Eurostar running trains with empty seats

[duncanp]

Perhaps Eurostar could offer significantly cheaper fares on those days of the week/times of the day when it is less busy, in order to encourage people to travel at those times.

I do think that spacing out departure times from St Pancras would definitely help, as would re-opening Ebbsfleet and Ashford, even if only to a small extent.

Allowing UK passport holders to use the Schengen E-gates at St Pancras would help, provided that all the e-gates are operational, and they can process people in a short space of time.

I have used Eurostar twice sinc Brexit, and don't think there is a significant increase in the time taken at French border control.

Coming back from Lille, they can get away with opening the check in just 1 hour before departure, and closing it ten minutes before the train arrives.

 

[Jimini]

I'm sure I've read on here before that the departures are bunched together deliberately to maximise capacity in the Channel Tunnel. By sending two E* trains through at higher speed in quick succession means there's more lower speed capacity for freight, Eurotunnel services etc.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps Eurostar could offer significantly cheaper fares on those days of the week/times of the day when it is less busy, in order to encourage people to travel at those times.

They already sell out the off-peak trains. Advances start at £40 for some trains, and only increase as the train gets busier.

I do think that spacing out departure times from St Pancras would definitely help, as would re-opening Ebbsfleet and Ashford, even if only to a small extent.

Spacing out at St Pancras yes, but re-opening both Kent stations is only worth it if it actually is going to solve the problem.

Coming back from Lille, they can get away with opening the check in just 1 hour before departure, and closing it ten minutes before the train arrives.

A lot fewer people are boarding at Lille though.

I'm sure I've read on here before that the departures are bunched together deliberately to maximise capacity in the Channel Tunnel. By sending two E* trains through at higher speed in quick succession means there's more lower speed capacity for freight, Eurotunnel services etc.

It certainly helps.

 

[Starmill]

If they are processing 1500 people per hour, then 900 people should only take 35 minutes. How many passport control booths are there at St Pancras? Assuming each person takes 15 seconds to check, then each booth could process 240 people per hour. Six booths would be 1440 people per hour.

Incidentally, the only time I've used an E-gate, I got stuck in the damn thing for five minutes. They tried to reboot it but that didn't work. They had to find a manager with a master key to let me out.

To allow two fully booked or even (102% - 105% over-booked trains) to depart half an hour apart you'd need double the train capacity to be processed per hour, plus a margin of 15 - 20% to allow for any unusal cases that take an extra few minutes, and to plan to have everyone through the controls, up to the platforms, and onboard the train no later than 4 minutes before booked time. You could cut the allowances finer but it would hardly be worth the performance risk, if Eurostar choose to delay their departure by 15 minutes, that, and any direct reactions to it, will be on them. If a Eurostar train doesn't present within a few minutes of booked time at the Tunnel boundary there's a high chance of it being held outside it for one or more Shuttles, so consistently leaving St Pancras 10 minutes late really isn't an option. Late arrivals from the Continent can also cause Southeastern services to be held before gaining HS1.

 

[duncanp]

A lot fewer people are boarding at Lille though.

You would be surprised.

The depature lounge is quite often full, at least when I haved used it, and that can typically mean 200+ people.

 

[zwk500]

You would be surprised.

The depature lounge is quite often full, at least when I haved used it, and that can typically mean 200+ people.

200 is still a lot less than 600 or 900.

 

[30907]

I'm sure I've read on here before that the departures are bunched together deliberately to maximise capacity in the Channel Tunnel. By sending two E* trains through at higher speed in quick succession means there's more lower speed capacity for freight, Eurotunnel services etc.

They were pathed in pairs. Fairly rare now to use both of a pair, but xx01 and xx16 (they must have negotiated the xx16 paths specially to get decent times to Amsterdam) is particularly problematic. That seems to be implied by ES speaking of the early morning trains as particularly problematic. One suspects there are also more who turn up close to check-in time at 0600 than at 1100

 

[mike57]

A lot fewer people are boarding at Lille though.

Will this change with the loss of Marne-le-Vallee direct service? We have travelled through Lille a couple of times, its much easier for onward destinations in France if you make your connection there rather than going through Paris, but as we know SNCF are not fans of clockface timetables, so connection times can be off putting. Will the Disneyland crowd opt for a change at Lille or go to Gare du Nord and then get RER B changing to RER A once the direct service finishes? If travelling with children I suspect even a longish wait at Lille woud be preferable to RER B and A which can get very busy, and unless you are familar with the RATP website buying tickets in advance is a problem. Gare du Nord can be quite intimidating if you are not familiar with it.

 

[zwk500]

Will this change with the loss of Marne-le-Vallee direct service?

I don't know. It will partly depend when Disneyland and Eurostar put on their website. The canny travellers will probably change at Lille - I certainly wouldn't want to try and get big bags and small children safely on to the RER at Gare du Nord when there is a straightforward alternative. However I can see Eurostar advising people to go all the way to Paris and use the much more frequent RER services.
However the Marne-le-Vallee services were only a handful a day, and holiday makers are unlikely to be travelling at peak times so I don't think it'll make much difference to the empty seats question.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will the Disneyland crowd opt for a change at Lille or go to Gare du Nord and then get RER B changing to RER A once the direct service finishes?

