Eurostar running trains with empty seats

[zwk500]

And ORR figures do not include Eurostar anyway.

Eurostar passengers in 2006 (last full year of Waterloo) were 7.85 million. By 2019 (last full year before Covid) numbers had risen to 11.1 million. An increase of almost 40%.

What was the rise from 1994 to 2006?

 

[Peterthegreat]

What was the rise from 1994 to 2006?

Eurostar only operated for 6 weeks in 1994.

 

[duesselmartin]

They were unable due to staff shortage, but in the mean time newly hired staff has completed its training so the issue is resolved.

At Aberdeen Airport the Gate staff checked my German passport for leaving the UK on the Amsterdam flight. UK passports were not checked.

 

[zwk500]

Eurostar only operated for 6 weeks in 1994.

'95 then...

 

[StephenHunter]

Seat 61 says that Eurostar are going to trial online check-in later this year.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Seat 61 says that Eurostar are going to trial online check-in later this year.

And increase the number of passport lanes from 7 to 9.

 

[AdamWW]

Seat 61 says that Eurostar are going to trial online check-in later this year.

I'm curious about that, given that "checking in" consists of using your ticket to get through a barrier. And you can print that ticket at home.

 

[zwk500]

Seat 61 says that Eurostar are going to trial online check-in later this year.

How do they scan your bags over the internet?

 

[LLivery]

I'm curious about that, given that "checking in" consists of using your ticket to get through a barrier. And you can print that ticket at home.

I assume it's like Easy Jet, etc. You check-in online and then you just turn up at the airport, drop your bag off, head to security, then you're in duty free. Fail to see much point of this for Eurostar, especially as border control is before you travel.

 

[AdamWW]

I assume it's like Easy Jet, etc. You check-in online and then you just turn up at the airport, drop your bag off, head to security, then you're in duty free. Fail to see much point of this for Eurostar, especially as border control is before you travel.

And at the moment with Eurostar you buy your ticket on-line then just turn up to the station to go through a barrier then security and passport control. What else moves on-line?

 

[zwk500]

I presume that what they are trying to do is move some of the passport checks earlier in the process, so that physically scanning each passport at the terminal takes less time. It may or may not be connected to the online visa-waiver for the EU that is coming in soon.

 

[Failed Unit]

A little while ago I took part in a trail where they used facial recognition to speed up some of the process. It think it was called smart check. I don’t recall if I scanned my ticket (pretty sure I did) and the UK boarder checks was done by facial recognition. The French side was still show and stamp. I guess if technology could help here then that would be a good thing, but it will be interesting if both countries can work together here. The Smart check only worked from UK to France.

To me if they can use technology to speed up the passport checks that will help, but the baggage checks are the biggest issues (always seems worse in France). I have found the lounge at St Pancras is very full at times now (when Amsterdam and Paris are in at the same time) But things are a lot better now, I defiantly haven‘t travelled on many empty trains.

It may be one for a different thread but why do they still need to scan the baggage? It takes up so much space for a low risk target. (unless the scanning isn’t for terrorist prevention). But a normal train carrys as many passengers as a Eurostar so in terms of a “target” why would you pick a Eurostar over a rush hour 12 car commuter train? Be interesting to see what they do, in particular after the change in passport rules. It is a pity London - Paris no longer is hourly.

 

[D6130]

It may or may not be connected to the online visa-waiver for the EU that is coming in soon.

A small - and some may say rather pedantic - point: The forthcoming online visa waiver is not for visiting EU countries, but for the Schengen Area. Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Republic of Ireland and Romania are in the EU, but not in Schengen. Therefore the 90 days out of 180 rule will not apply to them if flying directly from the UK....rather than travelling overland - by rail or road. By the same token, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen Area, but not in the EU....therefore the 90 days out of 180 rule WILL apply to them. Because of the long-standing Common Travel Agreement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, persons travelling across the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic will also be exempt from the rule.

 

[zwk500]

A small - and some may say rather pedantic - point: The forthcoming online visa waiver is not for visiting EU countries, but for the Schengen Area. Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Republic of Ireland and Romania are in the EU, but not in Schengen. Therefore the 90 days out of 180 rule will not apply to them if flying directly from the UK....rather than travelling overland - by rail or road. By the same token, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen Area, but not in the EU....therefore the 90 days out of 180 rule WILL apply to them. Because of the long-standing Common Travel Agreement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, persons travelling across the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic will also be exempt from the rule.

It's a noteworthy point but Eurostar only operates to the Schengen zone and doesn't have any non-entry transits so the EU/Schengen distinction is not particularly relevant for this case.

I also believe only Eire has an actual opt-out, the other EU members are obligated to join when they meet the criteria (Romania and Bulgaria came very close to joining this year but were blocked).

 

[StephenHunter]

It may be one for a different thread but why do they still need to scan the baggage? It takes up so much space for a low risk target. (unless the scanning isn’t for terrorist prevention). But a normal train carrys as many passengers as a Eurostar so in terms of a “target” why would you pick a Eurostar over a rush hour 12 car commuter train? Be interesting to see what they do, in particular after the change in passport rules. It is a pity London - Paris no longer is hourly.

