Eurostar running trains with empty seats

[mike57]

Prior to Brexit there weren’t complaints about capacity issues at St Pancras. Is the waiting area significantly smaller now or is the basic problem that there just is not enough time for 900 people to clear passport control anymore in the time between 1 train departing for a destination and the next? (or 1800 if there is a pair of Brussels and Paris ones).

I travelled through a number of times up to 2019, and it did get very busy. I dont think the problem is Brexit, more that staff were lost during covid and they have not been able to replace them. Its not just Eurostar or even the wider travel industry that are facing this problem, its widespread. Also people are now being told to turn up 90 mins before the train rather than the previous 45-60min before, but they are not being let through security until 1 hour before in general, so you have to 'park' 900 people for 30 mins, and even if you let them through they then need wait for maybe 45-60 mins rather than the previous 30 ish mins, so again you need bigger waiting areas.

It may sound conterproductive but I actually think St. Pancras would function better if they went back to the previous 45 mins advice and keep people moving

 

[duncanp]

I used Eurostar in the summer and the capacity problems seemed to be largely passport control but only half the booths were manned. As a result trains were being delayed waiting for passengers to clear the border controls. Eurostar were also printing on the tickets that they recommend you arrive 90 minutes before departure but if you did refused to let you even join the queue more than an hour beforehand. It seemed very poorly managed but I suspect a lot of the problems could be avoided if passport booths were fully manned.

I used it again just over a week ago again with two departures fairly close together and this time all the passport booths were manned and whilst the trains looked pretty full it was working much better with trains leaving on time. Then the only problem was the badly overcrowded departure lounge but I feel that could also be improved by allowing passengers on board more than 10 minutes before departure as many would then leave the lounge.

Airports don't seem to be struggling to anything like the same extent. I know early summer was a problem but since then most airports don't seem to be taking longer now than before Brexit. Heathrow and Schiphol I think did have to cut some flights due to staff shortage but that seems to have settled down now and in the case of Schiphol at least Brexit won't have been the cause so I am surprised it is having such an impact at St Pancras.

I don't think Eurostar are really helping themselves though with Ashford and Ebbsfleet both closed forcing all passengers into London then complaining that the terminal there cannot cope.

So a lot of the problems are due to bad management by Eurostar at St Pancras, and staff shortages by UK and/or French border control.

It is pointless to recommend that people arrive 90 minutes before departure if check is not open, and people are not allowed to join the queue. This just leads to lots of people hanging around the station, and a rush of people when check in for a service opens.

My experience with Eurostar over the years is that they can be very variable about when they open check in. Sometimes it can be as much as 90 minutes before departure, and other times it is as little as 45 minutes.

If Brexit is increasing processing time, then you need to make sure that all passport booths are manned, and allow sufficient time before departure to process everyone. I have used Eurostar twice since Brexit, and both times there was no noticeable increase in processing time.

Spacing out of train departures would also help, and if this is not possible due to pathing issues, if there are a group of departures close together, then check in should open 2 hours beforehand to even out the flow of passengers through the system.

There is no reason why UK passport holders shouldn't be able to use the e-gates at St Pancras, even before the ETIAS scheme starts, especially considering that citizens of EU member states are allowed to use the e-gates at Heathrow on arrival into the UK.

 

[Trainbike46]

So a lot of the problems are due to bad management by Eurostar at St Pancras, and staff shortages by UK and/or French border control.

I don't think the report you are replying to is representative of general operation at St Pancras today

It is pointless to recommend that people arrive 90 minutes before departure if check is not open, and people are not allowed to join the queue. This just leads to lots of people hanging around the station, and a rush of people when check in for a service opens.

I would also prefer if the recommendation went back to 45 minutes before departure, with check-in staying open until 30 minutes before departure (or later)

My experience with Eurostar over the years is that they can be very variable about when they open check in. Sometimes it can be as much as 90 minutes before departure, and other times it is as little as 45 minutes.

when they open check-in likely depends on how many other services are due to depart between now and your service's departure time

If Brexit is increasing processing time, then you need to make sure that all passport booths are manned, and allow sufficient time before departure to process everyone. I have used Eurostar twice since Brexit, and both times there was no noticeable increase in processing time.

except that is not entirely within Eurostar control; When the French/Dutch/Belgian/UK border force is unable (or unwilling) to deliver the requested number of officers, there's nothing Eurostar can do about it.