They’ll mostly opt for easyJet or the A1.

 

[RT4038]

They’ll mostly opt for easyJet or the A1.

Quite. The A1 by coach or by car.

 

[paul1609]

They’ll mostly opt for easyJet or the A1.

or Virgin Atlantic to Florida, much better value and weather.

 

[Bald Rick]

or Virgin Atlantic to Florida, much better value and weather.

hmm.

having done both, Florida is great but you need at least a week, preferably two. Family of four, school hol times, you’re looking at £6k for a week minimum, £7-8k for a fortnight. Disneyland Paris is doable in 2-3 days; for a family of 4 maybe £2k.

I agree that Florida is better value, but many people don’t have that sort of money.

(and it was hotter in Paris when I went compared to Orlando!)

 

[StephenHunter]

Allowing UK passport holders to use the Schengen E-gates at St Pancras would help, provided that all the e-gates are operational, and they can process people in a short space of time.

Isn't that the plan once ETIAS starts?

 

[mike57]

They’ll mostly opt for easyJet or the A1.

Travelling with hyped up youngsters by car can be quite a challenge, somehow train seems to be more calming. We have a niece in Peterborough, and she is taking her son in a few weeks, its a around 8hr to drive, without stops or traffic, the direct train, even allowing for extra check in time at St Pancras is less. EasyJet is a possibility but it is (I think) Gatwick - Paris Beauvais, which gives longer transfers at either end, and coach is an even longer journey time.

This is the sort of journey where train really should be the obvious choice. I can understand the issue with staffing stations for one through train per day, but making sure connections work at Lille Europe shouldn't be difficult.

 

[Bald Rick]

Travelling with hyped up youngsters by car can be quite a challenge, somehow train seems to be more calming.

It was the opposite with my kids, much easier for them in the car.

We have a niece in Peterborough, and she is taking her son in a few weeks, its a around 8hr to drive, without stops or traffic

She’s doing it wrong then. I was 4.5 hours driving from St Albans, plus an Hour and a half for the shuttle Including a lengthy visit to the ‘service station’ part.

EasyJet is a possibility but it is (I think) Gatwick - Paris Beauvais, which gives longer transfers at either end, and coach is an even longer journey time.

Luton to CDG (just up the road from Disney) 3-4 times a day.

 

[paul1609]

Peterborough to Disneyland by car without traffic or stops would be under 7 hours obviously thats not practical with kids but the Direct train would be about the same with the check in. Changing at Lille by train (or in Paris) would be slower by train than by car via the tunnel for most people in my experience.

 

[mike57]

Luton to CDG (just up the road from Disney) 3-4 times a day.

If you can get the TGV from CDG to Disneyland its only 10 mins, about 20euro single, and there is roughly 1tph (but not clockface with some gaps). I know you have to book TGV in advance, but I assume if you book tickets as soon as you land and know your timing you will be fine as there are no prem fares on a short hop like this. Alternative is Line B/Line A RER which is a well over an hour, so even if you have an hours wait the TGV direct is probably easier. She wouldn't consider driving, but once direct train finishes flying may be the best option. Her Mum would take her to Luton. This has to be one of the shortest TGV hops, I've been on trains calling at both stations and it hardly gets to linespeed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Peterborough to Disneyland by car without traffic or stops would be under 7 hours obviously thats not practical with kids but the Direct train would be about the same with the check in. Changing at Lille by train (or in Paris) would be slower by train than by car via the tunnel for most people in my experience.

I’d argue it is possible without stops, other than the shuttle terminal which is ideally placed for a decent break mid way. Certainly that’s what we did; 90 mins to the tunnel, an hour there, then a bit less than 3 hours from Calais to Mickey.

 

[paul1609]

I’d argue it is possible without stops, other than the shuttle terminal which is ideally placed for a decent break mid way. Certainly that’s what we did; 90 mins to the tunnel, an hour there, then a bit less than 3 hours from Calais to Mickey.

Your probably right. I don't have kids so was being conservative.
I have an account with Eurotunnel so normally get offered the next shuttle by ANPR. I don't think Ive ever been in either terminal living relatively close.

 

[Citybreak1]

Ryanair makes £2 million a day and sells 93% of seats. Let that sink in.

Time for a rethink on this empty seat policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ryanair makes £2 million a day and sells 93% of seats. Let that sink in.

Time for a rethink on this empty seat policy.

You know why it is, right? Did you read the first posting?

 

[Trainbike46]

Ryanair makes £2 million a day and sells 93% of seats. Let that sink in.

Time for a rethink on this empty seat policy.

Eurostar limits the numbers of seats available from stations because of limited capacity at stations. This wasn't a thing before brexit, and if/when the border troubles get sorted, will end in all likelihood.

Whatever ryanair does is of no relevance, in no small part because their planes are significantly smaller than and e320, and that airports tend to have more space for border controls etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ryanair makes £2 million a day and sells 93% of seats. Let that sink in.