The nature of the terrorist threat has changed - you're more likely to have a mass stabbing attack now.

 

[duncanp]

I presume that what they are trying to do is move some of the passport checks earlier in the process, so that physically scanning each passport at the terminal takes less time. It may or may not be connected to the online visa-waiver for the EU that is coming in soon.

What could happen is that you are asked to enter your passport information at the time of booking.

Eurostar can then check the passport information against a database to see who has a valid ETIAS, and send a warning by e-mail to anyone without an ETIAS.

You can then set the check in gates at St Pancras to reject anyone who does not have an ETIAS, which will reduce queues for security and passport control.

This is similar to what happens when you check in for a flight to the United States.

Everyone, even those who have checked in online, has to get their passport checked to see whether there is a valid ESTA or Visa, and anyone who does not have an ESTA or Visa is not allowed to proceed any further.

 

[paul1609]

It may be one for a different thread but why do they still need to scan the baggage? It takes up so much space for a low risk target. (unless the scanning isn’t for terrorist prevention). But a normal train carrys as many passengers as a Eurostar so in terms of a “target” why would you pick a Eurostar over a rush hour 12 car commuter train? Be interesting to see what they do, in particular after the change in passport rules. It is a pity London - Paris no longer is hourly.

Its to do with the fire scenarios following a possible terrorist attack. Ill say no more but luggage checks aren't going away.

 

[duesselmartin]

Eurostar is a more prominant target than a commuter train. Increases the headlines. A stabbing in a Eurostar makes global headlines, a GWR commuter service from Oxford does not.

 

[StephenHunter]

Eurostar is a more prominant target than a commuter train. Increases the headlines. A stabbing in a Eurostar makes global headlines, a GWR commuter service from Oxford does not.

There was a stabbing on a Thalys in 2015:

2015 Thalys train attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That made global headlines too.

 

[Trainbike46]

To be fair I haven’t used it since Brexit. I will also concede that St Pancras visibly struggles with the numbers of Eurostar passengers using it at times.

Oh well, they will just have to adapt! Or, as you say, raise their prices.

replying here as off-topic in the other thread

One thing that I hope will happen is:

- close the arrivals lounge (possible when disneyland service ends)
- turn arrivals lounge into new Business premier lounge, with it's own security/passport checks
- Use existing business premier space for more space for checks and waiting for standard (premier) passengers

There was a suggestion that they were looking at ways to use the arrivals space for departures (edit: I tried looking for this but can't find it - I hope I didn't imagine it)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

Sort of stupid how constrained the space is given the money spent refurbing st pancras. Even without brexit it would have been a constraint to more services (especially by DB etc). It was never particularly great pre brexit either.

You'd hope someone would see sense and remove the security from it, that would open up a bit space. Totally mad that a person is scanned but you can take a lorry/van through with no problems!

Fully agree they should have made the departures area larger at St. Pancras!

Unfortunately, the security checks are not up to Eurostar, or even the railway at large. I don't think the government(s) are likely to move on that front

 

[Jozhua]

The nature of the terrorist threat has changed - you're more likely to have a mass stabbing attack now.

Yes, but airlines operate out of vast airports in the middle of nowhere have space for the larger number of border desks and larger queues post-brexit. St Pancras really does not. Having caught Eurostar a couple of time last year, the St. Pancras experience was horrible. They barely have enough capacity to handle their current loading, yet alone thinking about increasing them. And this chimes with statements from their CEO about how the only way they'll return to profitability is to raise their ticket prices rather than increase the number of trains.

Sort of stupid how constrained the space is given the money spent refurbing st pancras. Even without brexit it would have been a constraint to more services (especially by DB etc). It was never particularly great pre brexit either.

You'd hope someone would see sense and remove the security from it, that would open up a bit space. Totally mad that a person is scanned but you can take a lorry/van through with no problems!

It's true that Le Shuttle does not have the same level of security because doing so to full size vehicles is impractical. Eurostar is at higher level of threat, but so is the Tube for example.

It's an absolute shame that such a silly little issue is constraining incredibly eco friendly travel to the continent, for which the infrastructure has already been built.

Of course, some regional Eurostar services could help with this, but I'll not say too much more on that

Modernising the security approach could be a good compromise, getting rid of metal detectors in favour of microwave scanners and upgrading bag x-rays to 3D scanners (almost identical to CT scanners), which don't require you to unpack bags and take off belts, etc. This would make security flow much quicker and reduce the space required for it, while retaining the 'safety' aspect.

