never found an economy seat that properly fits my knees. It's also much nicer on arrival to be able to walk literally off the end of the platform and onto your onward connections or into the city.
20 minutes in the cramped departure lounge is hardly the worst thing in the world. In my experience Brussels has capacity for ~1 train at a time in the lounge, so could handle hourly departures.

It seems to me Eurostar's own "run as few trains as possible with as many passengers as possible" strategy is partly to blame here.
At 0949 a 17 coach train leaves Brussels for London. Then 3 hours later, at 1256, another 17 coach train.

The capacity of the train is the same though, and the issue is processing a train load of passengers. Arguably running trains further apart should make it easier to run the trains full, as you can check people in over a longer time.

They're trying to run an airline and not a railway, but the trouble is, they don't have an airport and they can't build one.

They have the airports they needed when all countries were part of the EU. The issue is the planners never envisaged that the UK might choose to leave the EU.

 

[TheGrew]

I wonder if they could redistribute between departures and arrivals at St Pancras. I feel as though the arrivals area (especially post Disney cancellation) has more space than needed.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder if they could redistribute between departures and arrivals at St Pancras. I feel as though the arrivals area (especially post Disney cancellation) has more space than needed.

The only significant space is the customs area, which is required for all trains. The only way you can realistically increase the size of the terminal at St Pancras would be to take over some retail units.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The capacity of the train is the same though, and the issue is processing a train load of passengers. Arguably running trains further apart should make it easier to run the trains full, as you can check people in over a longer time.

Q: Then why don't they solve the problem by checking in over a longer time? A: Because they can't tell everyone to turn up 3 hours before departure.

They have the airports they needed when all countries were part of the EU. The issue is the planners never envisaged that the UK might choose to leave the EU.

Airports can usually expand and adapt when circumstances change, due to having plenty of space. Eurostar terminals cannot be expanded due to the city centre location which is part of their appeal in the first place.

Additionally, I fit in a Eurostar seat whilst I have never found an economy seat that properly fits my knees. It's also much nicer on arrival to be able to walk literally off the end of the platform and onto your onward connections or into the city.

It's a side point, but as a tall person(195cm), I find the E* seat pitch apalling, for a supposedly premium long distance service. It is not possible for me to sit straight in the seat, as my thigh bones are literally longer than the available space. All German regional trains have larger seat pitch in which I can sit comfortably, and ICE's are far bigger. To top it all off, E* has a special reservation rule that lone travellers cannot book table seats.
When I can afford it, I book Standard Premium just to avoid the literal pain of sitting in the seat.

 

[zwk500]

Q: Then why don't they solve the problem by checking in over a longer time? A: Because they can't tell everyone to turn up 3 hours before departure.

Indeed. But running more trains closer together doesn't solve that problem.

Airports can usually expand and adapt when circumstances change, due to having plety of space. Eurostar terminals cannot be expanded due to the city centre location which is oart of their appeal in the first place.

Well the London terminal has expanded once, when it moved from Waterloo to Eurostar. The issue at St Pancras is that they tried to squeeze the life out of the retail and cut into the terminal space.

It's a side point, but as a tall person(195cm), I find the E* seat pitch apalling, for a supposedly premium long distance service. It is not possible for me to sit straight in the seat, as my thigh bones are literally longer than the available space. All German regional trains have larger seat pitch in which I can sit comfortable, and ICE's are far bigger.

195cm is very tall though. I'm 183cm and don't have a problem at all. E* is better seat pitch than any UK train, and better than most Belgian or Dutch trains I've used. I've only used the ICE once and don't remember the seat pitch specifically.

To top it all off, E* has a special reservation rule that lone travellers cannot book table seats.

No it doesn't, I amended my reservations last time I used the Eurostar specifically to be on a table and was absolutely fine.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Indeed. But running more trains closer together doesn't solve that problem.

Of course it does.

If it takes 3 hours to check in 18 coaches of worth of people, then you need to start 3 hours before departure. If you run three 6 coach trains instead and it takes 1 hour to check people in, the first people need to be there 1 hour before their own departure.

 

[zwk500]

Of course it does.

If it takes 3 hours to check in 18 coaches of worth of people, then you need to start 3 hours before departure. If you run three 6 coach trains instead and it takes 1 hour to check people in, the first people need to be there 1 hour before their own departure.

But it doesn't take 3 hours to check in 18 coaches of people. An e320 takes 900 people, and the passenger processing capacity is currently estimated at 1,500/hr (down from 2,200/hr pre-brexit). The issue is overloading that by running 2 900-people trains too close together.

 

[leshuttle]

The last time I travelled out of the chaos at St Pancras to Brussels, I waved my Irish passport to someone official calling out for EU passports, narrowly close to my train's departure time. I was then directed out of the long queue before passport control to use the ePassport gates instead, and got through in no time.

What confuses me is, why can't there be a separate check-in/security line signposted at St Pancras for EU citizens to use the ePassport gates? That would surely reduce the queues somewhat to allow a few more seats to be sold?

 

[zwk500]

The last time I travelled out of the chaos at St Pancras to Brussels, I waved my Irish passport to someone official calling out for EU passports, narrowly close to my train's departure time. I was then directed out of the long queue before passport control to use the ePassport gates instead, and got through in no time.

What confuses me is, why can't there be a separate check-in/security line signposted at St Pancras for EU citizens to use the ePassport gates? That would surely reduce the queues somewhat to allow a few more seats to be sold?

Last time I was there, they had 5 e-gates gates but only 1 was working on the side I was queuing. The St Pancras signage could certainly be a lot clearer. The staff are quite good about moving people through the queues though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What confuses me is, why can't there be a separate check-in/security line signposted at St Pancras for EU citizens to use the ePassport gates? That would surely reduce the queues somewhat to allow a few more seats to be sold?

i suspect it's political. EU citizens being prioritised at a UK terminal would not be politically acceptable. Also a lack of space.

 

[zwk500]

i suspect it's political. EU citizens being prioritised at a UK terminal would not be politically acceptable. Also a lack of space.

They have the gates, and EU citizens can use them (indeed staff encourage you to do so). They're just really badly signed. It's not as if there's nowhere to put the signs either, given the roof and iron columns.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. But running more trains closer together doesn't solve that problem.

Well the London terminal has expanded once, when it moved from Waterloo to Eurostar. The issue at St Pancras is that they tried to squeeze the life out of the retail and cut into the terminal space.

St Pancras was designed to be one of two London terminals. It was Eurostars decision to close Waterloo International to save money. Theres still 7 miles of expensive ac electrified railway in Kent plus a high speed junction quietly rusting away as testimony.

 

[zwk500]

St Pancras was designed to be one of two London terminals. It was Eurostars decision to close Waterloo International to save money. Theres still 7 miles of expensive ac electrified railway in Kent plus a high speed junction quietly rusting away as testimony.

AIUI that part of the plan was dropped very quickly, so St Pancras was known to be the sole London terminal for quite some time.