This was actually a factor in the timetable for Dutch services; about a year ago the Dutch border force was unable (or unwilling) to deliver more than 1 shift of staff each day, leading to a rather odd timetable where all services where within about six hours of each other (this has fortunately been resolved now)

Spacing out of train departures would also help, and if this is not possible due to pathing issues, if there are a group of departures close together, then check in should open 2 hours beforehand to even out the flow of passengers through the system.

And here we're back to why they recommend 90 minutes before departure

There is no reason why UK passport holders shouldn't be able to use the e-gates at St Pancras, even before the ETIAS scheme starts, especially considering that citizens of EU member states are allowed to use the e-gates at Heathrow on arrival into the UK.

Unfortunately, the way brexit was done means that it isn't possible for UK passport holders to use the e-gates, at least not before ETIAS

 

[duesselmartin]

Prior to Brexit there weren’t complaints about capacity issues at St Pancras. Is the waiting area significantly smaller now or is the basic problem that there just is not enough time for 900 people to clear passport control anymore in the time between 1 train departing for a destination and the next? (or 1800 if there is a pair of Brussels and Paris ones).

Quite why they ever thought a 200-capacity waiting room was big enough for Amsterdam I’ll never know. Or was the intention all along to take 200 on in Amsterdam, 200 in Rotterdam and 400 in Brussels?

St. Pancakes was overcrowded before brexit too. Searching for a seat, people blocking seats with luggage (as you need to keep them close by, they have to) has always been an issue. Brussels was better before that horrible duty free was added.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I caught the 0600 to Paris a few months back and checkin opened much closer to 45 minutes beforehand than 90. I don’t remember the exact time, but I was certainly cheesed off I could have spent longer in bed…

 

[Tetchytyke]

If Brexit is increasing processing time, then you need to make sure that all passport booths are manned

There is no reason why UK passport holders shouldn't be able to use the e-gates at St Pancras, even before the ETIAS scheme starts, especially considering that citizens of EU member states are allowed to use the e-gates at Heathrow on arrival into the UK

Eurostar can't force the French, Dutch and Belgian border agencies to magic up more staff, and they can't force these agencies to allow use of the e-gates. Border controls on Eurostar are juxtaposed, which is different to the airlines.

It's also worth noting that there aren't exit passport controls when leaving the UK, which again makes comparisons with Heathrow meaningless.

 

[D6130]

It's also worth noting that there aren't exit passport controls when leaving the UK, which again makes comparisons with Heathrow meaningless.

Really? Whenever I've departed from St Pancras on Eurostar, I've always had to show my passport to a UK Border Force officer before going through French frontier controls.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Really? Whenever I've departed from St Pancras on Eurostar, I've always had to show my passport to a UK Border Force officer before going through French frontier controls.

Except they are not Border Force officers.

 

[D6130]

Except they are not Border Force officers.

Who are they?....Eurostar staff?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Who are they?....Eurostar staff?

Agency staff. They may be associated with the company who do the (luggage) security checks.

 

[DanielB]

about a year ago the Dutch border force was unable (or unwilling) to deliver more than 1 shift of staff each day, leading to a rather odd timetable where all services where within about six hours of each other (this has fortunately been resolved now)

They were unable due to staff shortage, but in the mean time newly hired staff has completed its training so the issue is resolved.

 

[D6130]

Agency staff. They may be associated with the company who do the (luggage) security checks.

Ah....OK, thanks! So they're just checking passports on behalf of Eurostar?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Ah....OK, thanks! So they're just checking passports on behalf of Eurostar?

I think it would be more accurate to say they are checking passports on behalf of HM Government.

 

[D6130]

I think it would be more accurate to say they are checking passports on behalf of HM Government.

I thought that was the job of the Border Force!

 

[zwk500]

I thought that was the job of the Border Force!

Border force worry about people coming in (or staying here when they shouldn't) people leaving is more a police thing as the only reason you'd stop a person leaving the country is if they were wanted.

 

[RT4038]

I thought that was the job of the Border Force!