Time for a rethink on this empty seat policy.

Ryanair also runs nearly 100 x more daily flights than Eurostar services. And is also rubbish. Let that sink in.

 

[joncombe]

I used Eurostar in the summer and the capacity problems seemed to be largely passport control but only half the booths were manned. As a result trains were being delayed waiting for passengers to clear the border controls. Eurostar were also printing on the tickets that they recommend you arrive 90 minutes before departure but if you did refused to let you even join the queue more than an hour beforehand. It seemed very poorly managed but I suspect a lot of the problems could be avoided if passport booths were fully manned.

I used it again just over a week ago again with two departures fairly close together and this time all the passport booths were manned and whilst the trains looked pretty full it was working much better with trains leaving on time. Then the only problem was the badly overcrowded departure lounge but I feel that could also be improved by allowing passengers on board more than 10 minutes before departure as many would then leave the lounge.

Airports don't seem to be struggling to anything like the same extent. I know early summer was a problem but since then most airports don't seem to be taking longer now than before Brexit. Heathrow and Schiphol I think did have to cut some flights due to staff shortage but that seems to have settled down now and in the case of Schiphol at least Brexit won't have been the cause so I am surprised it is having such an impact at St Pancras.

I don't think Eurostar are really helping themselves though with Ashford and Ebbsfleet both closed forcing all passengers into London then complaining that the terminal there cannot cope.

 

[philg999]

Prior to Brexit there weren’t complaints about capacity issues at St Pancras. Is the waiting area significantly smaller now or is the basic problem that there just is not enough time for 900 people to clear passport control anymore in the time between 1 train departing for a destination and the next? (or 1800 if there is a pair of Brussels and Paris ones).

Quite why they ever thought a 200-capacity waiting room was big enough for Amsterdam I’ll never know. Or was the intention all along to take 200 on in Amsterdam, 200 in Rotterdam and 400 in Brussels?

 

[StephenHunter]

Prior to Brexit there weren’t complaints about capacity issues at St Pancras. Is the waiting area significantly smaller now or is the basic problem that there just is not enough time for 900 people to clear passport control anymore in the time between 1 train departing for a destination and the next? (or 1800 if there is a pair of Brussels and Paris ones).

Quite why they ever thought a 200-capacity waiting room was big enough for Amsterdam I’ll never know.

There were queues into the concourse back in 2019.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Then the only problem was the badly overcrowded departure lounge but I feel that could also be improved by allowing passengers on board more than 10 minutes before departure as many would then leave the lounge.

They never seem to start boarding until the check in for the specific train is closed; I'm not quite sure why that should be the case. It would, as you say, help things greatly in terms of lounge capacity if they started the boarding ten minutes sooner than they do.

 

[zwk500]

but I feel that could also be improved by allowing passengers on board more than 10 minutes before departure as many would then leave the lounge.

Boarding is normally 20 minutes before departure.

Airports don't seem to be struggling to anything like the same extent. I know early summer was a problem but since then most airports don't seem to be taking longer now than before Brexit. Heathrow and Schiphol I think did have to cut some flights due to staff shortage but that seems to have settled down now and in the case of Schiphol at least Brexit won't have been the cause so I am surprised it is having such an impact at St Pancras.

Airports have a lot higher throughput of passengers and accordingly a lot higher staffing levels. Staffing the extra desks involves paying PAF for the privilege of doing so.

I don't think Eurostar are really helping themselves though with Ashford and Ebbsfleet both closed forcing all passengers into London then complaining that the terminal there cannot cope.

I think if it was such a simple solution they'd have announced they were looking to reopen them in the spring or whenever.

Prior to Brexit there weren’t complaints about capacity issues at St Pancras. Is the waiting area significantly smaller now or is the basic problem that there just is not enough time for 900 people to clear passport control anymore in the time between 1 train departing for a destination and the next? (or 1800 if there is a pair of Brussels and Paris ones).

There waiting room hasn't changed size, and there were regularly complaints about queue times before 2019 but it was manageable. What has happened is each passport now takes a few extra seconds to check against the databases. Across 1000 people that adds up.

Quite why they ever thought a 200-capacity waiting room was big enough for Amsterdam I’ll never know. Or was the intention all along to take 200 on in Amsterdam, 200 in Rotterdam and 400 in Brussels?

Amsterdam Centraal was always a temporary solution. The original plan had been to move to Amsterdam Zuid when that rebuild opened, but it's been delayed.

 

[Trainbike46]

Prior to Brexit there weren’t complaints about capacity issues at St Pancras. Is the waiting area significantly smaller now or is the basic problem that there just is not enough time for 900 people to clear passport control anymore in the time between 1 train departing for a destination and the next? (or 1800 if there is a pair of Brussels and Paris ones).

Quite why they ever thought a 200-capacity waiting room was big enough for Amsterdam I’ll never know. Or was the intention all along to take 200 on in Amsterdam, 200 in Rotterdam and 400 in Brussels?

The current waiting room in Amsterdam was always intended to be temporary, and was simply the largest that fit in the current space