CT scanners are already being deployed at US airports:

3D scanners can 'digitally unpack' carry-ons and transform airport checkpoints with better, faster security

JFK will be getting a CT machine that produces\u00a0crisper images than standard X-rays and\u00a0can detect explosives by their density.

eu.usatoday.com

Millimetre Wave Scanned Technology Improvements (also at US airports lol)

Super-Fast Airport Scanners Are Coming—Eventually

They'll use AI and millimeter wave technology to speed you through the lines and even monitor crowds from afar.

www.wired.com

 

[mrmartin]

Yeah these are coming to UK airports as well (think LCY has some?). Actually a good point that this may reduce the space needed, which would allow more passport points and then Eurostar can't complain. But I have a feeling eurostar will be in no rush to do that (add more capacity); given the premium fares it is commanding atm.

 

[AdamWW]

Yeah these are coming to UK airports as well (think LCY has some?). Actually a good point that this may reduce the space needed, which would allow more passport points and then Eurostar can't complain. But I have a feeling eurostar will be in no rush to do that (add more capacity); given the premium fares it is commanding atm.

Hmm.

Less unpacking for a CAT scanner - but how long do you then wait while the operator spins the image around on their screen and zooms into to dodgy looking objects trying to work out what they're looking at?

And that article is a bit optimistic about mm-wave scanners (you still have to empty pockets, even the one described there takes a while to process each passenger, and they all have lots of false positives requiring hand searching. They may be more secure than metal detectors, but faster they aren't. (And a lot more expensive).

And is the limit on passport points the space for them, or the personnel to man them?

 

[philg999]

Hmm.

Less unpacking for a CAT scanner - but how long do you then wait while the operator spins the image around on their screen and zooms into to dodgy looking objects trying to work out what they're looking at?

And that article is a bit optimistic about mm-wave scanners (you still have to empty pockets, even the one described there takes a while to process each passenger, and they all have lots of false positives requiring hand searching. They may be more secure than metal detectors, but faster they aren't. (And a lot more expensive).

And is the limit on passport points the space for them, or the personnel to man them?

They’ve had CAT scanners in Amsterdam Schiphol for the last 3 years. They are a massive improvement over the old scanners and have led to a 3x increase in the throughout of the security checks.

The limit on passport queues is the significant cost to the French government (passed on to Eurostar) of giving expat relocation packages to border guards and their families. It’s also very difficult for them to find people willing to do it. You need 2-3 people to keep a desk staffed for the whole day.

 

[urbophile]

replying here as off-topic in the other thread

One thing that I hope will happen is:

- close the arrivals lounge (possible when disneyland service ends)
- turn arrivals lounge into new Business premier lounge, with it's own security/passport checks
- Use existing business premier space for more space for checks and waiting for standard (premier) passengers

I didn't know there was an arrivals lounge. What is the point of it? Don't passengers walk straight off the train onto the street or wherever?

 

[zwk500]

I didn't know there was an arrivals lounge. What is the point of it? Don't passengers walk straight off the train onto the street or wherever?

At St Pancras you wonder through an arrivals hall of sorts. It's used to check the Disneyland passengers passports as there was a separate agreement to exempt them from the normal juxtaposed controls. However it's fairly small and can't be easily integrated into the departures area. The Customs lanes would need to stay in any event.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I didn't know there was an arrivals lounge. What is the point of it? Don't passengers walk straight off the train onto the street or wherever?

There isn't although the arrivals area is probably bigger than need be and is being scaled back.

 

[Trainbike46]

At St Pancras you wonder through an arrivals hall of sorts. It's used to check the Disneyland passengers passports as there was a separate agreement to exempt them from the normal juxtaposed controls. However it's fairly small and can't be easily integrated into the departures area. The Customs lanes would need to stay in any event.

That is the area I meant. My thought was that, when disneyland service ends, you no longer need border control. As I think it is bigger than the existing business premier lounge, you could move that there, and expand the current departures waiting area and passports controls for the Standard (premier) passengers, leading to more capacity overall

 

[zero]

Modernising the security approach could be a good compromise, getting rid of metal detectors in favour of microwave scanners and upgrading bag x-rays to 3D scanners (almost identical to CT scanners), which don't require you to unpack bags and take off belts, etc. This would make security flow much quicker and reduce the space required for it, while retaining the 'safety' aspect.

You don't need to unpack bags for Eurostar anyway, and as for belts many don't actually set off the metal detectors if they only have a small amount of metal. In airports they want you to take them off because if you are randomly selected for the body scanner then the belt will show up as a lump on the screen.

That is the area I meant. My thought was that, when disneyland service ends, you no longer need border control. As I think it is bigger than the existing business premier lounge, you could move that there, and expand the current departures waiting area and passports controls for the Standard (premier) passengers, leading to more capacity overall

I've experienced an ad hoc additional passport check at St Pancras when arriving from Brussels.

 

[zwk500]

That is the area I meant. My thought was that, when disneyland service ends, you no longer need border control. As I think it is bigger than the existing business premier lounge, you could move that there, and expand the current departures waiting area and passports controls for the Standard (premier) passengers, leading to more capacity overall

You can't turn the entire space into a departure lounge as you still need the Customs lanes regardless. So you'd be squeezing the business lounge onto the side and need some complicated work to segregate arriving and departing passengers, for limited benefit given that the business lounge wouldn't release too much capacity for the standard departure lounge.