Much too expensive! In around 2013/4 there was a big hullabaloo in the press (and probably from the opposition benches) that the Government didn't know who was in the country, because hitherto checks were only carried out coming in. Knee jerk reaction was to introduce checks, but this was merely a gathering of the information of departing persons, not any kind of prevention or permission to leave. Govt decided it would be far cheaper to give this collection job to the carriers - all they are doing is recording who is departing. So now the Govt knows who is here : (a) those who have entered after their last exit; (b) those who have new passports issued to a UK address and have never left since the checks started; (c) those who have birth certificates and no passport ever issued; (d) an unknown no. who entered before 2014 and may have exited before checks started, or may not. Maybe there is a big list on a computer somewhere? Don't suppose it is that accurate!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah....OK, thanks! So they're just checking passports on behalf of Eurostar?

...sort of.

Eurostar are checking passports, just like airlines do when flying internationally. They do it because they have to. But it's not the border force doing it, it's the carrier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

St. Pancakes was overcrowded before brexit too. Searching for a seat, people blocking seats with luggage (as you need to keep them close by, they have to) has always been an issue.

I seem to recall Waterloo being bigger than St Pancras? If so, why did they think making it smaller would work?

Brussels was better before that horrible duty free was added.

That is horrid and totally inappropriate. I almost managed to go round the side (as the loading door was opened) and they shut it in my face.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2023 ==

...sort of.

Eurostar are checking passports, just like airlines do when flying internationally. They do it because they have to. But it's not the border force doing it, it's the carrier.

In essence it is used for two things - collecting advance passenger information, and a bit like the boarding check on a plane. Despite the signage it isn't really outbound passport control, which the UK doesn't have.

 

[ABB125]

Unfortunately, the way brexit was done means that it isn't possible for UK passport holders to use the e-gates, at least not before ETIAS

Interesting. I have a UK passport, and used the e-gates at St Pancras (and I think at Brussels as well) earlier this month; indeed, I was directed there by staff at St Pancras! However, my passport was also checked and stamped by a border guard* in a booth, so I'm not quite sure why I needed to go through the e-gate as well (can't remember if that was before or after the booth).


*I'm 99% certain this was the same border guard that stamped my passport last Easter!

 

[Peterthegreat]

Interesting. I have a UK passport, and used the e-gates at St Pancras (and I think at Brussels as well) earlier this month; indeed, I was directed there by staff at St Pancras! However, my passport was also checked and stamped by a border guard* in a booth, so I'm not quite sure why I needed to go through the e-gate as well (can't remember if that was before or after the booth).


*I'm 99% certain this was the same border guard that stamped my passport last Easter!

As was mine. The e-gates check your validity, the border guard (PAF officer) merely stamps the passport and doesn't need to do anything else.

 

[Bikeman78]

I travelled through a number of times up to 2019, and it did get very busy. I dont think the problem is Brexit, more that staff were lost during covid and they have not been able to replace them. Its not just Eurostar or even the wider travel industry that are facing this problem, its widespread. Also people are now being told to turn up 90 mins before the train rather than the previous 45-60min before, but they are not being let through security until 1 hour before in general, so you have to 'park' 900 people for 30 mins, and even if you let them through they then need wait for maybe 45-60 mins rather than the previous 30 ish mins, so again you need bigger waiting areas.

It may sound conterproductive but I actually think St. Pancras would function better if they went back to the previous 45 mins advice and keep people moving

Agreed. I travelled last year. I turned up 90 minutes early and joined the back of the long holding queue which stretched back past the shops and off towards the South Eastern platforms. Despite that, I got to the departure lounge in 45 minutes. Half that time elapsed before I got to the tail end of the official queue for my train. They would be better off suggesting people arrive 45 to 60 minutes before departure.

 

[zwk500]

Agreed. I travelled last year. I turned up 90 minutes early and joined the back of the long holding queue which stretched back past the shops and off towards the South Eastern platforms. Despite that, I got to the departure lounge in 45 minutes. Half that time elapsed before I got to the tail end of the official queue for my train. They would be better off suggesting people arrive 45 to 60 minutes before departure.

An e320 takes about 900 people, of which 220 are Standard Premier or Business, so let's discount those as they have a separate queue. Ticket gates close 30 minutes before departure, so if you advertised 60 minutes before departure you'd need 680 people through in 30 minutes, or 23 passenger per minute, which is about 2.5 seconds per passenger. It's theoretically possible with 5 e-gates and 2 desks (i.e. Half the E* check in, because the other half will be checking in passengers for a different train) IF, and this is a big if, there are absolutely no technical problems or people who need to be asked additional questions.

 

[philg999]

An e320 takes about 900 people, of which 220 are Standard Premier or Business, so let's discount those as they have a separate queue. Ticket gates close 30 minutes before departure, so if you advertised 60 minutes before departure you'd need 680 people through in 30 minutes, or 23 passenger per minute, which is about 2.5 seconds per passenger. It's theoretically possible with 5 e-gates and 2 desks (i.e. Half the E* check in, because the other half will be checking in passengers for a different train) IF, and this is a big if, there are absolutely no technical problems or people who need to be asked additional questions.

For non EU passengers the boarder guard has to find the most recent Schengen tourist entry and exit stamp and check they didn’t overstay. That takes longer than 2.5 seconds! More like 10. And also ask a couple of questions and stamp it. Though I guess that only needs to happen for half the passengers, the EU ones taking more like 2 seconds. And then if a visa national turns up it can easily add a few minutes delay. It will be much faster once the EU entry-exit system and ETIAS have both gone live.

 

[zwk500]

For non EU passengers the boarder guard has to find the most recent Schengen tourist entry and exit stamp and check they didn’t overstay. That takes longer than 2.5 seconds! More like 10. Though I guess that only needs to happen for half the passengers, the EU ones taking more like 2 seconds

That's a throughput of 1 passenger every 2.5 seconds, so if you had 2 desks taking 10 seconds each you'd have a throughput of 5 seconds. St Pancras has 4 or 5 e-gates and 2 desks per half, IIRC. The gates are about 10 seconds for each passenger, the desks can make the judgement but it's still about 5 seconds from one passenger to the next. If it's 5 gates at 10 seconds, that's 1 passenger every 2 seconds. If we assume the desks take an average of 8 seconds, that's 1 passenger every 4 seconds. So you'd have a mean around 2,.5-3 seconds.

 

[BahrainLad]

One of the ways airlines cut down on illegal arrivals into the UK (that they are fined for by UK Gov) is that they collect advance passenger information (APIS) before they issue a boarding pass, and crucially, they reconcile passport names and ticket names. Perhaps if Eurostar did this they might be able to expedite some checks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2023 ==

Also the reason they allow EU citizens to use the eGates at Heathrow for example is if they didn’t the whole thing would meltdown due the the sheer volume of people that would need to visit a desk. Another triumphant byproduct of “taking back control.”

 

[AdamWW]

For non EU passengers the boarder guard has to find the most recent Schengen tourist entry and exit stamp and check they didn’t overstay. That takes longer than 2.5 seconds! More like 10. And also ask a couple of questions and stamp it. Though I guess that only needs to happen for half the passengers, the EU ones taking more like 2 seconds. And then if a visa national turns up it can easily add a few minutes delay. It will be much faster once the EU entry-exit system and ETIAS have both gone live.

You can't tell if someone has overstayed just by looking at the last two stamps - you have to look back 180 days to see if cumulatively they were there for more than 90 days.

In my experience of visiting the EU since Brexit, if they were doing this sort of check, they were doing it very quickly.

But since the EU has outgoing passport control, wouldn't leaving the EU be the most sensible time to check if someone has overstayed?

 

[paul1609]

I seem to recall Waterloo being bigger than St Pancras? If so, why did they think making it smaller would work?

Because up until 3 years before it opened St Pancras was only going to be for Eurostar a second terminal in the Northern Suburbs for people connecting off the East Coast and midland Mainline. Waterloo International within stones throw of the Thames and in sight of of Big ben would have remained the main tourist draw. These are all commercial decisions that Eurostar have shot themselves in the foot with. Brexit is very much a sideshow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because up until 3 years before it opened St Pancras was only going to be for Eurostar a second terminal in the Northern Suburbs for people connecting off the East Coast and midland Mainline. Waterloo International within stones throw of the Thames and in sight of of Big ben would have remained the main tourist draw. These are all commercial decisions that Eurostar have shot themselves in the foot with. Brexit is very much a sideshow.

Interesting. How was Waterloo to have been connected to HS1?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Once authorised St Pancras was always going to be the main London station for Eurostar. Waterloo, if used, would only be the secondary station. Eurostar took the decision that operating two stations was not sensible as St Pancras could cope with projected volumes. St Pancras opened in 2007 well before anyone seriously proposed Brexit. To suggest Brexit is a side show is ludicrous.

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting. How was Waterloo to have been connected to HS1?

And would it have been "continental" loading gauge all the way?